289 replies to this topic

[Xyberviri]

MOD please close this thread as it is not constructive, there has already been a announcment made about how streaks are getting nerfed.

[Asakara]

SpiralRazor, on 24 November 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Thats something i hadnt thought about...Leaving all the mechanics of the weapon alone, but requiring a new missile lock...It would give you reason to buy equipment to reduce lock on times.


BUT



How would you account for streaks in chain fire then?? People would just switch to 3/3 or alphas.

I suspect such a change would remove streaks chain firing from being viable. It would remove the constant screen shake from little 5 dmg hits (sorta like a 3 LRM15 atlas) and make streakcat users go 3/3 like you stated doing 15 dmg and 15 dmg like a guasscat staggering shots. Or perhaps they just do full alphas for 30 dmg like a gausscat double hit.

Edited by Asakara, 24 November 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[Marzepans]

They've already said they are going to nerf the SSRMs. Probably going to be spread too. I'm relaxed.

[Lefty Lucy]

Asakara, on 24 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

I apologize but "significantly more difficult" and "just as difficult" mean different things to me... But whatever.

I am glad you like the idea of streaks requiring a new missile lock after each volley. I think it was a good rule by the original creators of Battletech and I suspect that is what PGI will do when they implement the already announced nerf to streaks.

Because it should be "significantly more difficult" than the current implementation, where it's not "just as difficult" to get a lock than it is to hit with a ballistic weapon.

[One Medic Army]

Actually, getting a lock on anything small/fast is pretty difficult on a mech with no lower arm actuators, just saying.
Of course this is mitigated by SSRM A1s going 80+ themselves and having exorcist level torso twist capabilities.

Apart from the screen shake, which needs to go or get toned down regardless of anything that gets done to SSRMs, I just think they're a bit too good for the low ammo usage/low heat/low weight/ low crit slots they require.

Nobody ever said: "OMG it's a fast (84-90kph depending on speed tweak) Hunchback with 6 medium lasers, everyone focus fire" Nobody on my premade's ever said "OMG it's a fast awesome with 7 medium lasers, kill it now".
Just food for thought, Streakcats are a danger beyond what other mechs are with what should be a similarly damaging armament with similar speed profiles. (Hunch has less armor yes, but the Awesome has more).

Right now I'd say that an SSRM2 could be changed out with a standard SRM6 for similar offensive power (depending on pilot skill, SRM6 requires aiming). The SRM6 does more damage, but can miss and w/o artemis has even lower effective range. The problem is that the SRM6 should be flat out better than the SSRM2 in purely offensive capabilities. The SRM6 weighs more, is bigger, uses more ammo, and produces more heat.

Edited by One Medic Army, 24 November 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[GrimReality]

Reading over this thread (man it's a long one, and I'm about to make it longer!) and in my own experience since the closed beta, the issue is more in the fact of how the SSRM's affect the ability of the victim to fight back. The screen shake and blur are more of a killer than the pure DPS of the weapons (talking chain-fire, not alpha-strike, mind you).

Pro streak cat players keep saying:
1) 270m max range is a liability
2) lock-on requirement to fire is a liability
3) no backup weapons are a liability
4) relatively low DPS compared to similar weapons is a liability
5) the speed of the Cat is a liability
6) it's a team game and teamwork trumps all
7) SSRM's aren't the only weapon that make your cockpit shake and blur like it's in an epileptic seizure

To those I say...

#1 The max range is a true liability, but how often do you engage a mech outside of 300m? Maybe quite a bit if you're a sniper or LRM boat, but for everybody else, even if you have a well-balanced versatile build, chances are you can only do so much to a person at medium to long range. And if he can only engage you within 270m, he's not just going to sit there and let you pound or even peck away at a safe distance, he's going to close that distance, and if he knows what he's doing he's not just going to run straight at you so that you can keep hitting until he's within range to fight back. You can't just make a blanket assumption that all streak-Cat pilots are newbs that don't know how to play this game.

