349 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Critical Fumble, on 29 November 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Way to take things out of context there.

You hurdle insults, bypass relevant points, won't admit any faults in your preference, simply cannot handle disagreements, and have done just about everything on this page: http://en.wikipedia....st_of_fallacies

In case you haven't noticed, the only reason that crap shows up, and appears to work, on TV shows is that artificial drama ups ratings. Most people adults manage to get what they want from other people by being polite and reasonable, doing the opposite tends to make matters worse for you. Don't believe me? Try antagonizing a cop or TSA agent next time you have to deal with one.

TL/DR version: Persuasive argument: yer doin' it wrong.

Yea well the very first reponse to my polite and reasonable topic was very rude and impolite and unreasonable. It upset me. I reported that poster, and the only response from moderation was to move the topic to suggestion forums. Which was probably a good move, because the general forums would have had a greater number of trolls.
As for your post -

1. I hurdle insults - back as those insulting me
2. Bypass relevant points - All my points have been bypassed. Goes both ways.
3. Wont admit faults in my preference - Thats because there arent any
4. Simply cant handle disagreements - Those disagreeing have no reason to disagree other than to simply disagree ie, they like to fight because base capping in the game doesnt let them fight, so they fight me instead.
5. Definition of fallacy - Every post disagreeing with my perception that TDM is better than base capping is exactly that, a fallacy. The definition fits them perfectly.

To sum it up, I gave reasonable comparisons and analogies to illustrate my undisputable viewpoints and ppl chose to troll me instead of trying to comprehend them... like you

Edited by Teralitha, 29 November 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[Agent of Change]

Teralitha, on 29 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

To sum it up, I gave reasonable comparisons and analogies to illustrate my undisputable viewpoints and ppl chose to troll me instead of trying to comprehend them... like you

The problem is you have failed to make any more cogent points than:

• 1. "I don't like capping"
  
• 2. "pre-mades" abuse capping
  
• 3. Make us fight a TDM until PGI 'fixes' it

To be sure you used a lot of words and some interesting phrasing to make those points, how ever you have to admit you cannot be surprised given the tone of your OP that you would be inviting the trolls to a picnic and then you kept feeding them.

You also failed to account for a number things in your argument:

• 1. Many (if not most) players here find TDM dull beyond belief.
  
• 2. Most games end up in some kind of serious fight
  
• 3. If you are not fighting in most games it's probably something you are doing not the other team
  
• 4. Having an external hard objective beyond killing the other team forces you to focus on multiple things at once creating interesting decisions.
  
• 5. it's only the first of many game modes the second of which should be out this month

Those are the hard reasons why your suggestion is being treated with a bit of disrespect now here's the soft reasons:

• 1. In canon any way to complete an engagement that limited damage to the mechs was preferable (if you give me your base i'm taking it.
  
• 2. It can be used tactically a scout drawing the enemy team back away from their own attack in order to defend
  
• 3. Any win that keeps your whole team alive to share in the victory is a Major tactical victory

Now characterizing your view points as "indisputable" and that people just failed to "comprehend them" is a bit arrogant and is just more troll bait. It is also empirically wrong as I just disputed them in a calm and logical manner. Now to be fair you have suggested some alternative but the basis of it is that this is the game mode we have and many (if not most) of us appreciate and enjoy it.

The key thing to take away from this is that your dispute is emotional and preferential, Just because you don't like a thing doesn't necessarily mean it's bad it only means you don't like it. Many of us do like it, that puts our dispute as a pure matter of preference and since PGI is planning on implementing new game modes one would assume we are keeping this one as is for now. We will have to agree to disagree.

Edited by Agent of Change, 30 November 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[Teralitha]

Agent of Change, on 30 November 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

The problem is you have failed to make any more cogent points than:

• 1. "I don't like capping"
  
• 2. "pre-mades" abuse capping
  
• 3. Make us fight a TDM until PGI 'fixes' it

To be sure you used a lot of words and some interesting phrasing to make those points, how ever you have to admit you cannot be surprised given the tone of your OP that you would be inviting the trolls to a picnic and then you kept feeding them.

