119 replies to this topic

[Haitchpeasauce]

SolCrusher, on 02 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

6 SSRM2s are not OP, what will be OP is a A1 with 6 SSRM6s.

Ever tried it? Feels fantastic to alpha-strike powered down mechs and assaults in the face... but when you get cored the repair+rearm bill is staggering (running with 80% free ammo thing is not enough with this build).

Edited by Haitchpeasauce, 02 December 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[dF0X]

Codejack, on 02 December 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

I've had it with the "Streakcats are OP; there's no way that I'm just a sucky mech builder and pilot!" threads. Here's what happens:

I have 4 mech that I rotate through:

Mission 1: Guncat; 1 kill, 2 assists, wound up getting killed by a pack of Jenners, there might have been a Cicada in there, I don't know because I never got a good look at them.

Mission 2: Gaussphract; 2 kills, 2 assists, win

Mission 3: C4 Catapult, LRM-boat, 1xMLAS; 0 kills, 1 assist, killed by Jenners

Mission 4: Streakcat; 3 kills, 1 assists, win

Mission 5: Guncat; 0 kills, swarmed by lights, died early

Mission 6: Gaussphract; 0 kills, 1 assist, killed by 4-man

Mission 7: LRM-boat; 0 kills, 0 assists, swarmed by lights, died early

Mission 8: Streakcat; 1 kill, 3 assists, killed by 2 Jenners working together

Mission 9: Guncat; 0 kills, 1 assist, killed by lights

Mission 10: Gaussphract, 0 kills, 0 assists, killed by lights

Mission 11: LRM-boat; 0 kills, 0 assists, killed by concentrated LRM fire

Mission 12: Streakcat; 3 kills, 3 assists, capture win


Now, looking at the above, and understanding that I only PUG and so cannot rely on my teammates to either coordinate or to loadout weapons that will complement my load, WHY ON EARTH SHOULD I FEEL BAD ABOUT RUNNING MY STREAKCAT?!

I have 4 VERY good mechs, any of which can do quite well in its role, but only 1 of them can fight Jenners, and since half the people out there are running Jenners, it only makes sense to run the mech that can kill the most common (and powerful) enemy I am likely to run into.

My guncat can do more damage than my streakcat, if it isn't killed by lights.

My gaussphract is an awesome sniper, if I don't get swarmed by enemies that don't take damage even in the unlikely event that I appear to have hit them.

My LRM-boat can dish out some serious hurt, if it has support, because it has only very light close-range weaponry.

So, 3 radically different builds, all of which are countered by 1 unit: The Jenner. The counter to the Jenner is a streakcat; you need a heavy to kill a light, and people are complaining that the HEAVY is the overpowered unit?!

This is 100% right. The problem is the netcode. Weapon balance is pointless until the netcode is fixed.

[Wildhound]

The streak Cat is a separate issue to the Jenner.

Jenner lag shield needs to be fixed.

Streak Cats also need to be fixed.

[Sean von Steinike]

Captain Midnight, on 02 December 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

No, it won't. That's where you are wrong... Nothing counters the A1 besides being a dramatically better pilot than the A1.

271m range counters them

[Jalen]

Trauglodyte, on 02 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

I'm ok with pretty much everything you said regarding both the StreakCat and the Jenner. The issue that so many of us have with the Jenner is the fact that all of you are abusing the JJ bug (ie, 1 JJ provides all the boost and speed that you need) thus providing you with more alloted tonnage for weapons and heat sinks. Add to that the current NetCode issues that does exist for some and it gets maddening.

The JJ thing isn't a bug at this point, it's been this way since their inception. At some point, they may "fix" them so that they work differently, but this is the way jumpjets work for all mechs. And it's not a big deal to sacrifice AMS or a heatsink to add jumpjets and have the exact same build I'm using right now.

Trauglodyte, on 02 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

To all of the above, I'll add the following: TT Jenner was capped at 118.8kph; MWO Jenner is capped at 138.9kph, minus the speed tweak. That is a gain of 17% speed for reasons that I've yet to fathom. Then you're adding two additional energy mounts and an additional missile mount for one variant and yet no Jenner in the entire TT game sported more than 4 laser weapons at a time and only the C2 had more than one missile system (MML-5s). So, you're running a mech which is faster than it should be with more weapons than it should contain in a system with a slightly faulty netcode system and allowing mechs to just run right through each other with no repurcussions.

I'm definitely going into the whole "TableTop vs. video game" debate because it's been explained a million times before. This is not TableTop, some things just don't translate into a real time FPS.Why PGI took the liberties they did can only be explained to them, but if the Jenner had two less beam hardpoints, I'd simply put larger weapons in there and do two points less of damage and heat, respectively.

That said, the JR7D with four beam and two missile hardpoints and the JR7F with six beam hardpoints is hardly an overpowered layout. I personally use the D, but I don't use the missile hardpoints at all. I'd rather have four more tons of heatsinks, or BAP, or ECM (if available) than two SSRM2s. So no, I'm not running more weapons than it should be, nor am I running faster than it should be. Perhaps according to a completely different gaming platform that has completely different circumstances for its figures, but not according to MWO. I've found that Jenners who run four beams and two missiles end up sacrificing too much somewhere else in their build and end up being at a disadvantage to me in a one-on-one scenario anyway. Their only advantage is a little more punch and I can usually neutralize them before that would be an issue for me.

