196 replies to this topic

[Kudzu]

Fresh_Meat, on 08 May 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

What will the role of scouts become? I want lights to be able to call down fire upon distant mechs both on the front line and behind, but with the extremely limited range of LRMs their target assist range is limited to the periphery of the support mechs, probably well within 1000m. Furthermore, when cyclops mounting c3 are included they will fill the targeting assist role quite well, so what is left? Limiting LRMs to 640m is not conducive to a healthy scouting role, it leaves mechs isolated, vulnerable and prohibits real combat contribution.

The main role of scouts is to find the enemy and give their forces enough time to react to the threat. Knowing where the enemy is and what their composition is is the most powerful contribution they can give. Calling down long range firepower is secondary (and even then there are still artillery and air strikes to use.).

[Lightfoot]

So long as it's balanced so LRMs and other missiles have usefulness is all that matters.

However, there is always a skill set to using missiles that allows the player to learn to use missiles better. So, hopefully, if the pilot aims the missiles with a lock-on and clear Line-of-Sight, as opposed to indirect targetting, this will produce better accuracy and tracking.

[Fresh Meat]

Well the angle of LRM approach could be adjusted to control for excessive boating from range. For example in the video the missiles hit the taget from above, I suggest that at longer range the missile begin a more horizontal approach thereby giving the target a better chance to avoid getting hit by placing more objects in the flight path. This way support mechs would be compelled not to hide.

Edited by Fresh_Meat, 08 May 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[Suskis]

can't see the reason to follow TT as they already destroyed it with hardpoints

[Strum Wealh]

Well, the Devs (as of Q&A 05) have stated that the TT long range would represent the maximum effective range, with most weapons able to travel beyond that point, but lose effectiveness.
(Devs: has that changed? )

Also, in terms of range across weapons, the LRMs (both IS and Clan, by the way) having an effective range of "only" ~640 meters isn't that bad considering:

• The effective range of a Large Laser would be ~450 meters.
  
• The effective range of an ER Large Laser would be ~570 meters.
  
• The effective range of a PPC would be ~540 meters.
  
• The effective range of an ER PPC would be ~690 meters.
  
• The effective range of an AC-2 would be ~720 meters.
  
• The effective range of an AC-5 would be ~540 meters.
  
• The effective range of an LB-X AC-10 would be ~540 meters.
  
• The effective range of an Ultra AC-5 would be ~600 meters.
  
• The effective range of a Gauss Rifle would be ~660 meters.

So, the only weapons that would normally out-range LRMs would be the lightest of ACs, the ER-PPC, and the Gauss Rifle.

And the "Extended LRMs" ("ELRMs") developed by the Federated Commonwealth in 3054, with their maximum effective range of 1140 meters...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 08 May 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

Angelicon, on 08 May 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

I'm concerned about the narrow usable range of LRMs. I'm also concerned about the fact that SRMs appear to be dumb rockets with no guidance. That is not TT canon, they are guided munitions. (this was hashed out with many links to sarna and other sources in other threads).

If they're going to take these rather short "LRM" ranges from TT, they should also use guided SRMs rather than these MW4-style unguided rockets.

"guided" is a rough term for what i saw in those vids. he unleashed both lrms on two occasions at the same jenner and never scored enough hits to bring it down. imo unguided LOS SRMs would be a better choice on a mech.

[Zylo]

Fresh_Meat, on 08 May 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Well the angle of LRM approach could be adjusted to control for excessive boating from range. For example in the video the missiles hit the taget from above, I suggest that at longer range the missile begin a more horizontal approach thereby giving the target a better chance to avoid getting hit by placing more objects in the flight path.

I suspect the missile hardpoint restrictions will limit the chances of this becoming a serious problem. I'm not sure changing the approach angle would be needed

[Fresh Meat]

Zylo, on 08 May 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

I suspect the missile hardpoint restrictions will limit the chances of this becoming a serious problem. I'm not sure changing the approach angle would be needed

Your right, I doubt boating will be an issue. I mostly wanted to suggest a way to balance out extending the range of LRMs by limiting their hit ratio at greater distances.

[Nexus Trimean]

Garth Erlam, on 08 May 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

If anyone is concerned about LRM's, consider the following - (although I beat him) I had a 1 v 1 against Russ just now; me in my custom Atlas, him in an (essentially stock) Catapult C1. Having barely grazed me with a laser, but the time I reached him my head, right and left torso, and right and left arms both had orange damage (that'd be bad.) Just with two LRM 15's, no other weapons, and a max armour Atlas. If I had been a Hunchback, it would have been much, much worse.

Consider, when you look at the ranges, that you shouldn't just be standing there, watching someone hit 180 metres, and then going "well, I'm useless now." If you are on, oh I dunno a team you jumpjet back to another hill and keep firing. Not to mention those four medium lasers are nothing to sneeze at. I honestly think even the stock Catapult C1 is one of, if not the best 'Mech in the game. Sure, it requires a hell of a pilot, but it is terrifying in the right hands, because that 180-640 is nothing but pain on the receiving end.

I think this sums it up best. Cant wait ti get into this game.

[Mike Silva]

Questioning why the weapons work the way they do in this game only leads to frustration. If we start asking the devs to make sweeping changes like doubling the LRM range then they're going to have to make other sweeping balance considerations and as much as I hate to use a slippery slope here, I do think it's reasonable, but we could end up with a bunch of weapons whose characteristics don't match what we expect.

