155 replies to this topic

[Egomane]

Metal God, on 30 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'm not even sure how to respond to that, as this discussion seems to come down to socialism vs. libertarianism, at its core, instead of just Liao vs Davion.

I hope not, because it would take the fun out of this thread. That's why I try to stay in character when I comment on Davion versus Liao or similar topics.

Metal God, on 30 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

All I can say is that, I don't want the government interfering in my life, and each person should be able to live their life as they choose without supervision from the state. Remember, the core principle of socialism is forcibly taking someone's hard-earned property and redistributing it to others (i.e., legal plunder).

That's not what is happening within the ConCap. The property of a citizen is his, and will stay his. He only has to dedicate himself to life for the nation and not for himself alone. That doesn't mean has to give until there is nothing left. It only means he has to spend a little of his time to make the lifes of others better. How he achieves that, isn't important.

Metal God, on 30 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Really, to me, the only legitimate role of government is to protect the people's liberty. The military does this by insuring that the state isn't conquered by external forces, and the police and courts do this by enforcing the laws (written in a Constitution) that protect the people. The state doesn't have any business in anything else, such as welfare, education, or health care, because the only revenue the state gains is from taxes. I make a distinction between legitimate taxes that pay for essential services such as the military, police, and courts, and legal plunder that benefits only certain individuals and/or groups.

Is a teacher, that teaches any child, no matter were it comes from, if poor or rich, well dressed or in shambles, plunder? If yes, how so? Is the man, driving around collecting the trash on the streets so they stay clean, plunder? Do only a few selected benefit from it, or is it to the benefit of all? Where is the benefit in sending out troops into the far corners of the world to play police when there is only a percieved thread to the security of the nation, without real substance.
A nation has to care for its people. If it does not it becomes totalitarian. If the people are only there to elect a new leader but have no real influence in what he does, is that realy a democracy, is that realy freedom? Is a nation that never thought of building up a military but instead invests the taxes back into building roads, schools, sport stadium and a stable economy realy socialism?

Metal God, on 30 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

In a capitalist system, hard work decides who suceeds and who doesn't, not the government. And those who fail can always fall back on friends, family, and charity to get them back on their feet. But you're going to have much less unemployed people in a laizze-faire economy, because people actually have an incentive to work when they don't have the option of sitting at home and living off government checks.

But it is the free economy that strives to reduce costs for production. And the biggest part of those costs are loans paid to the workers. If a company has to cut back on its expanses it will in nine out of ten times first start to reduce the workers, before looking at other possible ways to reduce costs. It's the easy way out for them, but the hard way for the now unemployed. It's not always their fault, that they lost their jobs. You have to take care of them, one way or another, and most companys don't pay the small man enough to let them prepare themselfs for it. Free economy/capitalizm will make some rich and a lot poor if it is not regulated in some way by a nations law. And if such a law would prohibit a company to fire people before checking for alternative solutions is that a bad thing?

Metal God, on 30 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

I'm a proud American, and have a huge amount of respect for our Founding Fathers, but I'm appalled with the state our government is in. Similarly, I can't defend every aspect of the Federated Suns, as I feel that they're too warlike at times, and I'd prefer if the officials were elected. But in the end, the FedSuns is the closest state in the Inner Sphere (or Periphery, for that matter) to my ideal form of minimal goverment. And the Capellan Confederation, on the other hand, is the opposite of everything I believe in.

I respect the idea your founding fathers had when they created the united states (a canadian, mexican or brasilian man or women is also an american, so forgive me, for not calling it america). They had high ideals and a vision worthy to follow. But time, two world wars in a relative short time frame and since then high influence over politicans by the economy, twisted it into something they probably never wanted to see. The US became what your founding fathers fought. It was a slow process but it still happend.
The same goes for Marx. He had great ideas how socialism should work, but every time a nation claimed to be socialistic, it perverted his vision into something oppressive and unhealthy. Those nations tend to selfdestruct over time. Does that mean socialism is bad? If it is implemented to further the goals of few instead of everyone, yes it is. If it is implemetend the way it was invisioned, it is not. Can it realy work? We will probably never know.
Democracy, as we understand and life it today, is not realy a democracy. We, the people have no might. We are but animals good enough to elect those who promise to make everything better. Politicans today are professionals. Trained to talk high and mighty without realy telling you everything. They claim to know better then the ones who elected them. When, a few hundred years ago, revolutions broke out all over europe to end monarchie and establish democracy, they never envisioned the perversion it became today. We are essentialy back to what we fought then, it only goes by another name.

