234 replies to this topic

[Squid von Torgar]

Since the last patch, and contrary to the patch notes and any word from PGI, we have fully working DHS in our engines (If upgraded).

The patch notes are clear and the revelation that DHS in the engine are working at their full 2.0 value was exposed by the community. In the current implementation any DHS that are contained in the Engine (Not including the optional extra DHS that you can fit in engine slots) are providing a cooling rate of 2.0 / 0.2. Any additional DHS work at 1.4 / 0.14. This goes against the announced function of DHS, which had them all working at 1.4

PGI stated that having play tested 2.0 DHS they were totally OP. Garth himself revealed that his Jenner fitted with DHS was able to core an Atlas in 3 seconds.

Its nearly a week since we got the patch and I have yet to read a single post on the MWO forums of DHS being perceived as OP. If DHS were really OP where is the hordes of post flaming about their OPness?
There are none.

As DHS work in MWO currently they provide the biggest boost to mechs that just rely on engine DHS. That is lights and mediums. Having said that its obvious that all mechs benefit from DHS. However to reiterate (as this is an important point) its the light that gets the most love.

I have yet to see any Jenners coring Atlai in under 5 seconds. The prediction of Laser-boats dominating the game hasn't come true. If anything we are seeing more diverse builds that add variety in game and provide the players with more choices in the mech lab.

Given the above, perhaps its time for PGI to release fully working DHS (All DHS providing the full 2.0 / 0.2 value).

The reasons for not doing so as cited by PGI so far have been seen to be unfounded. The community so far has only applauded the Ninja Buff that DHS have received. As a community perhaps its time for us to test 2.0 DHS and put to rest the issue that they will be OP. From my understanding to change the DHS is a quick job, in the event that 2.0 DHS are found to be OP it can be wound back to its current value.

If 2.0 DHS are implemented then larger mechs (Primarily Assaults) will be put on par with lights/Meds. Several core builds will now be valid and also energy weapons will be able to compete with the almighty Gauss.

So why not let us test them and use them?

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 12 November 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[Calmon]

They just need to balance the 2.0 in engine, 1.4 in rest because it pushes the smaller even more and makes DHS outside of engine bad. The result is: very equal builds of being fine with exact the engine DHS.

So I would prefer by far a system which let me decide more!

In moment SHS, just plain bad
DHS outside engine: not very good

= easy to decide, use your engine DHS and build weapons around.

Nothing real appealing. So I would go with 1.6-1.7 DHS in general or keep the 2.0 at all and let each engine DHS cost 1 slot/DHS extra.

Edited by Calmon, 12 November 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Daimonos]

+1 to DHS 2.0 - or at least, 1.7 < DHS in and out of engine <= 2.0.

[Vassago Rain]

Calmon, on 12 November 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

They just need to balance the 2.0 in engine, 1.4 in rest because it pushes the smaller even more and makes DHS outside of engine bad. The result is: very equal builds of being fine with exact the engine DHS.

So I would prefer by far a system which let me decide more!

In moment SHS, just plain bad
DHS outside engine: not very good

Singles are supposed to be bad, and even though they're not optimal, they're the primary for big mechs, like atlas.

[INAPPROPRIATE NAME 0001]

Squid von Torgar, on 12 November 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Garth himself revealed that his Jenner fitted with DHS was able to core an Atlas in 3 seconds.

I loved this factoid. I mean the small laser takes 2.25 seconds to recycle and anything heavier longer, typically 3 seconds.

It alone speaks volumes.

[Calmon]

Vassago Rain, on 12 November 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Singles are supposed to be bad, and even though they're not optimal, they're the primary for big mechs, like atlas.

I play only assault and strangely I never consider to use them... guess why.

And no. PGI implementing stuff which nobody use is BAAAADDDDD.

Edited by Calmon, 12 November 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Cole Allard]

1.) OP your like 2 weeks late, sorry.

2.) I want/need a link to the page that Garth said he downed an Atlas in 3 secs with a Jenner. Since oyu quote him, you should have it.

3.) Have you thought about the pilotskills giving you percentages on the cooldown and heat tolerance? And that those are even doubled if unlocked on 3 chasis?

Those pilot skills are usually killers to all discussions having the TT ruleset as a basic for your countings.

[FiveDigits]

The two points you made:

• 0.2 / 2.0 DHS are not OP.
  
• Only engine-internal DHS are true DHS, externals are 0.14 / 1.4 which favors Lights and Mediums.

can not be stressed enough and need to be repeated ad nauseum until PGI acknowledges that they misjudged the situation and give us proper 0.2 / 2.0 DHS across the board.
I fully agree on that.

I'd also like to repeat a suggestion that would give SHS a purpose beyond being cheap:

• SHS cool 0.1 HPS and increase total heat capacity by 1.0
  
• DHS cool 0.2 HPS and increase total heat capacity by 1.0

This would allow builds with (many) SHS increased alpha strike capability while DHS would provide better sustained damage.

[Xelrah]

Maybe atlas stripped off his back armor and he got crit in the ammo?

[Amechwarrior]

I love how the one thing they wanted to prevent "Light 'mechs becoming over powered" is the one thing they let happen with the "fix" to the originally broken engine heatsinks. Just set it to 2.0 for everyone and everything and let the heavier designs get the same kind of edge from DHS that lighter machines do now.

If we can handle these "overpowered lights" now with their true engine DHS, no tackles and lag shields then it's not as game breaking as they thought. What does hurt things is that bigger machines can't get the same advantage due to them needing much more heatsinks then the engine can store and dropping their efficiency relative to lighter designs that pull their loads almost entirely from engine DHS.