That said I do fully support the devs making certain tweaks and adjustments to ensure proper balance, but I think asking for double or triple LRM range is a bit much.

[Lightfoot]

I see alot of missile fear here. Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Aegis Kleais]

It's normal for weapons to have a pro/con to them. Not all weapons of a type fall into each pro/con, but this basically means each type of weapon has its purpose.

BALLISTICS

• Pro: Powerful up close
  
• Pro: Low heat generation
  
• Pro: Excellent reload time
  
• Pro: Doesn't give away position
  
• Pro: Damage (at reduced rate) applied beyond set range
  
• Con: Ammo-dependent
  
• Con: Damage falloff with distance
  
• Con: Accuracy penalty with distance
  
• Con: Can take up a lot of space/tonnage

ENERGY

• Pro: Unlimited Ammo
  
• Pro: Decent damage/ton ratio
  
• Pro: Good accuracy potential
  
• Pro: Damage (at reduced rate) applied beyond set range
  
• Con: Generates a lot of heat
  
• Con: Gives away position

MISSILES

• Pro: Indirect fire capable
  
• Pro: Can lock/track targets over terrain
  
• Pro: Decent damage capabilities
  
• Con: Ammo-dependent
  
• Con: Generates moderate heat
  
• Con: Warns enemies of incoming salvos
  
• Con: Gives away position
  
• Con: Susceptible to AMS countermeasures

[Vulpesveritas]

The main thing I'd love to see... is doubling(or more) LRM maximum distance with NARC or TAG. Why? Because at 400-600m, that NARC just doesn't translate to me as long range scout secret weapon anywhere nearly as I'd like it to. NARC I can understand it not doing as much, given it's pinpoint accuracy, but the idea of TAG is to allow a weapon lock, right? If you're getting LOS lock without it, then what purpose would it have outside of uses for a commander. I would think it should be useful to your own support mechs. Plus, it wouldn't be horribly inbalancing, it would require you to work as a team in order to get such a long range lock, plus that scout is likely going to be endangering him/herself being that far out ahead of the main force.

Just my input though.

[Sporklift]

Gosh memories of killing that last group of enemy mechs in MW3 with just LRMs. I never even got within visual range.

[Ramien]

My one problem with the LRM ranges as stated is the fact that pretty much any non-missile weapon gets to keep going beyond its maximum range, albeit with attenuated damage, while missiles just blow up at their max range. I wouldn't mind seeing missile drop off occurring after 640m, so an LRM-20 shooting at 700m may only deliver 10 missiles that even have a chance of hitting the target.

[Pvt Dancer]

Lets see... I go 'Scout Mode' to be Stealth focused. I them move out and camp in a remote location off of the beaten path. Someone spots guys and I fire my LRMs indirect. I never get touched because they can't find me as I rain death and destruction down on my foes.

And you want to extend range when they showed those recycle times?

I am sorry, but I fail to really see a problem here.

[RedHorseman]

Maybe for indirect fire the range could be extended to say 900m ish. With the direct fire limited to 640. Rather than the missiles them self limit the range the targeting and acquisition systems would.

Also you could have the accuracy of the missiles decrease with range to offset the increased reach, this would be due to the missiles having less time to lock and orientate themselves to the target. At 1000m they would have plenty of time to find their target at 300m the would still be in their initial upwards flight and would have to manouvere hard to hit their target.

On a slightly different note, can mechs "designate" a target for indirect fire while running passive? If so, how?

[Morgen Black]

Pvt Dancer, on 08 May 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

And you want to extend range when they showed those recycle times?

I am sorry, but I fail to really see a problem here.

I would have to completely agree with Pvt Dancer, those recycle times were quick. Especially if you had a lance of Catapults as long range support raining LRM death down upon you as you fight off a lance of scout mechs.

[Marowi]

Looking at the pro/con chart, I just don't think missiles will have the punch to make up for their other disadvantages--which are fundamentally the same as those for ballistics (limited uses, bulkiness). I would be much more comfortable with the range limitation (which is commensurate with both TT rules and the 3040s era) if I were certain that more missiles would actually reach their target. I can only imagine that NARC/TAG use is going to be pretty much required in order to make the most out of missiles. It's a big pro that the other weapon classes don't have: the ability to modify drastically the characteristics of the weapon with other equipment. EDIT: And I like that idea quite a lot; I almost never had to use NARC or TAG in other iterations of MechWarrior, nor did plenty of other people. It was almost as if it was a waste to put them in the game.

Edited by Marowi, 08 May 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[Mike Silva]

Marowi, on 08 May 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Looking at the pro/con chart, I just don't think missiles will have the punch to make up for their other disadvantages--which are fundamentally the same as those for ballistics (limited uses, bulkiness). I would be much more comfortable with the range limitation (which is commensurate with both TT rules and the 3040s era) if I were certain that more missiles would actually reach their target. I can only imagine that NARC/TAG use is going to be pretty much required in order to make the most out of missiles. It's a big pro that the other weapon classes don't have: the ability to modify drastically the characteristics of the weapon with other equipment.

I don't know, from watching the videos posted yesterday it looks like a big advantage of LRMs is that they're still useful when direct fire weapons are impractical.