History has tought us so far, that any form of ruling can and will be perverted. That those of the inner sphere stayed stable for centuries is pure fiction. Even long reigning nations like the roman empire changed itself various times over the course of its lifetime and in the end it simply dissolved.

I accept your point of view, but it is a close minded one (from my point of view, but I can be wrong). I agree that a nation should not involve itself in anything. That it needs to let some room open for the people it governs to grow and develop into themself. But at the same time it needs to make sure, that everyone, poor and rich, has the same chance to develop himself.

The ConCap is the only one that achived that within the inner sphere. The other nations, still have the problems we have today. It's no utopia but it is a nice place to live in.

Wow... that took me some time to write up. Can we please get a little more roleplay into this and forget about the real world stuff?

[Baldwin Chang]

Egomane, on 30 April 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

The same goes for Marx. He had great ideas how socialism should work, but every time a nation claimed to be socialistic, it perverted his vision into something oppressive and unhealthy. Those nations tend to selfdestruct over time. Does that mean socialism is bad? If it is implemented to further the goals of few instead of everyone, yes it is. If it is implemetend the way it was invisioned, it is not. Can it realy work? We will probably never know.

Marx was an evil man who advocated the mass purging of entire groups of people (the handicapped, the retarded, the sick.)

[Fetladral]

Metal God, on 30 April 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

I like the FRR as well, but I don't fancy learning Swedenese.

Swedish but I'll let it slide if you give me 200 barrels of mead.

Claw55, on 30 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

We'll grant you your second and third points. We'll also point out that you lost to Ghost Bear in the end. But hey, depending on how you look at it, that may not be a bad thing.

You forgot to add you also have a greater amount of alcoholic beverages per capita than any other nation in the known universe.

Did I need to mention we have more alcohol than anyone else and are always in drunken brawls? I was pretty sure that was common knowledge.

[Egomane]

Jeremiah, I never said that everything he did was good. I wanted to point out, that socialism in itself doesn't have to be bad thing. I do not judge what kind of person Marx was. I never had the chance to talk to him in person (will do, when time machines are finally invented).

We don't know the context in which he came to the conclusions he published. What you mention, is in part what I said. A perversion of the system. People like Steven Hawking, cleary show that he was wrong. The physical or mental impaired can still achieve a lot for humanity. But that is how we see it today. It doesn't mean we wouldn't have shared his vision would we live in his time and place. Today I respect the general idea, not the whole concept, just as I respect the general idea of democracy but not the concept in which it is implemented today.

My vision for our world, wouldn't need weapons or money. It wouldn't need politicans or monarchs. But it can only fail, because humans tend to be selfish and agressive. We can not work towards a common goal without redefining the goal a hundred times and splitting up because of that. Maybe that will change in the future, but I don't believe any one of us will live to see the day.

Fetladral, on 30 April 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Did I need to mention we have more alcohol than anyone else and are always in drunken brawls? I was pretty sure that was common knowledge.

Sounds like the place for my next vacation!

Edited by Egomane, 30 April 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Dark Puppy]

So I saw a stat being thrown around by the CC supporters, where are you getting "billions" killed during the FS invasion?

[Adridos]

My view of the Federated Suns.

