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So Why Do People Like The Clans?


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#101 Stormwolf

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:19 AM

View PostTank Boy Ken, on 25 January 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:


Oh god thank you. I always hated the Clans but know that you told me that their Leaders are being decided by combat it changes everything. Naturally someone who is good at killing, is a better leader than everyone else. It all makes sense now.


The Khan in a Clan is elected by the Clan council, his/her K/D ratio doesn't really factor in.

#102 Ken Fury

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:28 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 25 January 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:


The Khan in a Clan is elected by the Clan council, his/her K/D ratio doesn't really factor in.


Vladimir Ward says Khan elections can be rebutted by Combat. So Combat > Votes. EVERY decision in the Clans can be rebutted (haha refused) due to Combat.

And I never talked about K/D Ratio, since if you die once it's game over in CANON NOVELS! Death is Canon for the gently caress.

#103 Natasha Kerensky

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

View PostRagor, on 26 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

I had quite the same experience regarding my stance towards the clans like it was described in the OP.

And today?
For me personally there is nothing more disgusting like the clans.
They are a working society among themselves, there system works for them and they are happy.
Even the lower caste are quiet happy. Very important to understand, that they are born the way they are and clanners grew up and got educated the way the clans work.
So for the clanners, no matter what caste, all is fine and nifty.

Why do won't I ever follow their idiology?
Just for one very simple reason which is the basic of mature behaviour:
Respecting others and their opinion.
The clans get back to the Inner Sphere in order to save the Inner Sphere.
Because the Clans decided the Inner Sphere needs to be saved.
The Clans decided the social system of the Inner Sphere is not good.
The Clans decided that the Inner Sphere has to follow the Clan's idiology.

The Clans decided not to ask if there 'help' is wanted.

Comparsion on private level:
When my neighbour just kicks in my door, rapes my wife because he thinks she is unsatified, takes my kids away because he thinks they need a different education and burns down my house in the end because he is sure I'd prefer the flat he prepared for me - sorry, I won't say 'thank you for your help'.

Comparsion on a national level:
When one military forces decides to invade a country to force them to change the religion/way of life/political system it is an act of pure evil - they can call it as much as they want 'this is for the sake of the nation and its inhabitants', it will always be a stance I will never be ok with.


Nobody ever has the right to decide what is good for someone else.


The Inner Sphere might as borked as hell - but it is the Inner Sphere, with their own rules and way of life.
Nobody asked for the Clans or welcomed them - but they still went on.


My fellow Wardens didn't want to invade you guys. It's the warmonger Crusader's fault.

Edited by Natasha Kerensky, 25 January 2013 - 08:18 AM.


#104 Ragor

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:25 AM

View PostNatasha Kerensky, on 25 January 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:


My fellow Wardens didn't want to invade you guys. It's the warmonger Crusader's fault.


Seyla.

I am part of the Wolf Dragoons. Since we know what moral is we fight with and for the Inner Sphere.
To keep the fanatism out of the birthplace of humanity.
Fight for respect of individual rights and the personal choice.

Many call our path betrayal or even backstabbery. We call it conscience. We call it behaving and acting mature.

Edited by Ragor, 25 January 2013 - 08:41 AM.


#105 Stormwolf

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

View PostTank Boy Ken, on 25 January 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:


Vladimir Ward says Khan elections can be rebutted by Combat. So Combat > Votes. EVERY decision in the Clans can be rebutted (haha refused) due to Combat.

And I never talked about K/D Ratio, since if you die once it's game over in CANON NOVELS! Death is Canon for the gently caress.


A trial of refusal is the Clan version of a veto, and the K/D ratio was a bit of a joke here.

Question, why do you like all your own posts?

#106 Ken Fury

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 25 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:


A trial of refusal is the Clan version of a veto, and the K/D ratio was a bit of a joke here.

Question, why do you like all your own posts?


Well if I disliked them there wouldn't be any point to post them in the first place, quiaff?

