336 replies to this topic

[Pugnacious Stoat]

Dimento Graven, on 21 November 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Let's see... I could very easy see the that other very damaged 'mechs that had ammo to fire, or short range weapons available to fire, were suffering from the 'lag' shielding. They were firing where they "saw" the 'mech, unfortunately, he was actually several meters in front of that, and it was easy to see that from how the majority of the shots were behind him.

If the netcode was fixed he'd have been dead a long time ago.

Again, all you've done is demonstrate that the game is broken, a 25 ton 'mech is not designed, does not have the armor, nor the weaponry to fight one on one, a heavier 'mech. FYI: This movie was made even before they took out tripping. Heck, had that other team coordinated their efforts and tripped him, he'd have been dead.

The lack of tripping has broken this game even further beyond the 'realm' of reasonablness.

Absolutely, EVERY 'mech has a 'role' in combat, but a light 'mech's role is NOT battle line.

To think so is stupid on the order of something so great, I have nothing but inappropriate comparisons to state it...

What do you mean by "battle line?" Standing toe to toe with enemy mechs and trading shots? Obviously, that's not a light mech's role. But that's not the only way to take on an atlas. Writhen (the jenner pilot in the video) killed what was left of the enemy team on his own by using hit and run tactics and outmaneuvering them. Blame it all on the lag shield if you want, but assault mech pilots will always have a hard time landing shots on light mech pilots of superior skill--particularly once the light mech has outmaneuvered them and is taking shots at their rear. You don't need bad netcode to make yourself a difficult target, and you certainly don't need it if you're good enough to get out of the enemy's firing arc entirely.

[Randodan]

I thought SSRM are guided missiles? They should hit unless countermeasures are employed. ECM maybe?

Unlike LRMS, SSRMs are fire-and-forget and should hit perfectly well -- like a AIM9 would hit an airplane. LRMs require guidance like an old-style TOW missile.

If LRM guidance is broken, it won't hit.

[Rushin Roulette]

Terick, on 20 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

That can be removed if the new monduls are working the way they say they should. The 360 degree targeting and then use the free view with your cockpit to keep the targeting ont eh scout, Tthe there is also backign up against a wall/building/cliff, and makign it impossible tog et behind you. SRMs don't so much damage is a problem. Lower damage, make sure they dont' all home to CT (they should spread every where ont eh mech, would love if they would hit legs to increase my salvage pay), and maybe a slight bump up in the cool down timer to amke refire take longer.

Actually this isnt true. The new modules say that you can keep the opponent TARGETED if it is within 200m behind you. Targeted does not equal locked. You will still loose weapons lock if the mech you are fighting is out of your reticule aiming range, You can not move the aiming reticule out of your HUD range, even if you use free look.

That light running circles around a streakapult is still going to be un hitable because the Streaker will not have a target for the lock on for long enough to shoot.

[kaeh]

I played again with my streakcat this morning, that i had stood for a time, just to try how they work after the patch. I used the same build that i was using before the patch, 5xSSRM2 and a LRM15. Before patch I could be killed easily by light mechs and I didnt gent many kills on the matches, lets say 1, or maybe 2 with luck.

First match: 5 kills, light mechs blowned up in 3-4 rounds.
Second match: 3 kills.

I didnt have time to play more, but i think its pretty clear they've been boosted up again as they were prior to last patch. Again, and being a user of them, I think their performance must be changed again.

Make them hit all locations, and make them fire only if you are aiming manually at the mech. I think that lock on and only hitting torsos are what makes them too much powerful.

See ya in-game!

[Elder Thorn]

Rushin Roulette, on 21 November 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Actually this isnt true. The new modules say that you can keep the opponent TARGETED if it is within 200m behind you. Targeted does not equal locked. You will still loose weapons lock if the mech you are fighting is out of your reticule aiming range, You can not move the aiming reticule out of your HUD range, even if you use free look.

That light running circles around a streakapult is still going to be un hitable because the Streaker will not have a target for the lock on for long enough to shoot.

except that the catapult can turn its torso by allmost 180°

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Ok I've been given the green light to finally post things. Soooo many misconceptions. I'll start with this thread because I was quite proud of what I did with them!