They are aggressive, totalitarian goverment next to our glorious nation, preying upon our prefference of peace and prosperity. Our leaders are not the best, but our nation is far better than yours! All our people can have rights and citizenship. If they do their job well, they can rise up in ranks, noone is going to look at the fact they were poor and their parents did not even have citizenship. Every individual gets everything he needs and he only has to be productive for the state to be an honored citizen. What about you? Your poor will stay poor forever. They will never learn to write, nor read and nobody from their family will ever get something better. That does not seem like the utopia your propaganda is describing. They call us backstabbers, but they leech upon their allies, just to attack them later. We never attacked a nation for anything less than taking back what belongs to us, but Daviots always end up destroying some nation, be it their Steiner allies, our Confederation, or some defenseless periphery state. They demonize both our and Kuritan millitary, but they do the same, or even more bloodshed. The worst of all are their victims of propaganda, who started to believe in it and have some say in the Inner Sphere. Stackpole is a great example of this. He glorifies spies and openly talks about our millitary, the most elite millitary in the Inner Sphere, like it is a bunch of people holding the gun for the first time in their live. Problem is that he writes stories for ComStar and so everyone in the Inner Sphere, besides those who were there and saw it, belive him.

Also, they have no shame in taking designs of our machs and proclaiming them as their own, Cataphract and Raven being very good examples of that. If they cannot make a proper mech, at least if they did not discredit their makers. But no, they are Daviots and they make the best mechs, never caring to mention they were designed by someone else.

[Egomane]

It doesn't matter if it's millions or billions, when the only wounded that let to this war and all this suffering, at least that's what your side offers as a reason, is only one mans ego (no, not me ).

And Billions is probably not even a far fetched number. The war encompased several hundred worlds, with popolation ranging from a few thousend to billions each, and all great nations. The fighting will have cut support lines to planets in need of supply. It will have destroyed the fields necessary to feed the population of entire cities. Supplys meant for public care being rerouted for the use of the military will have caused casualties. Even if it is never mentioned within the history books, this fighting can not have happened without massive civilian casualties. Direct or indirect cause doesn't matter. A war is not just the glorified warrior versus warrior battle. The field you battle upon is the food for someone else. The building you hide yourself in, was the home to some poor soul. The ressources you proclaim or hold up could be electronics for a heart implant of some poor guy on another planet. The missle volley your opponent evaded could have destroyed the factory that was the economical center of small village. The coolant you lost on the battlefield, could have poisened a well or two. There are so many ways in which this war caused casualties, I can't even list them all here.

[Metal God]

This will probably be my last post in this thread, because, as Egomane stated, it's slipping more into a real-world argument than a BT discussion. However, I want to make a couple of final statements.

Socialism may look good on paper, but monopoly is never a good thing. When the government controls things such as the education and healthcare systems, things become ridiculously ineffecient due to the lack of competition. A relaxed, free economy with privitized education, healthcare, insurance, etc., is much more reasonable.

And, more importantly, I object to socialism morally because the government shouldn't have the right the forcibly take my money and use to to pay for someone else's child to go to school. Call me selfish, but I think that everyone should ultimately only be responsible for themselves and their families. However, I'm a strong proponent of charity, and assert that it's usually much more efficient than government welfare. Governments are notoriously bad money-managers.

I'd also like to say that I'm very unhappy with the current state of the US government, and I agree that it has become the very thing that the Founders fought to create, or close to it. There are only a few reasonable politicians (i.e., Ron Paul) left who are struggling against the status quo.

But anyway, we're all friends here, and the important thing is that we're all BattleTech geeks.

[Robert9670]

House Davion vs House Liao, I want to see how this will play out once the game is released.

[Ross486]

Metal God, on 30 April 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

This will probably be my last post in this thread, because, as Egomane stated, it's slipping more into a real-world argument than a BT discussion. However, I want to make a couple of final statements.

Socialism may look good on paper, but monopoly is never a good thing. When the government controls things such as the education and healthcare systems, things become ridiculously ineffecient due to the lack of competition. A relaxed, free economy with privitized education, healthcare, insurance, etc., is much more reasonable.

And, more importantly, I object to socialism morally because the government shouldn't have the right the forcibly take my money and use to to pay for someone else's child to go to school. Call me selfish, but I think that everyone should ultimately only be responsible for themselves and their families. However, I'm a strong proponent of charity, and assert that it's usually much more efficient than government welfare. Governments are notoriously bad money-managers.