[INAPPROPRIATE NAME 0001]

Cole Allard, on 12 November 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

2.) I want/need a link to the page that Garth said he downed an Atlas in 3 secs with a Jenner. Since oyu quote him, you should have it.

http://mwomercs.com/...49#entry1362549

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

[Eshek]

Garth needs to keep in mind that we players are restricted to legal builds, and cannot use large-damage smalls or gauss-round MGs. I can see how he might be confused.

[the huanglong]

Good god, if my stock 9M gets any hotter than it is now, I might as well just hit P at the start of the match. When was the last time FOTM migrated to an energy weapon?

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

1.) OP your like 2 weeks late, sorry.

The point is that its been 1 week now and having had the chance to all play with 2.0 engine DHS there is no sign of unbalance. 2 weeks ago we didnt have them, so its hard to have posted this ealier right?

Quote

2.) I want/need a link to the page that Garth said he downed an Atlas in 3 secs with a Jenner. Since oyu quote him, you should have it.

Thanks Inappropriate, as we see more hyperbole from Garth, but where is are the facts in his statement? Perhaps Garth is just a really good Jenner pilot?

Quote

3.) Have you thought about the pilotskills giving you percentages on the cooldown and heat tolerance? And that those are even doubled if unlocked on 3 chasis?

Yes I have as I have those unlocked, they do of course add a bonus, especially when doubled once Elite is reached. I still attest that DHS aren't and wont be OP with them. However it is easier to tweak the XP bonuses (As they are a blanket change and effect all players equally) rather than tune DHS to individual builds and variants. Furthermore the XP bonuses provide a benefit that isnt open to newer players. By allowing all to fit working DHS we all get the benefit, not just those that have ground out their XP levels.

Going back the the original point though I managed to catch Bryan's attention prior to this patch in a Q & A thread. I asked him about the new implementation of DHS, and whilst he didn't have the answer, he did promise to have David write up a full explanation as to how they work.

That as yet remains to be seen (I appreciate that PGI are busy and the forums must come second to actually developing the game)

That said, DHS is still a huge issue and an important aspect of MWO game play. Some official word or statement would be appreciated. Specifically I would love to see the following questions answered

1) Is the current implementation of DHS by design or a bug?

2) Given now that considerable telemetry must be available to PGI regarding their use, and also the feedback from the community as a whole, is it accepted that DHS are not OP and can we now test fully working 2.0 DHS.

3) If 2.0 DHS are not to be implemented what evidence or reason can PGI give for not doing so? What is the thinking behind awarding ligher mechs a DHS bonus yet reducing the bonus available to heavier mechs?

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 12 November 2012 - 01:58 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Calmon, on 12 November 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

I play only assault and strangely I never consider to use them... guess why.

And no. PGI implementing stuff which nobody use is BAAAADDDDD.

You mean you're filling your IS assault with...9 dubs, and no guns? Or what?

[Calmon]

Vassago Rain, on 12 November 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

You mean you're filling your IS assault with...9 dubs, and no guns? Or what?

I've 13 (3 in engine) and yes its enough for not going hot with tweek builds. Sure I could add DHS outside engine but its just less effective.

[Kmieciu]

FiveDigits, on 12 November 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

I'd also like to repeat a suggestion that would give SHS a purpose beyond being cheap:

• SHS cool 0.1 HPS and increase total heat capacity by 1.0
  
• DHS cool 0.2 HPS and increase total heat capacity by 1.0

This would allow builds with (many) SHS increased alpha strike capability while DHS would provide better sustained damage.

This is a brillant idea! An Atlas packed with SHS would have better alpha-strike capability than the one with fewer DHS.

Calmon, on 12 November 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

I've 13 (3 in engine) and yes its enough for not going hot with tweek builds. Sure I could add DHS outside engine but its just less effective.

Hate to break it to you, but the 3 heat sinks you put in the engine are in fact, the less effective ones. Only the irremovable EHS are at 2.0

[Squid von Torgar]

For quite a few Assualts (Mainly Atlas Builds) DHS arent a good option (They wouldnt be even at the full 2.0 value).

The downside to taking DHS is the crit space they take up. They can help you save weight (By reducing overall HS weight) but for Assaults taking large numbers of weapons they arent a good idea. More often you are better off fitting Endo.

However some Cannon builds rely on them to work. The 9M is a prime example, however as we get more mechs that number will increase. Without fully working DHS those builds will be broken right out of the box.

But forgeting them for the moment, with players having access to the mechlab and all the wierd and wonderful designs they can come up with, we havent seen any unbalance whatsover so far. As I mentioned earlier if anything we are seeing more diverse builds.

MWO and specifically the mech lab should present the player with a series of choices and decisions to be made. 2.0 DHS would give a badly needed helping had to large energy weapons and help close the gap between Gauss based builds (Which given the Cataphract is just around the corner will be increasing soon).

So now is the time to get them out to us to test. If they do indeed break balance and not contribute to then it fair enough to nerf them. But at least test it before making sweeping ascertains that just dont hold up in game.

[Calmon]

Kmieciu, on 12 November 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Hate to break it to you, but the 3 heat sinks you put in the engine are in fact, the less effective ones. Only the irremovable EHS are at 2.0

I know its only working at 1.4 BUT it takes no slot. So just 1 ton for 1.4 without using any slots? I think this is a no brainer or not? When I say only the engine DHS is effective than I meant for sure this includes the additional engine DHS slots.

Edited by Calmon, 12 November 2012 - 02:19 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

I'd rather hear nothing then read bs.