Thontor, on 22 November 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Does AMS work against SSRMs? seems like they might be too quick for the AMS to have a chance

Yes AMS works against SSRM.
As of 1.050 SSRMS2 have 1 hitpoint. AMS does 2 damage per second. So if a SSRMS volley flies towards the target for more than a second both missiles will be intercepted. Max range is 270m Speed is 200.

--


-Yes they 'should' hit 100% if unobstructed to target. That is by design, that is what they do in lore. (www.sarna.net) I'm still letting physics take care of the collision itself.


-ECM will work against SSRM like it will work against LRM


-1.050 BUG An invalid target bone made it into a mech and you will see some SSRMS flying around the mech but should impact eventually. Issue has already been addressed.


- SSRM used to go for center torso area only, that is when they used to be OP. Now the target location is spread throughout the mech.


-One thing I'm trying to solve is the SSRMs firing out at a perpendicular angle to your mech as some people have mentioned. Target lock is broken at 45 degrees instantaneously but they still look weird flying out at those angles. Latency also plays a part. I had a system in place where the streaks would launch straight out for 10m or so and then start tracking the target but it didn't look as good as I hoped.


I'll try to relay more info when I see misinformation in posts in the next coming weeks and months as I get used to this forum stuff.

[Xenok]

Franklen Avignon, on 20 November 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

The only problem with the Gausspult is that it's hardpoints are put so close together, you are practically guaranteed a dual hit every time. Trust me, as I ran at a full 60+ kph perpendicular to a Cat at over 500 meters, the headshot it easily placed on my cockpit that instantly killed me says there needs to be a little bit of a tweak.

If you went perpendicular to the cat you would never reach it. Moving at a right angle would take you away from the cat. You ran out in the open or/and in a straight line so the cat pilot could judge where you were going to be. I have a Gauss-pult and pilot it often. Its hard to hit a moving target that weaves a bit, its easy to hit one that goes in a straight line (angled or straight at/away) or stand still. Its amazing the number of people that run without weaving. Larger mechs can still weave.

Gauss are fine, Streaks are fine. The only broken thing about the streaks is the cabin knock that occurs with them. two two point missiles are not going to knock around a mech with 400 points of armor on it. its like a BB gun hitting a man. Remove the cabin knock and they would be fine.

[FallguySoldier]

Dailey, on 20 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

From patch notes: Streaks (SSRMs) are now going to hit 100% of the time. Are you kidding me, nothing should hit 100%. I guess now we will be playing SSRM online instead of LRM online. Who would want to play anything else now?

ACs and Gauss Rifles (from a good player) are still OP compared to SSRMs. You also forget that a streaker needs to be dangerously close for the weapon to work because of the close range, plus it's a lock-on so before the player can start firing sporadically, he's gotta wait for that red crosshair. Case in point, I'm a streaker and I got pwned real bad against a Cataphract who was all ballistics on a one-on-one (then again I had already taken some damage prior). Last but not least, SSRMs now are a viable way of taking down light mechs, which were a nightmare for heavies. Nothing wrong with SSRMs this time around.

Edited by FallguySoldier, 22 November 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Jyi, on 21 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Ok, so I ran into a new phenomenom today: the Streakapult who chainfires SSRM2's. I think it was 2x SSRM2 being fired at a time, constantly, flashing and rocking my cockpit so it was absolutely impossible to shoot back and hit anything.

This can't be intended. There's no way to win a brawl versus a Catapult like this in any other setup. My cockpit is rocking like there were 5 mechs constantly shooting me with big autocannons.

This needs to be hotfixed or we'll just see another wave of Streakapult bs like in the first open beta patch.

I've encountered these plenty, it's not 'impossible' just more difficult, as intended.

[Asatruer]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

Ok I've been given the green light to finally post things.

Congrats, and welcome to forums!

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

-Yes they 'should' hit 100% if unobstructed to target. That is by design, that is what they do in lore. (www.sarna.net) I'm still letting physics take care of the collision itself.