#107 Two Beans

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:29 AM

Posted Image

#108 IceSerpent

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

View PostTank Boy Ken, on 25 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:


Well if I disliked them there wouldn't be any point to post them in the first place, quiaff?


Neg, there is no point in posting what you post regardless.

#109 Ken Fury

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:00 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 25 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:


Neg, there is no point in posting what you post regardless.


So you disagree with me on the topic of the Clans using Violence to ultimately settle their disputes, quineg? OR do you think every Clanner should know that, quiaff?

#110 Sadistic Savior

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostCG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 24 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Your born into the Laborer caste, lets take a look at your life.
Since you were born from laborer parents, you WILL be a laborer. Only very rare exceptions will head to the warrior caste, and IF they survive they can expect to be sent to a backwater world and put in a crappy mech.


From what I understand, it isn't all or nothing...a laborer could also be "promoted" to a scientist or tech or whatever.

View PostCG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 24 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

You cannot vote, you cannot hold a position in the government. Your government is the warrior caste, and they have a special way of describing you, "Freebirth Scum." AKA barely human


So? It is not like the IS is any different. In a lot of ways it is even worse. Feudalism is the norm in the IS, and after that, dictatorships.

#111 IceSerpent

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostTank Boy Ken, on 25 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:


So you disagree with me on the topic of the Clans using Violence to ultimately settle their disputes, quineg? OR do you think every Clanner should know that, quiaff?


Neg, I disagree with your apparent idea that posting useless stuff on the forums (a.k.a. trolling) is an activity one should be engaged in.

#112 Ken Fury

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 25 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:


Neg, I disagree with your apparent idea that posting useless stuff on the forums (a.k.a. trolling) is an activity one should be engaged in.


I disagree with the idea that roleplaying Clans, is an activity one should be engaged in.

#113 IceSerpent

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:22 PM

View PostTank Boy Ken, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:


I disagree with the idea that roleplaying Clans, is an activity one should be engaged in.


But you do agree that posting this conveys no useful information to anybody and therefore qualifies as trolling, quiaff?

#114 Ragor

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:33 PM

View PostIceSerpent, on 25 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:


Neg, there is no point in posting what you post regardless.


Because he speaks out the truth?

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#115 IceSerpent

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostRagor, on 25 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Because he speaks out the truth?


Actually, because he doesn't - "is decided by combat" and "can be vetoed by combat" are two completely different things.

#116 Werewolf486 ScorpS

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

The creation of the clans was meant to help with dropping interest and sales of Battletech. Instead it made the game unbalanced and in my opinion helped to drag out the slow death of the Table Top game, which was inevitable anyway with the advent of electronic games. Had the Clans not been introduced then every MW game would be more balanced without offending one group or the other. The Clans help to cause rifts in the MW and BT community, far worse then the ones between houses and mercs.

In my opinion, the Clans were a BIG mistake in direction. The only reason to choose them is the power/tech that they bring. That being said, they have some of the coolest mechs ever and I especially enjoy the IIc line mechs!

#117 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostNatasha Kerensky, on 25 January 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:


My fellow Wardens didn't want to invade you guys. It's the warmonger Crusader's fault.


Stravag! Contractions!

It is very rare that a clan's populous is homogeneous in the sense of Warden or Crusader. Look at how Clan Wolf went from Warden to Crusader, or how Nova Cat went Crusader to Warden. This only happens when there is a pretty decent split in the population's stance. Notable exceptions are Clans Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar, who, if not homogeneous, are/were so totally skewed in their ideological stance towards one direction or the other that they are safely considered, for all intents and purposes, pure Crusader.

I do wonder, though. Aside from Clan Wolf in Exile, are there any "pure" Warden Clans?

However, aff. I consider myself a Warden, even though the Nova Cats as a whole identify as a Crusader Clan at the start of the invasion. Better us take control than them, basically. If a Clan will rule the inner sphere, you bet your barbarian butts you would rather be under the auspices of a Warden than a Crusader. There is some leeway in the Clans for personal motivation, as long as it does not interfere with orders (or, if it does, so long as it provides significant results).