You also failed to account for a number things in your argument:

• 1. Many (if not most) players here find TDM dull beyond belief.
  
• When did MWO have a TDM mode? your just speculating.
  
• 2. Most games end up in some kind of serious fight
  
• Yes, but with zero tactics involved.
  
• 3. If you are not fighting in most games it's probably something you are doing not the other team
  
• Doesnt apply to me.
  
• 4. Having an external hard objective beyond killing the other team forces you to focus on multiple things at once creating interesting decisions.
  
• No it forces you to focus on only 2 things. To baserush, or not to baserush.
  
• 5. it's only the first of many game modes the second of which should be out this month
  
• I know this, but the new game mode will have multiple capture points, which still isnt better(tactically) than TDM

Those are the hard reasons why your suggestion is being treated with a bit of disrespect now here's the soft reasons:

• 1. In canon any way to complete an engagement that limited damage to the mechs was preferable (if you give me your base i'm taking it. You are rewarded more alot more for fighting. The red square base capturing is a poor implementation of canon ideals. it needs something more than a red square to stand in.
  
• 2. It can be used tactically a scout drawing the enemy team back away from their own attack in order to defend
  
• yea... i do it alot in my own jenner. Its a stupidly easy tactic that requires little thought to execute. Boring.
  
• 3. Any win that keeps your whole team alive to share in the victory is a Major tactical victory
  
• I prefer actual combat, you get more cbill rewards for it. Simply winning by basecap yields you very little, you dont get to capture enemy mechs this way in the form of salvage. By total destruction of the enemy team, you get all your mechs back by repairing them, and repairing downed enemy mechs as well, in TT, by fighting, you could possibly double your stable of mechs if you won. So no, you arent winning a major tactical victory by not fighting. In TT, if all you capture is a empty plot of land on the whole planet you havent gained anything as the enemy mechs on planet are still there, and you still have to fight them to win the ultimate goal of taking a planet, unless they simply give it to you. That would be unrealistic to happen in every battle you face, even if it did happen on occasion.

Now characterizing your view points as "indisputable" and that people just failed to "comprehend them" is a bit arrogant and is just more troll bait. It is also empirically wrong as I just disputed them in a calm and logical manner. Now to be fair you have suggested some alternative but the basis of it is that this is the game mode we have and many (if not most) of us appreciate and enjoy it.

The key thing to take away from this is that your dispute is emotional and preferential, Just because you don't like a thing doesn't necessarily mean it's bad it only means you don't like it. Many of us do like it, that puts our dispute as a pure matter of preference and since PGI is planning on implementing new game modes one would assume we are keeping this one as is for now. We will have to agree to disagree.

I prefer TDM because its better. Many moons from now, when you have grown tired of baserush online, come talk to me, until then, we have nothing in common

[Agent of Change]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

I prefer actual combat, you get more cbill rewards for it. Simply winning by basecap yields you very little, you dont get to capture enemy mechs this way in the form of salvage. By total destruction of the enemy team, you get all your mechs back by repairing them, and repairing downed enemy mechs as well, in TT, by fighting, you could possibly double your stable of mechs if you won. So no, you arent winning a major tactical victory by not fighting. In TT, if all you capture is a empty plot of land on the whole planet you havent gained anything as the enemy mechs on planet are still there, and you still have to fight them to win the ultimate goal of taking a planet, unless they simply give it to you. That would be unrealistic to happen in every battle you face, even if it did happen on occasion.

I prefer combat too, and if some team decides to give me a quick payout so I can drop again and fidn a team that wants to fight I see that as a good thing for me. It sucks for them but they didn't scout our approach, try to delay us, defend their base etc. I am more than happy to wipe out an opposing force if I see the opportunity but my risk/reward calculation includes more than just myself. I'm not going to have my team risk more than they have to for a win, if that means a quick cap, great. If it means doubling down and grinding it out against an opponent putting up a fight, awesome, makes no difference to me either way.