I'd also like to say that I'm very unhappy with the current state of the US government, and I agree that it has become the very thing that the Founders fought to create, or close to it. There are only a few reasonable politicians (i.e., Ron Paul) left who are struggling against the status quo.

But anyway, we're all friends here, and the important thing is that we're all BattleTech geeks.

I agree we are all friends i started this thread to show why each house is great. I don't want people to bash the other Houses this is just to show how deep each person's loyalty lies to each of these great houses.

[Thorn Hallis]

Fetladral, on 30 April 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Swedish but I'll let it slide if you give me 200 barrels of mead.

We don't have mead in the Confederation, as we don't style ourselves as wannabe-Vikings.

[Youngblood]

...Have some vodka?

I would really love to put in some quality time into this thread to show that the Capellan Confederation is dictatorship but NOT a socialst state, but I haven't found that time yet. Sorry!

[Sigmund Sandoval]

The current incarnation of the Federated Suns government is a far cry from the idealistic and somewhat democratized republic that Lucien envisioned. Through time and quite a bit of conflict, House Davion discovered that at a certain level, an interplanetary government requires a firm and unquestioned hand to lead it. During times of relative peace, more egalitarian attitudes and ideals may be practiced, but in a galaxy that has known only war for so many hundreds of years, it only leads to divisiveness, indecisiveness and internal turmoil. Thus the Federated Suns government has become more centralized around the First Prince as it has evolved during the Succession Wars.

The Federated Suns at a galactic level is a Neo-Feudal constitutional monarchy ruled by the First Prince, his Dukes and the Ministries that govern the bureaucracy. All of these positions are hereditary or appointments, none are elected. Although there are systems in place that allow the common citizenry to request the removal of an unsatisfactory lord (which has occurred on several occasions), these decisions are still made by the feudal masters that lie higher up the chain. Although the Federated Suns has known its tyrants, for the most part the monarchy understands that they have a responsibility to the populace in order to avoid greater challenges to their domestic peace. In other words it's in their best interest to keep the general populace safe and happy.

What we fail to see in this discussion is that just about every type of governmental "philosophy" is represented in the Federated Suns. One of the few things that hasn't changed from the original Crucis Pact is the general autonomy given to the governance of the individual planets within the Federation. You can find planets ranging politically from Soviet Communism, to French Socialism to the far more popular British parliamentary system. All are represented on a planetary level. So the discussion of these political systems is moot in the fact that both the Capellan Confederation and the Federated Suns are run by monarchies, which by their very nature despotic at least at a galactic level.

Although the popular belief is that the Capellan Confederation is a police state, that is a half truth. Most citizens of the confederation enjoy most of the same basic freedoms as a citizen from the Federated Suns as they live their day to day lives. The main difference is one of philosophy and public education.

The Liao state promotes two main doctrines that define their socio-political structure. First is the Korvin Doctrine, which stresses the subordination of the individual to the a Greater Humanity, or in essence to the state. This concept is anathema to the ideals of individualism, personal freedom, expression and development that are extolled in the Federated Suns. The second is the Sarna Mandate which dictates that the military, scientific and political elite of a given society are the only ones capable of governing, which is used to justify the Capellan social caste system. The concept of being able to climb social strata through education and service is central to the beliefs of the average Federated Suns citizen, beliefs that cannot function within the Liao state (as a side note there have been several situations where commoners have risen to the status of a nobleman or woman. This is of course uncommon, but has happened). Philosophical Examiners, Courts of Philosophical Inquiry and The Ranks of the Dedicated make sure that these ideas are ingrained into every citizen in the Confederation. Those who fail to “tow the party line” are dealt with, at least amongst the citizenry that the state deems to be a threat. These systems are oppressive by our standards but make for a citizenry and a warrior caste that is capable of incredible levels of courage and sacrifice. Never underestimate a Liao, doing so is slitting your own throat.

Our history has been one of bitter rivalry since before there was a Capellan Confederation which was founded by a genius who just so happened to be both a convicted terrorist and a madman. The Capellan Hegemony, Chesterton Trade League, Tikanov Grand Union and St. Ives Mercentile Association were the seeds of a Confederation that proved to be a thorn in the side of my nascent Federation. If we are warmongers, its because we have the most aggressive, politically duplicitous and ruthless neighbors in the inner sphere and I mean that with ALL due respect. After all a nation can certainly be defined by the quality of its enemies.

