791 replies to this topic

[XvDraxvX]

Merlevade, on 12 November 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

The Space Pope feels that LRMs are still useful support weapons and when he has been on LRM heavy teams the results have been rather wonderful.

Who stated officially that LRM's were supposed to be support weapons? Its never mentioned on the description of the weapon, and its never been stated by PGI.

Give me 1 solid link that clearly defines LRM's (not mechs who use LRM's) as "Support" weapons?

[Wispsy]

XvDraxvX, on 12 November 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Most and by Most i mean no good or decent player runs a XL on a Atlas so no a RT or LT shot will not Slay a Atlas.

Secondly your Heat example is 1 draw back maybe also Terrain and needing LOS.

I think we can Agree that with AMS, AMS Sharing, Heat, Needing a CONSTANT LOS or Spotter on target, Terrain, and a GIANT "INCOMING MISSILES" warning there are far more counters for LRM Fire. OH and the fact that like he said after 1000m our missiles blow up doing 0 DMG

If you think the heat from an erll and an lrm launcher are the same kind of drawback...it also is a dot so must be held in place on a moving target on a single component to be as effective.

That giant INCOMING MISSILES is also very good crowd control in a fight. If you are not facing really bad people then they will go and take cover.

Also broken los can often be more potent then maintained los, if you know how to use it....

AMS does chew through missiles quickly but it also goes through an enormous amount of ammo very quickly, whether you want it to or not. If you happen to be unlucky enough to be the sole lrmer against a team of 8 with ams then obviously it is going to be harder, yet you can still be effective, more or less so depending on your knowledge of your lrms and their ams etc. Are you saying AMS should be a requirement and even then ineffective against a dedicated lrmboat? that does not sound so balanced...

XvDraxvX, on 12 November 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

But again your assuming all missiles hit, the way it is now even on a stationary target, missiles with a solid lock are missing.

Well in my previous post I did admit that tag may be required if missiles only do 0.7 damage.

Edited by Wispsy, 12 November 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Dren Nas]

Scratx, on 12 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

You're clearly being shot at by people who immediately switch targets. Relocking does get the missiles in flight tracking you again.

Or you have no idea what you're talking about but I like to think you actually have a clue about LRM behaviour.

You're welcome to have your opinion about what you think I do or do not know, but I was in a match where people were launching volley after volley of LRMs at me. I would power up, fire my ER Large Lasers, move, then power down, and finally power back up, and continue moving again. As I powered up and started moving again the missiles would land where I was when I powered down time and time again.

Even though the two mechs were out of my ER Large Laser's effective range(they were around 750m away), I was managing to put more damage on them than the two of them were putting on me.

Do they retarget? I don't think so.

Are they supposed to? If you have read that in the rules and know for a fact they are supposed to, then sure.

[XvDraxvX]

Wispsy, on 12 November 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

That giant INCOMING MISSILES is also very good crowd control in a fight. If you are not facing really bad people then they will go and take cover.
Also broken los can often be more potent then maintained los, if you know how to use it....
AMS does chew through missiles quickly but it also goes through an enormous amount of ammo very quickly, whether you want it to or not. If you happen to be unlucky enough to be the sole lrmer against a team of 8 with ams then obviously it is going to be harder, yet you can still be effective, more or less so depending on your knowledge of your lrms and their ams etc. Are you saying AMS should be a requirement and even then ineffective against a dedicated lrmboat? that does not sound so balanced...

SO long Story short your ok with a entire weapon system being 2nd class to EVERY other weapon system? Cause that is balance right?????

LRM's have enough drawbacks without nerfing the damage and spread into the ground. PLUS ECM is still on the way.

People are mad because "they take no skill" they take a lot more then most people think, but it does allow people who are not super great pilot/snipers to play the game and have fun.

LRM's right now are barely a annoyance, you can walk into the open with AMS (or even with no AMS) and not care This is wrong. Rewarding people for making poor choices like not using cover or refusing to use equipment advantages is wrong.

[Scratx]

Dren Nas, on 12 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

You're welcome to have your opinion about what you think I do or do not know, but I was in a match where people were launching volley after volley of LRMs at me. I would power up, fire my ER Large Lasers, move, then power down, and finally power back up, and continue moving again. As I powered up and started moving again the missiles would land where I was when I powered down time and time again.

Even though the two mechs were out of my ER Large Laser's effective range(they were around 750m away), I was managing to put more damage on them than the two of them were putting on me.

Do they retarget? I don't think so.

Are they supposed to? If you have read that in the rules and know for a fact they are supposed to, then sure.

I'm a Catapult expert. I like to think I haven't been imagining my missiles veer off towards reacquired targets and slam them for N points of damage. I like to think the UI hasn't been lying to me when in my top right paper doll it starts flashing all over.