Quote

I prefer TDM because its better. Many moons from now, when you have grown tired of baserush online, come talk to me, until then, we have nothing in common

You see I won't and I'll tell you why, if we have nothing in common it's probably because I like MW:O, because it's part of the game, you accept that, or you don't. I like the game mode as it is and am encouraged that they will add more different types of game modes. And your high road lament is out the window when you functionally stick your fingers in your ears when confronted with a disagreeing opinion.

[Fiachdubh]

As much as I hate it base capture is the aim of the current game mode. There will be other non base cap oriented game mode implemented later just have to wait. But damn am I sick of ******* base cap games.

And once more because so many people fail to grasp the concept: This is BETA, we only have access to a basic version of the game so far. We are testing it as they gradually introduce more game play elements. It is full of bugs after patches but that is why they have beta tests, to weed them out.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 30 November 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[OldGrayDonkey]

No to the removal of base defense. Yes to the inclusion of more strategic goals on the map.

[ICEFANG13]

Lets just bring back the poll and let the numbers decide.

[iminbagdad]

Here's my signature and my explanation.



Does that look like a valid loss to you? no.

Oh QQ guard your base and it wont happen. We did but we had a cowardly jenner who ran to our base, we chased him off, then fought the rest of our team near our base. now its a matter of guarding the base and losing because they had a sliver of our base capped, or go destroy the missile boats lobbing rounds at us and hoping the pansy jenner joins in the fight. He didnt, we lost.

Change the mechanics or move the base to the middle of the map. They said all through closed beta that the base capping was a place holder, now apparently they dont want to change it.

/signed /annoyed

[ICEFANG13]

Sounds like you were completely outplayed, you're entire team ran back to kill one Jenner on base? Definitely looks legit to me, you did well, the rest of your team did not. This isn't COD, you can't call a nuke and win even if you do really well. A simple message, "lights back to base/I have base/ closest guy back to base/everyone stay here except the person I said to move" is so helpful.

[AvatarofWhat]

iminbagdad, on 30 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Does that look like a valid loss to you?

Yes, You may have done a lot of damage but they outplayed you. There were two people left on both teams. Seems like a legit loss to me. You can't do everything by yourself, if your other teammate can't take care of the lrm boat while you guard the base or vice versa then you lost because you did not work well as a team. If your teammate was a half-r3t4rted pug then thats a completely different issue that will hopefully be resolved when they re-implement 8-man teams. Base capture is fine and it adds another element of strategy to the game. Being able to effectively deal with a light that is sent to cap and distract is part of that. Your team obviously failed in that department.

If you want a separate game mode that is TDM then fine, but I definitely won't play it. Objective based games are more fun to me. Leave Assault mode alone. On a separate note I can't wait for conquest to come out.

[iminbagdad]

Valid points but not representative of this match. We did not send everyone back to base. we stuck together better then most matches i have seen. the issue for this match rested solely on the 3 main issues this game has.

1. herding cats (pugs)
2. Lame base capping mechanic. The MECHANIC is broken, ie how base capping happens not that we have to think about objectives. I'm not interested in TDM.
3. This ridiculous BS with lights being the hardest thing to kill in the game. (unless your willing to cheese which im not)

The issue was that we had a PIECE of our base capped and we would have lost even though we were sitting on our base guarding it. We HAD to do something or time would have run out and we would have lost because a jenner ran around our base and stood there for a second before the COUPLE guys that returned to base and chased it off. Thats why i want them to fix the mechanic, they said they were going to but all they did was replace the BBQ with an oil drilling platform.

[Stalephreak]

iminbagdad, on 30 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Valid points but not representative of this match. We did not send everyone back to base. we stuck together better then most matches i have seen. the issue for this match rested solely on the 3 main issues this game has.

1. herding cats (pugs)
2. Lame base capping mechanic. The MECHANIC is broken, ie how base capping happens not that we have to think about objectives. I'm not interested in TDM.
3. This ridiculous BS with lights being the hardest thing to kill in the game. (unless your willing to cheese which im not)

The issue was that we had a PIECE of our base capped and we would have lost even though we were sitting on our base guarding it. We HAD to do something or time would have run out and we would have lost because a jenner ran around our base and stood there for a second before the COUPLE guys that returned to base and chased it off. Thats why i want them to fix the mechanic, they said they were going to but all they did was replace the BBQ with an oil drilling platform.

