410 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

Jack Gallows, on 08 December 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

Which Kerensky should have done (become the new First Lord.) He had just saved the IS from the usurper and should have placed himself as First Lord. I can't disrespect his decision to leave fully, as I think he had considered what I suggest, which could have caused more fighting due to some successor states possibly not accepting him as the new first lord...especially with an army at his back (that could have fractured.)

Regardless, the Clans are a perversion (at least, the Crusader mindset,) of what Kerensky would have wanted. He'd be rolling in his grave to see how low his people would fall in their desire to return to the IS.




That is true, but it pinpoints one of the major problems with the Clans, they don't understand their enemy while expecting said enemy to understand them. They might see it as inconsequential as they feel they're "in the right" but considering that every "bondsman" or prisoner they take doesn't feel the way they do. It also doesn't change the fact that they use it on IS troops, forcing them into a system with no real choice. Like I said, it's a sight better then being an outright prisoner...but not by much.

The Great Father was not about to take advantage of the situation. He was no opportunist. He could have stepped in ("I just saved all your *****, I should be in charge.") He did have army & could have pressed the situation ("I just saved all your *****, I should be in charge. While you make up your minds about my selection as First Lord, take a look out of your windows & say hi to my army.")

He realized the IS was broken beyond repair & a fresh start was needed.

Completely disagree there. The Warden philosophy is based on a condition that was never fulfilled therefore they have no case whatsoever.

Kudzu, on 08 December 2011 - 04:53 PM, said:

That's more of a matter of cultural and moral relativism-- and both sides were guilty of it. Both sides were separated for hundreds of years and then came back together with vastly different ideas about what is right and wrong.

Keep in mind the the clans had been raised to believe that the political infighting and backstabbing of the great houses are what caused the downfall of the star league (their version of utopia). In effect, the IS as a whole were either evil or horribly misguided.

Being taken as a bondsman is considered an honor in clan society-- you may have been defeated but you fought with enough skill to earn the respect of the victors so much so that they would take you into their clan (which was obviously better than the one you were in because they won, right?). In return, bondsmen were expected to conform to their new clan, learn it's ways, and integrate themselves into their new society. To someone who grew up outside of that belief system it looks like slavery at first glance, but when you peer closer you see it is a highly codified set of customs that allow a captured opponent to "earn" their trust and eventually become apart of the new clan with no stigma attached. Many captured warriors eventually go on to high ranks, including becoming Khans in their new clans.

Not necessarily. That battle may not have gone your way but that does not mean the enemy is better than you. Unforeseen circumstances may have arisen that were beyond your control. Remember also that not all bondsmen are made warriors & not all warriors are kept by the Clan that captured them, some are returned. Keep in mind as well the honor of being captured only applies to Clans that do not hate each other in which case if the captured party became a bondsman there would be a serious lack of cooperation or they would invoke bondsref.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 December 2011 - 05:45 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

********************sorry double post

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 December 2011 - 05:40 PM.

[Kudzu]

Jack Gallows, on 08 December 2011 - 05:09 PM, said:

The point was, that even the Clans should have thought that the IS pilots they took as bondsman would have balked at it, and may not have seen what was going on as an honor. Same goes for the IS who take Clan pilots, they'd put them in jails/etc because they don't use the concept of making bondsmen because it's new and different, and alien to them.

Well, considering the clans were coming back to show the IS the "errors of their ways", I'd say that it was more along the lines of forcing the conversion to a new way of life. After the Is won a few battles there were a couple of conversations in the books about the captured clansmen asking what clan they belong to now and the confusion it caused the spheroids.

Quote

Phelan, and many others may have risen to high ranking, but they don't really touch on people who don't want to integrate. I'd assume they either get placed in a lower caste, or they die for various reasons (not being good enough in a mech/etc.) Can't imagine everyone would turn their backs on the IS like Phelan, which is effectively what he did even if in long term he returns to it.

For warriors, I'd say laborer or technician castes more than likely, with the true malcontents treated like bandit caste members. As far as civilians, I would think they would be integrated back along the same lines as what they were doing before their planet was conquered.

[Technocide Rex]

Heck, I'll Merc for anyone. Clan or IS, who cares? As long as they bring the cash, I'll bring the bash...

[Gremlich Johns]

Technocide Rex, on 08 December 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

Heck, I'll Merc for anyone. Clan or IS, who cares? As long as they bring the cash, I'll bring the bash...

The Clans did not use Mercs.

[Diablo48]

Kudzu, on 08 December 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

You mean like how there won't be any Clans at all for the first year of the game?

That is assuming the game is fully released soon. It is very possible that the release will be after the start of the Clan invasion, and even if it is not they could very easily make the Clans a possible faction for new characters.