In other words, I don't know WTH your opponents were doing, but missiles do relock just fine and I don't recall it ever not working.

[Wispsy]

XvDraxvX, on 12 November 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

SO long Story short your ok with a entire weapon system being 2nd class to EVERY other weapon system? Cause that is balance right?????

LRM's have enough drawbacks without nerfing the damage and spread into the ground. PLUS ECM is still on the way.

People are mad because "they take no skill" they take a lot more then most people think, but it does allow people who are not super great pilot/snipers to play the game and have fun.

LRM's right now are barely a annoyance, you can walk into the open with AMS (or even with no AMS) and not care This is wrong. Rewarding people for making poor choices like not using cover or refusing to use equipment advantages is wrong.

It is not second class. Lrms are useful and I love having a good lrmer on my team. As I have previously stated, if you are ignoring lrms you are doing it wrong. Their damage is not negligible unless piloted by an inexperienced lrmer. If there is more then one you will go down surprisingly quickly. If they employ tools such as tag (OMG something that only lrms benefit from and you do not use....) then the damage is very nicely focused. To balance it without tag would mean when tag is used t would be overpowered.
ECM is not in the game and they may change its application in any number of ways before they implement it, totally irrelevant for a discussion on today.

Now they are not a "take no skill" weapon, my condolences if you are now having problems with them.....

Also really you people should consider the effect on the battlefield outside their damage anyway. They are far from useless.

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 12 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

I did not say this was the required amount, infact I have not needed to use this many myself unless I miss a fair amount (fire at rocks) or he + 1 or more of his team have ams and I am the only one with any lrms...Even then you can burn their ams ammo a lot faster (if more expensive) then you burn your missiles.



hitting with the majority on his core with the rest spreading to side torsos will still core him, which is what happens when you use tag and that is only required for the absolute lowest estimates which are over half again lower then stated dmg numbers.
There is no way it would not phase him, no way in hell. Anyway I was just pointing it out considering your post earlier.

Well ER large lasers have MASSIVE heat to compensate for their range...

Anyway it is possible that they changed the relocking of targets and I have not noticed and they have not said anything. however I have found pre patch and I am quite sure still now. When target is reacquired missiles will turn up to full 180 degrees to get back on target. I made a habit and a number of posts infact on how if you are having trouble hitting light mechs as a solo lrm boat all you need do is lose lock as they are in the air and then reacquire it and they come at it from multiple angles meaning the light mech cannot dodge the majority of the missiles.
Edit: That ofc is only necessary if you do not have your own tag and nobody on your team is tagging, as when tagged the majority of missiles will always hit the light mech unless he makes it solidly behind cover.

I have never seen missiles turn 180degrees and smack someone unless it was an SSRM(only about a 90 degree turn at most)
or when missiles were bugged for a couple of days. o.O

Vernius Ix, on 12 November 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

I just noticed your Location Dren...explains SO MUCH...

/start sarcasm
I'm glad that we, as a society, can use someone's location, race, creed, social status, etc etc as a means to disregard what they say offhandedly and make ourselves feel superior in doing it.
/end sarcasm

Seriously though, comments like that hurt the MWO community as a whole.

Edited by Dren Nas, 12 November 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Dorque]

XvDraxvX, on 12 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Keep in mind though not all 700 missiles will hit the CT either so really its likely more like 2100 missiles to kill a Atlas CT. Or 54 shots versus your steady consistent precise Gauss shots.

LRM's are weak right now and need some love. They went to far with the nerfs.

*sigh* Here I go again. Thank heavens I'll be too busy tonight to keep replying to this.

The point you're absolutely missing here is that they're not valued for killing people; they're valued because they soften targets for the pinpoint shooters.

When I'm running my AC Hunchback, I can take an Atlas face-on most of the time because of the serious punch my ACs deal to their plating... that requires a certain amount of a lack of skill on my opponent's part, however, and that it does remain a 1v1.

When they've already been peppered with LRMs it's far easier, especially if I can get behind them. Prior to engaging, LRM fire will have weakened plating so I can choose a target to blow their engine faster. While engaging, LRMs keep them distracted and obscure their vision, making me that much harder to hit (one REALLY good shot from an Assault is enough to waste me, if they can get it.)

That damage you think is useless is a significant boon to those of your team getting in close and cleaning up, and they are thankful for it. If you can't deal with that and want to make kill shots... pilot something else.

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 12 November 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

I have never seen missiles turn 180degrees and smack someone unless it was an SSRM(only about a 90 degree turn at most)

As a very experienced spotter and lrmer I can tell you with certainty that they can and do, most of the time a lesser angle is required of course, but you can literally change them from next to the ground. For a while I worked on legging people only with missiles, but that is just the kind of thing I do.