Actually, if you have at least one person on your base, the cap stops. So no, you weren't sitting on your base. Nice try though. That was in a patch from over a month ago.

[Stalephreak]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

I prefer TDM because its better. Many moons from now, when you have grown tired of baserush online, come talk to me, until then, we have nothing in common

That makes it an opinion then, Tera. You're stating you prefer it, but the reasons for it being "better" weren't quite there. You tried to bring up complexity, but anybody who's studied math knows that when you introduce that extra variable, things become more complex, not less. That's just calculus talking though.

I will say that if you're trying to see who can build the most beastly machines, then TDM is definently advantagous. If you're wanting a sorta-sim of what war actually entails, there must be other factors than just the players.

[ICEFANG13]

Yeah from your description, you were completely outplayed. Honest opinion here, they controlled your movements completely, and they had the same base, sitting undefended.

[Tex Arcana]

Solution: Expand game numbers to 12 units. More units = More map that is covered.
I'm not seeing the problem with Flag Cap in pug so far. I've seen a handful of side rush wins; but for the most part it's been stand-up fights.
The ultimate point of flag cap is that it is the easiest "2 option" game mode there is (Options: Kill all, or Cap).
If one is unhappy with it and yet puts forward the form of combat that gets old FASTER than Flag Cap (TDM gets boring really fast): One is not offering much in the option category.
To paraphrase a certain Vulcan, it displays one dimensional thinking.
I'm looking forward to new modes: WoT (eg.) started with Flag Cap, and has now expanded to include Encounter, and Assault modes as well. With the option to De-Select the modes you dislike...
I have great hope for the expansion of this game. And am going to stick it out to see what PGI does to improve it.
PS. Did not poll.

[Agent of Change]

Tex Arcana, on 30 November 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

PS. Did not poll.

I'm wondering about this, where did the poll go?

i would be curious if it actually supported the OP's point of view, though i suspect it did not.

[Teralitha]

Stalephreak, on 30 November 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

That makes it an opinion then, Tera. You're stating you prefer it, but the reasons for it being "better" weren't quite there. You tried to bring up complexity, but anybody who's studied math knows that when you introduce that extra variable, things become more complex, not less. That's just calculus talking though.

I will say that if you're trying to see who can build the most beastly machines, then TDM is definently advantagous. If you're wanting a sorta-sim of what war actually entails, there must be other factors than just the players.

TDM is not about who builds the biggest mechs Its about which team outplays the other, with complete freedom to do it anyway and anywhere.....you want.

Edited by Teralitha, 30 November 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

TDM is not about who builds the biggest mechs Its about which team outplays the other, with complete freedom to do it anyway and anywhere.....you want.

<picks himself off the deck from laughing himself out of his chair>

oh lord help me here, I thought Teralitha was incapable of humor or irony. Teralitha, shock of all shocks, you just advocated against your OWN OP!. TDM is EXACTLY about who has the biggest gun. If I bring a .50 cal desert eagle to a fight and you bring a 9mm and shoot me in my chest first, and I do not die because you missed something vital and I get a shot off? Guess what, if I strike you, you die. period. Biggest Gun won the fight. period. I should know, I have FIRED a .50 cal, and punched a hole in PLATE STEEL. The same plate steel that took a standard SNIPER shot to, that did nothing but scratch it. Big gun = victory, then, you state, what ever team out plays the other should win... well, shock of shocks, If I out play your team and sneak my 100 tons of atlas into your base, and you fail to see me or now, hear B Betty scream out that I am there, I just out played you. Period, and I did so, w/out a SINGLE shot fired. NEXT!

[Rejarial Galatan]

....Kills/assists = 2000
Spotting = 2000
Damage done = x10
Salvage = 2.5%
Base cap = 5000
Base cap assist = 2500....

this teralitha looks more like support for base capping to me...

[Straften]

Tickdoff Tank, on 28 November 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

What a pathetic poll, and what a rediculous post. Defend your base or suffer the consequences.

This.