Jack Gallows, on 08 December 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

That is true, but it pinpoints one of the major problems with the Clans, they don't understand their enemy while expecting said enemy to understand them. They might see it as inconsequential as they feel they're "in the right" but considering that every "bondsman" or prisoner they take doesn't feel the way they do. It also doesn't change the fact that they use it on IS troops, forcing them into a system with no real choice. Like I said, it's a sight better then being an outright prisoner...but not by much.

You do bring up a fair point in the initial invasion, however people like to exaggerate the Clan's confusion about dealing with IS troops. Per canon, most Clans figured out that IS forces were not like them fairly quickly and took actions to deal with this, however I honestly think becoming a bondsman would be an upgrade for most IS troops over being a regular PoW or being executed which is what most other IS factions would do with prisoners. I would also guess that some kind of accommodations were made for families at least within the Bears and Wolves if they were on-planet (a lot of the opposition were militia troops) or willing to place themselves under Clan rule, although I have no sources for this either way.

[Kudzu]

Diablo48, on 08 December 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

That is assuming the game is fully released soon. It is very possible that the release will be after the start of the Clan invasion, and even if it is not they could very easily make the Clans a possible faction for new characters.

One day here = one day in game. Currently it is Dec 8, 3048 in game. Release is currently scheduled for summer 2012, meaning summer 3049 in game. The Clans do not appear in the actual Inner Sphere until March/April of 3050 with their first wave invasion, but I'm sure we will be seeing many reports of "unidentified attackers" in the Periphery between release and wave 1.

Edited by Kudzu, 08 December 2011 - 06:27 PM.

[Diablo48]

Kudzu, on 08 December 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

One day here = one day in game. Currently it is Dec 8, 3048 in game. Release is currently scheduled for summer 2012, meaning summer 3049 in game. The Clans do not appear in the actual Inner Sphere until March/April of 3050 with their first wave invasion, but I'm sure we will be seeing many reports of "unidentified attackers" in the Periphery between release and wave 1.

Wave zero starts in something like nine months, so if the game is delayed even a little bit it would be possible to have the Clans playable from day one starting with the invasion of the Periphery.

[Kudzu]

Diablo48, on 08 December 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

Wave zero starts in something like nine months, so if the game is delayed even a little bit it would be possible to have the Clans playable from day one starting with the invasion of the Periphery.

On the map the devs provided the wave zero planets are not colored in, I'm assuming that means we won't be playing on them at release (if ever). You'll also notice that the clans are not a faction choice right now.

Is this subject to change? You bet. But I'm also willing to bet they're going to play it smart and introduce the clans later-- after people have gotten into playing their IS mechs/factions and it becomes more of a choice to give up everything they've gained to start over in a new faction. It will also give them a good base of how to balance clantech after seeing data from tens of thousands of games of IS only.

[Pave Low]

No. Great tech but their ideology is not my preference. Why can't the 'lower castes' be pilots? Oh yeah, because they weren't grown in a vat, had their DNA altered and permanently strapped to the inside of a mech?

Then again you had to be socially/family connected to get into House Steiner as a pilot so no side is perfect.

S' why I'm a merc...

[Basch]

Clan Steel Viper
The clans are like having another story within a story, i just like the clan 1 better.
As for the great father, i wish he would have stayed and weathered out untill all the usurpers were either unwilling or unable to fight.
Then perhaps the IS could be fixed to what it should be and the Star League be given to some 1 deemed worthy, but thats not how it happend.
When it comes down to it, we will force the many houses to look at what thay have become, and force them to work together and bring back the Star Leauge.

[Diablo48]

Kudzu, on 08 December 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:

On the map the devs provided the wave zero planets are not colored in, I'm assuming that means we won't be playing on them at release (if ever). You'll also notice that the clans are not a faction choice right now.

Is this subject to change? You bet. But I'm also willing to bet they're going to play it smart and introduce the clans later-- after people have gotten into playing their IS mechs/factions and it becomes more of a choice to give up everything they've gained to start over in a new faction. It will also give them a good base of how to balance clantech after seeing data from tens of thousands of games of IS only.

That was kind of what I was thinking as well, however we are close enough to release that a delay or two could push the timeline up to the Clan invasion and the map is very much up in the air.

Pave Low, on 08 December 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

No. Great tech but their ideology is not my preference. Why can't the 'lower castes' be pilots? Oh yeah, because they weren't grown in a vat, had their DNA altered and permanently strapped to the inside of a mech?

Then again you had to be socially/family connected to get into House Steiner as a pilot so no side is perfect.