#2 Lock-on to fire could only be seen as a liability if it were more like the table-top game in that you lost your lock after each launcher fired. This could be pretty interesting and I would really like to see PGI look into this. Otherwise, it gives a player a built-in auto-aim feature and I see no drawbacks or limitations for the user.

#3 Having no back-up weapons is a good drawback, but considering the other advantages a streak-cat pilot has, it doesn't really seem like enough on its own to balance the playing field.

#4 The DPS for a SSRM is pretty low, but added together, and put into chain-fire, those little numbers add up quick and since it's all torso hits and every missile lands on target (unless a few get obstructed or shot down by AMS...good luck) the effectiveness of the damage they do is amplified.

#5 As for the Cat's speed, it can be outfitted to outrun (or at least keep up with) just about every mech except for lights and a few modified mechs in other weight classes. And odds are, if somebody is equipping a Cat with 6 streaks, then he's also dropping a faster engine in as well. I don't think I've encountered a streak-Cat that I could outrun in my 90kph Hunchback, yet, before it could deal mortal damage to me.

#6 And it is always true that good teamwork can overcome any odds.... but.... are we assuming that streak-Cats are lone-wolves? I don't think I've encountered many that didn't run with at least one or two other mechs. It's hard enough to deal with one OP'ed mech, but even if you have a group, if the streak-Cat has a group as well, then all bets are off.

#7 Finally, yes, we're getting to the REAL issue! Since the intro of the new Cat... the Cataphract, there's been a lot of boating of AC2's (up to quads, if I'm not mistaken). Even a single or double mounting of AC2's, AC5's or UAC5's is enough to rattle you around in your cockpit like a rock in a tumbler. But, even when you compare AC's, LRM's or Art-SRM's to the SSRM and there's still the distinct advantage of 100% hits until ammo is depleted, target escapes 270m range, or, more likely, until the target is dead.

The thing is, across the board, the biggest complaint with boating missiles and AC's is the extreme amount of shake and blur that they cause to their targets. Hell with the DPS! If a pilot could just see well enough to fight back, none of this would even matter! So, why not remedy all of this silliness by nerfing the ridiculous amount of shake/blur that causes victims to not be able to fight back? I think that's the best option and the least likely to cause community backlash (though of course there will always be some who don't like it). You can't please everybody, but I think a shake/blur nerf would do the most good for the largest number of us all.

"It's not the size of the wave that matters, it's the motion of the ocean!"

Edited by GrimReality, 24 November 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[MWHawke]

Cel, on 24 November 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Your whining is completely unfounded and your reasoning on skill is totally skewed. There is no skill in standing still and shooting as much as there is no skill in automatically walking and shooting. Ever heard of throttle? such a huge difference, who could surmount to such a level of skill?


Wrong. I can still shoot you on my streak. I carry a beagle. Nice try though.

You should read carefully. Your understanding of English has to be atrocious. You said skill-less mech right? Skill-less = no skill. So, go back to kindergarten and learn English.

[MWHawke]

One Medic Army, on 24 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Actually, getting a lock on anything small/fast is pretty difficult on a mech with no lower arm actuators, just saying.
Of course this is mitigated by SSRM A1s going 80+ themselves and having exorcist level torso twist capabilities.

Apart from the screen shake, which needs to go or get toned down regardless of anything that gets done to SSRMs, I just think they're a bit too good for the low ammo usage/low heat/low weight/ low crit slots they require.

Nobody ever said: "OMG it's a fast (84-90kph depending on speed tweak) Hunchback with 6 medium lasers, everyone focus fire" Nobody on my premade's ever said "OMG it's a fast awesome with 7 medium lasers, kill it now".
Just food for thought, Streakcats are a danger beyond what other mechs are with what should be a similarly damaging armament with similar speed profiles. (Hunch has less armor yes, but the Awesome has more).

Right now I'd say that an SSRM2 could be changed out with a standard SRM6 for similar offensive power (depending on pilot skill, SRM6 requires aiming). The SRM6 does more damage, but can miss and w/o artemis has even lower effective range. The problem is that the SRM6 should be flat out better than the SSRM2 in purely offensive capabilities. The SRM6 weighs more, is bigger, uses more ammo, and produces more heat.