As I said earlier in this thread:

Asatruer, on 21 November 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

This is sort of true, but not completely true. In BattleTech TT, the Streak SRMs still have to make hit rolls every turn they are attempted to be fired. If that hit roll is unsuccessful, the Streak SRM does not fire. If that hit roll is successful, the Streak SRM fires and all of the missiles hit, each rolling a different location on the hit location table.

Example.
CPTL-A1 with the LRMs replaced with 6 SSRM2s trying to target a Jenner (JR7-D) with 2 SSRM2s. Range of 5 hexes (180m), one hex of light woods, and the Jenner is in depth 1 water, CPTL walked four hexes, Jenner ran 11 hexes.
Base hit chance on 2d6 4+modifiers
CPTL +2 for medium range, +1 for walking, +1 for light woods, +1 for water, +4 for targets 11 hex movement. +9 total, for a hit chance of 13 or greater on 2d6. Auto miss, so no fire.
JR7 +2 for medium, +2 for running, +1 for light woods, +1 for four hex movement. +6 total, for a hit chance of 10 or greater on 2D6. Jenner Pilot rolls 10 on one SSRM, and 7 on the second. One SSRM2 fires and hits with 2 missiles.

Turn two. No woods, no water, movement speeds unchanged, but range now 3 hexes short range (90m)
CPTL hit chance 10. Rolls 7, 10, 8, 3, 4, and 10 for two SSRMs firing and 4 missiles hitting.
JR7 hit chance 7. Rolls 7 and 9 for two SSRMs firing and 4 missiles hitting.



Here in MWO the CPTL locks once, and hits with all 12 missiles every cooldown (other than cover or latency) unless the JR7 dies, or breaks lock. If each pull of the trigger for SSRMs actually shot a targeting laser once every cooldown, and if the laser makes contact with an enemy mech the SSRM fired, things would be a bit closer to BattleTech style SSRMs.

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

I'll try to relay more info when I see misinformation in posts in the next coming weeks and months as I get used to this forum stuff.

Fantastic!
We, I am sure I am not alone in this, really appreciate responses and discourse with the devs.

[Bigboote]

Let me see.... Streaks hit 100% of the time with lock... Yep same as it should be. If you think they are OP then get some and if it turns out everyone has them I'm sure something will be done. If you want to fix something make it so snipers can hit you from 1 side of the map to the other, if it weren't for some rocks the full map would be a kill zone.

PS there are counter measures for missles.... Get some.

Edited by Bigboote, 22 November 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Kobura]

There are some things that can just never be translated from tabletop to first-person.

Maybe have some mechanic so that the target lock has to be held for the (short) time that missiles are in-air? So the last-second slamfires aren't valid? Or a light that manages to get on a StrkCat's butt gets a chance?

Also, what are the actual numbers for missile damage? I have a chart ( http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1472669 ) but it's making some assumptions.

I'd love help to help YOU in your quest to clear up misconceptions!

[MagicHamsta]

SpiralRazor, on 20 November 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Mustrum...they are still mostly useless against anything over the medium weight class.

It will take you forever and a day to kill heavies/assaults.

Only useless & takes forever and a day in the hands of a poor pilot.

Rear armor. That is all.

[Kobura]

MagicHamsta, on 22 November 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Only useless & takes forever and a day in the hands of a poor pilot.

Rear armor. That is all.

No matter how big I am, the only person that gets my butt is my boyfriend. Only rear armor in the hands of a poor pilot, right back atcha

[Bigboote]

I'm currently driving a missile rack (don't blame me I got to pug every map) and if someone come up behind me then its my team that has let me down or I've extended myself too far so I have come to terms with it. If you think you should be 1337 every match then you will never be happy and if MWO tries to make you happy it will go the way of SWG (2nd best MMO ever once upon a time).

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Mmmmm love numbers. I'll make an argument for the designers. I'm sure they've mentioned it in one way or another. Here's my interpretation.

The die rolls you describe have to be applied somehow to the constant passage of time.
Your ability to lock someone and fire depends on your mouse skill (to hover over a target, making it harder if both of you are moving, distance etc), lag, frames per sec, things in the way of your target, physics etc. which can be equated to the die rolls.

It can be argued that the time it takes you to lock on and fire with the SSRM would be the number of turns, converted to real time, it would take for you to hit with all missiles using die rolls.