S' why I'm a merc...

Actually, in almost all the Clans there are freebirth sibkos that give lower caste members the opportunity to train as warriors and take a trial just like any trueborn cadet. They are not going to be as skilled as trueborn troops on average, but that is very much to be expected when the freeborn cadets do not get the tremendous head start on their training trueborns do.

Also, the Clan caste system is not nearly as ridged as most people think because anyone can declare a trial to enter a new caste where they will compete with an established member in a task appropriate to the new caste. For example, if a laborer wants to become a technician, she would have to prove her ability in a task like repairing a damaged component faster than someone who has already earned his place in the technician caste. If the laborer can win this trial, she will become a member of the technician caste for life unless she elects to try to enter another caste in which case the process repeats itself.

[Jack Gallows]

Jaroth Winson, on 08 December 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

The Great Father was not about to take advantage of the situation. He was no opportunist. He could have stepped in ("I just saved all your *****, I should be in charge.") He did have army & could have pressed the situation ("I just saved all your *****, I should be in charge. While you make up your minds about my selection as First Lord, take a look out of your windows & say hi to my army.")

He realized the IS was broken beyond repair & a fresh start was needed.

A fresh start that would lead to the Clans committing an invasion against the Inner Sphere he left to protect from his own armies. That sounds exactly like what he would have wanted. Seems quite at odds with the reasons he left the Sphere. Lets leave to stop bloodshed, but then come back later and cause more bloodshed. The Crusaders twist the memory of Kerensky to serve themselves, and the Inner Sphere had to pay for it, while they banded together and stopped the Clans (with the exception of Wolf, due to them abstaining from the vote during the Trial of Refusal of the Invasion.) Your invasion caused the downfall of an entire Clan, and killed countless lives for your own desire for combat and "honor." Honor isn't much good to the dead. The Warden's had the right idea, and the Crusader's sully the honor of the Clans and of Kerensky himself.

Jaroth Winson, on 08 December 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

Completely disagree there. The Warden philosophy is based on a condition that was never fulfilled therefore they have no case whatsoever.

I'm going to assume that Wardens got outvoted (and outfought, I'd assume on a per fight basis) by their Crusader brothers to start the invasion. So, they were forced into committing to something they didn't believe in, and Warden's led the charge while trying to do the best they could for the Inner Sphere. When the time was right, they allied against the Crusaders and stopped the invasion.

The Warden's failure was that they did not start a kind of civil war over the initial decision to attack the IS, but they were still bound to the Clan way of thinking too tightly to do otherwise.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 09 December 2011 - 11:26 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Pave Low, on 08 December 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

No. Great tech but their ideology is not my preference. Why can't the 'lower castes' be pilots? Oh yeah, because they weren't grown in a vat, had their DNA altered and permanently strapped to the inside of a mech?

Then again you had to be socially/family connected to get into House Steiner as a pilot so no side is perfect.

S' why I'm a merc...

The Clan Blood Spirit used anybody and everybody to be mech pilots - provided they could prove their worth. You should read the BT information re: the Clans.

[nobby]

Do I want to play a character who is a member of an Interstellar slaver culture who also practice discrimination based on eugenics and a caste based structure that makes it impossible for certain members of said society to have a say in their government?

No.

[Gremlich Johns]

nobby, on 10 December 2011 - 04:27 AM, said:

Do I want to play a character who is a member of an Interstellar slaver culture who also practice discrimination based on eugenics and a caste based structure that makes it impossible for certain members of said society to have a say in their government?

No.

You really need to read the BT information.

The Clans were not slavers. They did discriminate but if you could prove your worth - and there were always opportunities to do so, you could improve your lot and increase your acceptance. And as far as not having a say, most Clansmen considered the courses of action taken by their governments to be reasonable within the context of their particular Clan idiom.

You could describe most of the IS the same way if you take out "eugenics". Also, I don't recall ANY citizenry in the IS really having any impact on governmental decisions - you either were considered leadership or not. Also, in the IS, it was easier to just kill off the captured rabble than to take an interest in their improvement.

Go Clan now.

[feor]

nobby, on 10 December 2011 - 04:27 AM, said:

Do I want to play a character who is a member of an Interstellar slaver culture who also practice discrimination based on eugenics and a caste based structure that makes it impossible for certain members of said society to have a say in their government?

No.

Everyone has a say in the Clan Government (well, everyone outside the Bandit Caste).

It's a might-makes-right society. If Joe-Bob the janitor doesn't agree with something the warriors do, from ordering him to clean up after a particularly nasty party to declaring an invasion of the Inner Sphere, they are welcome to issue a Trial of Grievance. But they're going to have to fight the people who made the decision (or their representatives) for it. For a labourer to do so is looked down on as someone being unduly uppity, but if he wins the clans are bound by the victory.