Edited by Sigmund Sandoval, 02 May 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Adridos]

Sigmund Sandoval, on 02 May 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Although the popular belief is that the Capellan Confederation is a police state, that is a half truth. Most citizens of the confederation enjoy most of the same basic freedoms as a citizen from the Federated Suns as they live their day to day lives. The main difference is one of philosophy and public education.


The Liao state promotes two main doctrines that define their socio-political structure. First is the Korvin Doctrine, which stresses the subordination of the individual to the a Greater Humanity, or in essence to the state. This concept is anathema to the ideals of individualism, personal freedom, expression and development that are extolled in the Federated Suns. The second is the Sarna Mandate which dictates that the military, scientific and political elite of a given society are the only ones capable of governing, which is used to justify the Capellan social caste system. The concept of being able to climb social strata through education and service is central to the beliefs of the average Federated Suns citizen, beliefs that cannot function within the Liao state (as a side note there have been several situations where commoners have risen to the status of a nobleman or woman. This is of course uncommon, but has happened). Philosophical Examiners, Courts of Philosophical Inquiry and The Ranks of the Dedicated make sure that these ideas are ingrained into every citizen in the Confederation. Those who fail to “tow the party line” are dealt with, at least amongst the citizenry that the state deems to be a threat. These systems are oppressive by our standards but make for a citizenry and a warrior caste that is capable of incredible levels of courage and sacrifice. Never underestimate a Liao, doing so is slitting your own throat.

You're wrong. Too bad, since your post seemed as a good compromise.

[Jack Gallows]

People of the Confederation I've got no problem with.

Their leadership needs to take a long walk off a short plank.

[Egomane]

Jack Gallows, on 03 May 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

People of the Confederation I've got no problem with.

Their leadership needs to take a long walk off a short plank.

That's weird! That is exactly what I thought about about the FedSuns.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Robert9670, on 30 April 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

House Davion vs House Liao, I want to see how this will play out once the game is released.

With me luring Davies into a properly laid mine field....

[Sigmund Sandoval]

Adridos, on 03 May 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

You're wrong. Too bad, since your post seemed as a good compromise.

No, sir I am not wrong. I believe my sources are quite trustworthy. The Korvin Doctrine and the Sarna Mandate at the core of Liao sociopolitical philosophy and the means by which the Capellan government indoctrinates its citizens. You are free to check my information with Comstar. Pages to 64-66 of Adept Adal Corvin's report to Liao Documentation Development Program in the Comstar Archive will support my assertions. I would be willing to take a poll of a sample of Federated Suns citizens to see if the Doctrine and Mandate seemed oppressive to them after they read it. I think we both know how that would turn out.

My intent was not to provide a compromise, but provide a reason why we two are philosophically at odds and why we are destined to be enemies.

[Lima Zulu]

Well, Egomane made a great list, so, I can make something of a kind:

Federated Suns - to good to be true. Really. Every coin has other side, and if FS is so wonderfull, peacefull and democratic - what a grim darkness should be covered by this image?
Lyran Commonwealth - Trade state, Venice, Genoa, Hanseatic League? Bury your enemies under piles of gold instead of steel? Davion allies? Do not want.
Draconis Combine - wapanese? Thanks, but no. Just no.
Free World League - separatism, nationalism, endless struggle, intrigues and plots, Thomas Marik. Looks cool, but only from outside. And Blakist. No matter it hasn't happend yet, but it will happen. And it's just wrong.
Capelan Confederation - underdog, guerilla fighters, fanatic loyalty, chinese сunning + russian bizantiness... Good. At least, we know all bad side, but if there is a bad one, there should be a good one too, under the layer of Davion democratic propaganda.

[Volturnus]

Lima Zulu, on 04 May 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Draconis Combine - wapanese? Thanks, but no. Just no.

Shot Mountain Dew out of my nose when I read this part.