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 January 2013 - 03:25 PM.


#118 Void Angel

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

View PostGabrielKnight, on 26 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

There was a time in my wayward youth when I was a Clanner at heart, but after a few years away from Battletech I've come back to this game and frankly...the clans repulse me. Institutionalised racism, caste based society, eugenics, disregard for sound military tactics... No thanks.
I'd rather be freebirth scum these days! Maybe I've grown up a bit. B)
What draws you to the Clan way?

Disclaimer: This is meant to be a lighthearted post. Please don't degenerate into flames. ;)

No flames here! I don't make any promises for the Clanners, though.

The Clans are attractive to many players because of their technological superiority. These are the same people selling their Ravens in droves since the patch (nyah-nyah, jerks!) For others, I think the main draw is the illusion of moral standards and rectitude - the rigid honor system; the ritualized warfare which minimizes collateral damage; things like that. The problem is that they're racist, fascist eugenicists - and that's Bad News. We had enough of that crap after about 1945 - remember, eugenics is the pseudoscience which led directly to sterilization of "undesirables," such as the handicapped - oh yes, and the Holocaust. Thus far, the Clans' honor system and their resort to successful genetic augmentation to support their eugenics have succeeded (to various degrees) in limiting such things in their own culture, but that's not going to happen for long if they were to win - because they're also fascists.

The really scary thing about fascism is that it requires an enemy both as a justification for its authoritarianism and as an outlet for the social stresses generated by that authoritarianism. This enemy must be both perceived as a danger and fought against. The clan prejudice against "freebirths" provides some outlet, but they're a tiny fraction of society and serve the additional purpose of "proving" the superiority of "trueborn" Clanners. So the focus of the last four hundred years, give or take, of Clan political history has been the return to the Inner Sphere and the reconstruction of the Star League - with the enemy needed for their regimes provided by the Inner Sphere's defenders, and rival clans as short-term surrogates. This long-term goal is one of the major underpinnings of the Clans' doctrine of restricted warfare - and if they were to actually win, that support is gone. Victory in their war of aggression would have been the worst thing that could happen to the Clans.

Without the Inner Sphere to focus their agression, the Clans no longer have a grounding for their constant wars. Before, combat as a way of life ostensibly existed to refine the Warrior caste for its inevitable triumphant return to Holy Terra. With victory, that veneer is stripped away, and only the old reasons remain: wealth, population, resources, honor, ideology - power, in a word, both over other Clans and over a Clan's own population. After all Warrior Castes's centuries-long junta has been justified by the necessary preeminence of Warriors in reconquering the Inner Spere. The Warrior Caste has to fight in order to maintain the self-worth of its members and their preeminent place in Clan society - their victory over the Inner Sphere leaves no honorable opponents but each other.

Additionally, the mixing of Inner Sphere populations with Clan civilians will result in massive social upheaval on both sides. Revolutions are never directly caused by conditions - they're caused by the failure of conditions to match people's expectations. Clan civilians have always been raised in an ideological vaccuum, force-fed Clan ideology. Now they're going to be exposed to Inner Sphere ideas directly for the first time, and they're going to start questioning their system.

Now consider the problems of "pacifying" the inevitable resistance of the Inner Sphere to the forced implementation of Clan culture. Not only have the citizens of the Inner Sphere been summarily relegated to the status of third-class (or probably fourth-class; they're not just "freebirths," they're ungrateful, Inner Sphere "freebirths") citizens in their own culture - they're told that the raising of their children is to be taken from them, and that keeping and loving your own child is a shameful thing. Once the Clans get around to mopping up the Inner Sphere polities shattered by their sneak attack and start trying to stamp out real society, their subjects are going to explode. This will inevitably lead to "civil" war between the enslaved civilian populations and the Warrior Caste, some of whom have proven quite willing to resort to orbital bombardment to subdue rebellion. Initially, the Clans might not resort to such measures, and might even be inclined to take a more long-term approach (thought that's not going to stop people who are literally fighting for their children.) However, their patience is going to be stretched thin due to the upcoming general Clan civil war.