The challenging person (as long as he hasn't been declared an outlaw) doesn't even have to be a member of that clan. Both Tukayyid and the Great Refusal on Strana Mechty happened because someone from a completely different culture got to have a say in the running of the Clans, as long as they can prove their martial might.

[nobby]

Gremlich Johns, on 10 December 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

You really need to read the BT information.

The Clans were not slavers. They did discriminate but if you could prove your worth - and there were always opportunities to do so, you could improve your lot and increase your acceptance. And as far as not having a say, most Clansmen considered the courses of action taken by their governments to be reasonable within the context of their particular Clan idiom.

You could describe most of the IS the same way if you take out "eugenics". Also, I don't recall ANY citizenry in the IS really having any impact on governmental decisions - you either were considered leadership or not. Also, in the IS, it was easier to just kill off the captured rabble than to take an interest in their improvement.

Go Clan now.

They certainly are slavers. In Falcon Guard the Jade Falcons are forcibly removing civilians from their planet to be made "bondsmen."
Worse even is that they then attempt to reprogram their slaves. So not only are they forcibly removing people from their families and friends, they are destroying who they are.

Historically the best comparison would be the enslavement of Africans and the destruction of their culture and identity that that entailed.

[nobby]

feor, on 10 December 2011 - 09:15 PM, said:

Everyone has a say in the Clan Government (well, everyone outside the Bandit Caste).

It's a might-makes-right society. If Joe-Bob the janitor doesn't agree with something the warriors do, from ordering him to clean up after a particularly nasty party to declaring an invasion of the Inner Sphere, they are welcome to issue a Trial of Grievance. But they're going to have to fight the people who made the decision (or their representatives) for it. For a labourer to do so is looked down on as someone being unduly uppity, but if he wins the clans are bound by the victory.

The challenging person (as long as he hasn't been declared an outlaw) doesn't even have to be a member of that clan. Both Tukayyid and the Great Refusal on Strana Mechty happened because someone from a completely different culture got to have a say in the running of the Clans, as long as they can prove their martial might.

Everyone has a say huh? So do the lower castes have a say in who becomes Khan? Even the most intelligent and reasonable of warriors would scoff at the laborers or scientists having a say in who becomes the ruler of the clan.

[feor]

nobby, on 10 December 2011 - 09:24 PM, said:

Everyone has a say huh? So do the lower castes have a say in who becomes Khan? Even the most intelligent and reasonable of warriors would scoff at the laborers or scientists having a say in who becomes the ruler of the clan.

If the labourers disagree with the choice of Khan they can challenge it, yes. They have to fight to prove it, but if they can best the claimant to the Khanship in combat they can refuse his promotion. The warrior may scoff, but if that tech beats them in combat (as humiliating and dishonouring as it would be) they are expected to abide by the results of the battle. (and to not do so would dishonour them even further)

Quote

They certainly are slavers. In Falcon Guard the Jade Falcons are forcibly removing civilians from their planet to be made "bondsmen."
Worse even is that they then attempt to reprogram their slaves. So not only are they forcibly removing people from their families and friends, they are destroying who they are.

Historically the best comparison would be the enslavement of Africans and the destruction of their culture and identity that that entailed.

Not even close.
Bondsman is no slave, the Sphereoids interpreted it as such when the Clans were first doing it, but to be taken as a Bondsman is actually a great honour in the Clans. It them saying "We believe you are of value and are willing to let you return to your previous role in life, once you've adjusted to your new home." There was forcible relocation resulting from that, but the only time I'm familiar with that it was widespread was on Sommerset, and that was done by a Star Colonel who was pretty much certifiably insane from the antagonistic contact he had with the Sommerset Strikers plus EI sickness, and the Clans generally frowned on those actions as bordering on outright Dezgra.

Most of the forcible relocations were a few captured mechwarriors, scientists and technicians from each world. I do believe the world whose fate got decided by a Trial of Possession via Football game (American Football) had a single individual taken as bondsman on the planet: the kicker for the home team (the Clanners brought a team of Elementals and were impressed when the kicker actually scored a field goal against them, making the game's score 83-3)

Most worlds were allowed to continue on much as they always had with a new flag and a new ruler. To alot of the Invasion corridor worlds the clans were just one more distant Successor Lord to rule over them. In fact, alot of worlds ended up really benefiting from the Clan Invasion, as the Clans brought with them technology, and with local manpower and clan Technician caste expertise, were able to build up the infrastructure of those worlds to levels unheard of since the Second Succession War.