If they fixed the netcode instead of listening and overreacting to all these complaints about weapons, then the lasers, ACs, SRMs and Gausses will come up to par with Streaks. The issue of OP is that netcode is failing to detect hits accurately from the other weapons except Streaks. Imagine if your lasers were hitting exactly where you pointed it on the mech rather than hitting the area behind your reticle.

[vifoxe]

Asakara, on 21 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...issile_Launcher

Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway.

**** your lore! Balance the damn game!

[MWHawke]

GrimReality, on 24 November 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

#1 The max range is a true liability, but how often do you engage a mech outside of 300m? Maybe quite a bit if you're a sniper or LRM boat, but for everybody else, even if you have a well-balanced versatile build, chances are you can only do so much to a person at medium to long range. And if he can only engage you within 270m, he's not just going to sit there and let you pound or even peck away at a safe distance, he's going to close that distance, and if he knows what he's doing he's not just going to run straight at you so that you can keep hitting until he's within range to fight back. You can't just make a blanket assumption that all streak-Cat pilots are newbs that don't know how to play this game. #2 Lock-on to fire could only be seen as a liability if it were more like the table-top game in that you lost your lock after each launcher fired. This could be pretty interesting and I would really like to see PGI look into this. Otherwise, it gives a player a built-in auto-aim feature and I see no drawbacks or limitations for the user. #3 Having no back-up weapons is a good drawback, but considering the other advantages a streak-cat pilot has, it doesn't really seem like enough on its own to balance the playing field. #4 The DPS for a SSRM is pretty low, but added together, and put into chain-fire, those little numbers add up quick and since it's all torso hits and every missile lands on target (unless a few get obstructed or shot down by AMS...good luck) the effectiveness of the damage they do is amplified. #5 As for the Cat's speed, it can be outfitted to outrun (or at least keep up with) just about every mech except for lights and a few modified mechs in other weight classes. And odds are, if somebody is equipping a Cat with 6 streaks, then he's also dropping a faster engine in as well. I don't think I've encountered a streak-Cat that I could outrun in my 90kph Hunchback, yet, before it could deal mortal damage to me. #6 And it is always true that good teamwork can overcome any odds.... but.... are we assuming that streak-Cats are lone-wolves? I don't think I've encountered many that didn't run with at least one or two other mechs. It's hard enough to deal with one OP'ed mech, but even if you have a group, if the streak-Cat has a group as well, then all bets are off. #7 Finally, yes, we're getting to the REAL issue! Since the intro of the new Cat... the Cataphract, there's been a lot of boating of AC2's (up to quads, if I'm not mistaken). Even a single or double mounting of AC2's, AC5's or UAC5's is enough to rattle you around in your cockpit like a rock in a tumbler. But, even when you compare AC's, LRM's or Art-SRM's to the SSRM and there's still the distinct advantage of 100% hits until ammo is depleted, target escapes 270m range, or, more likely, until the target is dead. The thing is, across the board, the biggest complaint with boating missiles and AC's is the extreme amount of shake and blur that they cause to their targets. Hell with the DPS! If a pilot could just see well enough to fight back, none of this would even matter! So, why not remedy all of this silliness by nerfing the ridiculous amount of shake/blur that causes victims to not be able to fight back? I think that's the best option and the least likely to cause community backlash (though of course there will always be some who don't like it). You can't please everybody, but I think a shake/blur nerf would do the most good for the largest number of us all. "It's not the size of the wave that matters, it's the motion of the ocean!"

1) A better mech pilot will always have the upper hand and shouldn't this be true?
2) Getting out of 270m range, torso twisting, running around helps when fighting streaks.
3) What other advantages do Streakcats have?
4) So too direct hits from any other weapons.
5) Your HBK has the ability to go fast too right? Actually faster, due to the difference of 15 tons.
6) Have you seen a Streakcat shredded by LRMs? I have.
7) I agree with the smoke obscuration although I think that if they fixed netcode, the other weapons will rank right up there with Streaks

[StandingCow]

I have been playing a streak cat today just to see what it's like now.... and... yea it needs the nerf bat.