I could roll all double 6's or roll snake eyes all the time, it's a tricky subject.


What I'm hoping will be addressed first is the cockpit shake/blur that occurs. I do not know of any TT rules that give penalties to die roles for taking damage last turn and it seems like that's what the effect equates to. Once players are not shell shocked by the constant barrage damage received they will be able to more effectively maneuver away from danger or address the threat head on and take the aggressor out.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Mmmmm love numbers. I'll make an argument for the designers. I'm sure they've mentioned it in one way or another. Here's my interpretation.

You love numbers? How do you feel about numbers and charts?

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 22 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

Ok I've been given the green light to finally post things. Soooo many misconceptions. I'll start with this thread because I was quite proud of what I did with them!




Yes AMS works against SSRM.
As of 1.050 SSRMS2 have 1 hitpoint. AMS does 2 damage per second. So if a SSRMS volley flies towards the target for more than a second both missiles will be intercepted. Max range is 270m Speed is 200.

--


-Yes they 'should' hit 100% if unobstructed to target. That is by design, that is what they do in lore. (www.sarna.net) I'm still letting physics take care of the collision itself.


-ECM will work against SSRM like it will work against LRM


-1.050 BUG An invalid target bone made it into a mech and you will see some SSRMS flying around the mech but should impact eventually. Issue has already been addressed.


- SSRM used to go for center torso area only, that is when they used to be OP. Now the target location is spread throughout the mech.


-One thing I'm trying to solve is the SSRMs firing out at a perpendicular angle to your mech as some people have mentioned. Target lock is broken at 45 degrees instantaneously but they still look weird flying out at those angles. Latency also plays a part. I had a system in place where the streaks would launch straight out for 10m or so and then start tracking the target but it didn't look as good as I hoped.


I'll try to relay more info when I see misinformation in posts in the next coming weeks and months as I get used to this forum stuff.

Thanks for the information on how things work, but there weren't really many surprises to me, to be honest.

I think the question you have to ask yourself is: Is the benefit of auto-locking just worth 0,5 seconds compared to the SRM2? And how will this scale for SSRMs?

Consider how difficult it actually is to hit with all SRMs. Even with Artemis (which already raises the weight of every SRM above the weight of the SSRM2), it's not that simple.

In the table top, SSRMs would always hit, but what that meant in the table top was that if an attack roll indicated a miss, the SSRM simply didn't fire. We cannot really replicate this in a real time game, but we can think about how this affected the SSRMs - it effectively fired less often than regular SRMs, but when it fired, it hit. Consequently, if you lower the SSRM rate of fire, you get close to balance between SRMs and SSRMs.
Start with a second more and see how it works.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 November 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[Ninja Snarl]

Interesting read, considering streaks still core for every kill, which means they're still going for the CT.

Also find this very interesting (it's this designer's profile).
http://mwomercs.com/...-dziegielewski/

TAG COMMANDO
COM-2D
STREAK SRM2 x3
TAG LASER
STANDARD 145 ENGINE
11 HEATSINKS

Basically, claims of streak "balance" from somebody sporting a light mech (so it has enormous lag armor) and boating streaks plus TAG. Certainly no conflict of interest there.

I imagine that if he were on the other end of constant public matches against streak boats where you can't see thanks to insane cockpit rocking and get repeatedly cored via 100%-accurate CT-targeted missiles, the claims might be different. I've been playing since near the beginning of the closed beta and the streaks are anything but balanced, or even close to it.

Also important to point out that AMS dealing with SSRMs means a certain amount of distant involved and that only one streak is getting fired and they need a second of travel time. Considering the number of Streak Cats that run with an XL engine and charge right into your face, AMS almost never gets the chance to shoot down more than a few streaks and then it's game over.

Edited by Ninja Snarl, 22 November 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Charles Seneca]

For the love of god, Ninja Snarl, don't complain about the cockpit rock caused by incessant SSRMs - some highly intelligent person (sarcasm) might think you just want to make the game easier

Edited by Charles Seneca, 22 November 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Ninja Snarl]

Maybe not easier, but the game being playable again by getting streaks somewhere reasonable would be a big step.