Without the destroyed star nations of the Inner Sphere to focus their aggression, and facing internal strife from captured civilian populations, it is inevitable that a general state of open warfare will develop among the clans, similarly to how they behaved when still in "exile" with a very important difference. This time the Clans must deal with resistance from captured Inner Sphere populations at the same time some their own civilians are asking pointed questions about "where we go from here," at the same time that other Clans are beginning to examine the spoils claimed by the invader Clans - with an eye for weak defenses. This cycle of war may start slowly, but as increased internal strife, escalating external threats, and lack of a long-term, non-Clan enemy take their toll, something's going to break - and from that point, it's a short, vicious cycle to the collapse of the Star League and the general warfare that smashed the Inner Sphere in the first place. The Clans' prohibitions on attacking infrastructure are already actually less stringent than those of the Inner Sphere (because the Clans still have their full tech base from which to rebuild,) and the Warrior Caste will become more and more vicious as the situation becomes more dire, with internal strife prompting attacks from enemy Clans and distracting Clan warriors from pacifying the internal strife. When every threat is increasingly seen as tantamount to a Trial of Annihilation, many of the more aggressive and pragmatic clans will take the position that you have to still exist to have honor. The ritualism that marks Clan warfare, Zellbrigen, will begin to erode.

One or two "moderate" Clans won't really do much for this - if they insist on attempting to mediate, they'll offend the honor code of the Clans by "interfering" in their Trials of Whatever. If they simply hang back from the general melee, they'll be viewed as a threat. Eventually, everyone will be drawn into the vicious cycle - because without the need to prepare for the Invasion of the Inner Sphere, there's not limiter on the Warrior Caste's lifestile of ritualized, avaricious conquest.

In the end, one of two things will happen: the Clans will either stop short of the abyss and avoid destroying the tech base as did the Succession Wars, or they will replicate that result by different pathways and become the "Inner Sphere surats" which their society has been raised to despise for four hundred years. In either case, Clan culture will not survive - without a unified front to stamp out Inner Sphere culture, the Clans will absorb much of the dominant cultures of their captured areas, to some degree - and the constant warfare will have eroded the Clan honor system to the point where it is equivalent to that practiced in the Draconis Combine.

If you want to destroy the Clans for good and all - let them win at Tukkayid.

#119 Aaron DeChavilier

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:42 PM

I love the clans, because every talk with my friends about game mechanics I can always say: "remember the clans in battletech?"

Clans: how not to create a new faction in any continuity that respects itself. Mary sue mentality, power-gaming wargear...

oh and clan mechs look 'realistic' and more 'military' >.>
really? in a game of giant robots in the year 3050, a game of fusion power, lasers, and FTL travel - you're going to try and tell me that clan mechs look 'realistic.'

#120 Ken Fury

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostIceSerpent, on 25 January 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:


But you do agree that posting this conveys no useful information to anybody and therefore qualifies as trolling, quiaff?

Actually, because he doesn't - "is decided by combat" and "can be vetoed by combat" are two completely different things.


Nope, I corrected someone in this thread on a thing. And suddenly people attack me for that.

How to determine who's going to be a Warrior/get's promoted = Trial of Position
If you are a suberp warrior you can bid lower and thus gain more attention
How to determine who's getting a Bloodname, well combat Trials again and if you got no sponsor = Grand Mellee (yes Combat again)
While the Khans do get elected, not being able to fight well will result in your Khanship being VERY short.

So after this summary would you still stay that the Clans get lead by the bester Combat Guys or by the best Leaders?


P.S.
Yes it's possible to cheat your way up with dirty politics but that is being looked down upon. And only works if you get no one to challenge you to a Trial of Refusal.





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