Edit: I also legged people only with other peoples missiles, but that is actually easier believe it or not

Edited by Wispsy, 12 November 2012 - 04:20 PM.

[Choombatta]

Tebbo, on 12 November 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

:/

or people can play differently.

should i not use pulse lasers, lbx, srm, small lasers? because i need to be close to use any of those to any real good effect. so i guess i'm doing it wrong because i chose to play differently than you.

because in BT we're always shooting at each other from like 10+ hexes away right? no one EVER uses mechs that hang around 3-5 hexes. right?

:/

Sure, you can play differently. You can also play a different game.
What I am saying here is, Mechwarrior is not a "scoot and shoot" game, like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Tribes, ect. ad naseum.
Mechwarrior is a Mech simulator, not a First Person Shooter.

I have watched this happen to game after game.
Player A comes from Game 1 that he could stroke his epeen in.
Player A comes to Game 2, and finds there is a learning curve.
Instead of learning,Player A gets Game 2 changed to be more like Game 1.
Viola!

If something is off balanced, it needs to be fixed.
If something kills you in a manner you do not like...........learn from it, do not change the mechanic that killed you in the first place.

That is the difference between a Simulator and a FPS!
FPS = no learning curve
Simulator = steep learning curve

[Dren Nas]

Dorque, on 12 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

*sigh* Here I go again. Thank heavens I'll be too busy tonight to keep replying to this.

<3 Dorque

Dorque, on 12 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

When I'm running my AC Hunchback, I can take an Atlas face-on most of the time because of the serious punch my ACs deal to their plating... that requires a certain amount of a lack of skill on my opponent's part, however, and that it does remain a 1v1.

That is all I want LRMs to be able to do. I want to be able to skill a stupid atlas that walks in the open across the water on forest colony in plain view to all who care to shoot at him, but currently they can't.

Hell, if you want to say that your ACs are OP since you can kill a stupid atlass 1v1 on your hunchback, I'll say, "ok. Missiles are fine."

[RG Notch]

XvDraxvX, on 12 November 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

People are mad because "they take no skill" they take a lot more then most people think, but it does allow people who are not super great pilot/snipers to play the game and have fun.

Exactly, people who aren't good shots or pilots should be killing those people who are. Why should the game be dominated by people who are actually good at it. There's lots more people who aren't good and damn they deserve to win too.That's balance!

[Dorque]

Choombatta, on 12 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Sure, you can play differently. You can also play a different game.
What I am saying here is, Mechwarrior is not a "scoot and shoot" game, like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Tribes, ect. ad naseum.
Mechwarrior is a Mech simulator, not a First Person Shooter.

I have watched this happen to game after game.
Player A comes from Game 1 that he could stroke his epeen in.
Player A comes to Game 2, and finds there is a learning curve.
Instead of learning,Player A gets Game 2 changed to be more like Game 1.
Viola!

If something is off balanced, it needs to be fixed.
If something kills you in a manner you do not like...........learn from it, do not change the mechanic that killed you in the first place.

That is the difference between a Simulator and a FPS!
FPS = no learning curve
Simulator = steep learning curve

That's exactly what everyone else is saying too, I'm glad that you recognize it. LRMs require skill now.

Dren Nas, on 12 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Hell, if you want to say that your ACs are OP since you can kill a stupid atlass 1v1 on your hunchback, I'll say, "ok. Missiles are fine."

I'll actually agree with that, but I will point out the hack job I had to do on my Mech to fit them. =P The only reason I can pull it off is that I've stripped all of the armour off the arms and dropped the engine to actually be able to mount three AC-5s without sacrificing torso armour.

[XvDraxvX]

Dorque, on 12 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

*sigh* Here I go again. Thank heavens I'll be too busy tonight to keep replying to this.
The point you're absolutely missing here is that they're not valued for killing people; they're valued because they soften targets for the pinpoint shooters.

*SIGH* here I go again.....

WHO SAYS they are not designed to be kill weapons? Point out 1 pieces of evidence for this point? Show me one place ANYWHERE that its states "LRM's are support weapons"

I will wait please go ahead.....

Sure they may be equipped on "Support" mechs but those mechs also have lasers and ballistic weapons sometimes. Does that make lasers and ballistic weapons "Support" weapons?

Or does having a LRM Stock on a mech make it a support mech? Is then the Atlas a support mech? How about a Timberwolf?

LRM's are simply one type of weapon. It has never been stated by PGI or Canon that they are "Support" weapons. Your argument has no basis in reality. You and the people on your side perceive them to be "Support" weapons, even though NOTHING official has ever been said to that point.