1. Reduce rocking significantly.
2. Make AMS hit streak missles.

Those two alone should help a lot with streak cats, and not hurt other streak builds badly. I think ECM will help out a lot too.

Edited by StandingCow, 25 November 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Got a new Computer. Got good frame rates. Streak Cats suck up close! Don't NERF them Its good that they suck! We need Mechs like this to beat the Clans.

[Franchi]

StandingCow, on 25 November 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

I have been playing a streak cat today just to see what it's like now.... and... yea it needs the nerf bat.

1. Reduce rocking significantly.
2. Make AMS hit streak missles.

Those two alone should help a lot with streak cats, and not hurt other streak builds badly. I think ECM will help out a lot too.

I love it when people claim they played a streak cat, then claim that AMS doesn't engage streaks. Must make it easy for devs to decide what posts to flat out ignore.

[Vodrin Thales]

SpiralRazor, on 24 November 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Thats something i hadnt thought about...Leaving all the mechanics of the weapon alone, but requiring a new missile lock...It would give you reason to buy equipment to reduce lock on times.


BUT



How would you account for streaks in chain fire then?? People would just switch to 3/3 or alphas.

Alpha's increase the risk and difficulty. Streaks generate a surprising amount of heat and it is very easy to innadvertantly shut down if you are constantly firing large banks at once.

[MWHawke]

StandingCow, on 25 November 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

I have been playing a streak cat today just to see what it's like now.... and... yea it needs the nerf bat.

1. Reduce rocking significantly.
2. Make AMS hit streak missles.

Those two alone should help a lot with streak cats, and not hurt other streak builds badly. I think ECM will help out a lot too.

Reduce the smoke as well. A lot of justified complaints that the smoke obscures views, although personally, I use the big red targeting reticle to aim at which appears through the smoke after pressing R, unless you have not targeted the mech and want to take it on individually, without letting your lancemates 'steal' the kill.

[Predator01cz]

JokerVictor, on 21 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

This is specifically what I'm referring to. And because of the lock-on mechanic, which is apparently a downside, there's no way to effectively stop them from shooting you... apart from disarming them, which apparently is fun and easy when you can't see anything. Man, I must really suck.

Except you can simply shut down and he can't shoot you at all, and if you're not fighting alone (out of dumbness or because rest of your team is dead) he'll lock onto another target. You can happily power up and shoot off his hard-to-miss giant streakdumpsters.

[Kyrie]

Predator01cz, on 25 November 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Except you can simply shut down and he can't shoot you at all, and if you're not fighting alone (out of dumbness or because rest of your team is dead) he'll lock onto another target. You can happily power up and shoot off his hard-to-miss giant streakdumpsters.

Unfortunately my good sir, Beagle Active Probe is in the game and permits the owner to target powered down mechs.

[StandingCow]

Franchi, on 25 November 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

I love it when people claim they played a streak cat, then claim that AMS doesn't engage streaks. Must make it easy for devs to decide what posts to flat out ignore.

Cute, but I never noticed AMS hitting my streaks at all, nor going off when I was being streaked. If they already do hit streaks then perhaps make streaks move a bit slower to give AMS more time to hit them.

Edited by StandingCow, 25 November 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Predator01cz]

It's just another role in the mech group. I guard all the atlases from annoying jenners and commandos. Too powerful when you get in a position for which it's specialized? Well then you just get what you were asking for. It may deal a lot of damage, but at the same time it may be declawed really easily.

Also there's plenty of light mech pilots mastering the art of lagging and making it impossible to get a lock at all + The removal of collision makes it possible for lights to just run "through" the cat making him lose his lock.

And the best part is when there are streak cats on both teams and they happen to bump into one another with the rest of their teams dealing with the rest of the other team. running in circles dealing the exact same amount of damage to one another makes them both end up without their ears (in a better case, otherwise one ends up dead and the other one crippled to the point of being killed by any beesting) and staring at one another like "well, now what?"

tl;dr streak cats are controversial at best, but not OP

[Magik0012]

My only beef with streaks at the moment is the insane cockpit shake & blur they have.