[Ted Wayz]

I'm fine with using my LRM to soften up targets, especially assaults, before our heavies/assaults get there. I even get a few multiple kill matches from time to time.

Too often people want their mech to wtfpwn instead of fulfilling a role.

[Dren Nas]

Dorque, on 12 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

That's exactly what everyone else is saying too, I'm glad that you recognize it. LRMs require skill now.



I'll actually agree with that, but I will point out the hack job I had to do on my Mech to fit them. =P The only reason I can pull it off is that I've stripped all of the armour off the arms and dropped the engine to actually be able to mount three AC-5s without sacrificing torso armour.

Alright, since it's op, you'll start a serious thread stating they are OP and call for their nurf?

[Kaijin]

Wispsy, on 12 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

As a very experienced spotter and lrmer I can tell you with certainty that they can and do, most of the time a lesser angle is required of course, but you can literally change them from next to the ground. For a while I worked on legging people only with missiles, but that is just the kind of thing I do.

Edit: I also legged people only with other peoples missiles, but that is actually easier believe it or not

In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that I too have seen LRMs perform the most amazing acrobatic stunts when they have been fired with a lock, lost the lock mid-flight, and then the lock was reacquired at the last moment. Killed a Jenner this way pre-nerf (though Imagine post-nerf would have nearly the same result). Jenner was spotted in the vicinity of the southern bridge in River City. My Cat was in the bay. I locked and fired a salvo of 30 missiles, but mid-flight, my spotter lost the target and so I did too. However, shortly before my missiles were about to crash harmlessly into the ground, I myself reacquired the target with LOS, which had moved laterally from it's previous position. The missiles took an immediate 90 degree turn at near street level and went right up that Jenner's backside, killing it. The (dead) Jenner pilot exclaimed, "What the **** you hit me with?!" "Two LRM15s", I replied.

[Choombatta]

Dorque, on 12 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

That's exactly what everyone else is saying too, I'm glad that you recognize it. LRMs require skill now.

Do not put words in my mouth. I have never once said LRMs are or were overpowered.
I have always said, there was always a way to counter them, without any outside support except my own Mech and it's equipment.
I have been massacred by LRMs, but everytime, it was because I trudged out, placing myself in harm's way.
I have easily avoided many an LRM volley, simply by moving behind cover. This was all before there was a nice little warning message letting me know they are incoming.
I have played many Mechs with LRMs ( boats and 1 single launcher ), and many Mechs without a single ammo based weapon.

I find all have a use and a purpose, and hate seeing one after another "altered" till it is second rate, simply because players are unwilling to adapt and learn.

Unbalanced...............missiles coming directly from above at a 90degree angle every single time.....yes, that is unbalanced.
Not nearly as unbalancing as Dragon ramming was though ( love beating that horse.............).

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Relkathi, on 10 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

You have obviously never been in the military. As currently one of the most powerful weapons in the military is the M109A6 Paladin, which allows Soldiers to rain metal death from 36,000meters away. If weapons in 3049 can't match that, then why other using them at all.

ATM, LRMs are useless, they aren't a threat to any mech, let alone an Atlas.

LRMs should be 1 point of damage per every missile that hits. If you are dumb enough not to seek cover, then you deserve to die.

There is a difference between Infantry destroyed and Artillery destroyed. In the infantry, a target is destroyed if it is dead or incapacitated. In the Artillery, we consider a target destroyed if it is at a 70% loss of fighting ability. Our Paladins are meant to soften up targets or as area denial, not complete destruction of the target as we cannot even see what we target.

LRMs are an indirect fire capable weapon, dealing area damage and area suppression. Not for ROFLstomping people in cover. If I get brave(read: dumb) enough to cross open terrain in anything going slower than 90kph, I 9 times of 10 get curbstomped by the ensuing LRM storm.

[Greyfyl]

JohanssenJr, on 12 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

LRMs are an indirect fire capable weapon, dealing area damage and area suppression. Not for ROFLstomping people in cover. If I get brave(read: dumb) enough to cross open terrain in anything going slower than 90kph, I 9 times of 10 get curbstomped by the ensuing LRM storm.

I played for 2 hours tonight and saw one team using LRM effectively....vs a PUG. Not really difficult.

With that said most people are just plowing straight ahead at this point - LRMs were not a factor at all in 95% of the games I played tonight. Non-factor - zero - zilch - nada. Premade teams of 3 or 4 atlases just roll forward and blast anything in their way. That was probably about 50-60% of the games I saw tonight. Another 20-30% were light mech fests.

Edited by Greyfyl, 12 November 2012 - 06:06 PM.