Trauglodyte, on 02 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Now, the above problem isn't specific to the Jenner. Its just that the Jenner represents the absolute worst case scenario of bugs and abuses. Other mechs are nearly as bad but everyone hates the Jenner because the rest of the mechs that do the same thing are at least 3x as big and about 2/3 as fast (if that).

I don't agree with this at all. The Jenner is simply the best light chassis out there. If we had 10 different light mechs, the Jenner would be a compromise in one area or another. Since we have only three and the other two pale in comparison, you see more Jenners, which means you see more abuses. The other light mechs can be lagshielded too; there are few things more annoying than a teleporting, lagshielded Commando with 3 SSRM2s.

Trauglodyte, on 02 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

The crappiest thing in this game, and I absolutely love playing MWO btw, is that Streaks are the best way to currently counter the problem but not having Streaks makes you a liability. Streaks are the easiest system to use and you never have to re-aim at any point unless your target dies or you and everyone on your teams loses sight of the target.

I completely disagree here. Streaks are harder to use than LRMs, mainly because at LRM range, it's easier to keep your reticle on the moving target. At close range, especially in the upper range of speeds, while maneuvering to avoid incoming fire, it is -not- the easiest thing in the game to keep Streaks on a target. The Raven I run goes 128kph and has two SSRM2 launchers (although I prefer 2 SRM6s in it), and it's not easy to keep Streaks on a fast target in the middle of a big furball.

BOOMLegShot, on 02 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Jenners are so good there's hardly any real reason to run any other mech in the 20-60 ton range. Their speed cap and number of hardpoints are just too high. Commandos are just lighter armed and armored Jenners who can't jump (their speed advantage is negligable). Most medium mechs are slightly better armed but 10x more vulnerable so increased armor doesn't mean much. You have to get to Catapults or heavier before the increased weapons and armor make up for the decreased speed.

Everything is a compromise. I can only come up with one reason to run a Commando: It's the only light with 3 missile hardpoints. As a mini-Streakboat in the hands of a good light pilot, these are a very viable build. I love running the Raven, but it is definitely a different and more challenging mech than running a Jenner. The Raven has ballistic hardpoints, which the Jenner does not. If you want to run ballistics in a light, you cannot run a Jenner, period.

As for medium mechs, again I disagree because again it's a compromise. Mediums can mount larger weapons like AC10s, AC20s and Gauss Rifles without completely sacrificing their integrity, which is something lights cannot do. Mediums can absorb more firepower, although not by a huge margin. Mediums can still go pretty fast for their size, which compromises their durability, but again the key word there is compromise. I don't like running mediums because I'm not enamored by the draw of bigger, heavier weapons. I'd rather shoot smaller weapons more often. I also do not like all of my "eggs in one basket", which is the case with Hunchbacks and Centurions and their primary weapon locations, which are one massive target for everyone to blow away and render me useless.

Everything I've seen complaining about Jenners and their hardpoints are obviously by people who do not run these mechs. In order for a JR7D to take full advantage of all of those hardpoints they have to sacrifice something. The best build would be four medium lasers and two SSRM or SRMs, two tons of ammo and a 300XL engine. In order to run all of that, you either have to sacrifice speed (the primary advantage of Jenners), firepower/range (by going to small lasers instead of mediums, which only nets you two tons), heat, or armor (the primary weakness of Jenners). You also cannot have both Ferro-Fibrous armor and Endo-Steel because there's not enough slots for all of the weapons, heatsinks and ammo necessary to truly take fully advantage of the best build.

[Captain Midnight]

I never had a hard time making 300XL, Endo/DHS, 4xML, 2xSSRM2 fit on my Jenner D, and that's the perfect build.

[Jalen]

BOOMLegShot, on 02 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

A hearty "huh?" to the guy who says Streakpults are easily countered by staying more than 300m away.

The best you can do is hang back in the 300s with a fast light mech doing marginal reduced damage with medium lasers. If the Steakpult forces you to do for the battle then he's already kind of neutralized you as a threat.

First of all, you try and outsmart the StreakCat by not letting it notice you, or giving it better targets of opportunity than you. Second, you don't have to sit at EXACTLY 300 meters away and let it close the distance quickly. Third, medium lasers have a max range of 540 meters before they start losing effectiveness. And finally fourth, if a StreakCat is going to force me into a one-on-one battle, he's the threat being neutralized. It's like a Chess game: I'm the Knight and he's a Rook. If he's going to put blinders on and just try and focus on me, that neutralizes him and that's a huge loss to his team. Meanwhile him forcing me to focus on what he's doing, staying out of his range and removing me from the battle, he's only taking one little light mech away from the battle. My team easily gains the advantage by removing him from the battle and his team gains very little from removing me. I'm totally cool with that.

BOOMLegShot, on 02 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Streakpults have the extra space for an engine that let's them go 75km/h easy. So you have to be in a mech going fast enough to stay away with enough 300+m firepower. Which mech can do that?

Every single mech that goes faster than 75k, that's which mech can do that. Pretty tough to figure out, wasn't it? Whew!

My slowest light does 128kph, easily staying outside the range of a StreakCat as long as I remain aware of the range and closure rate. It's easy to get wrapped up in a fight and lose that awareness, and if that happens it's nobody's fault but my own. But if I know there's a StreakCat out there and it knows I'm there, my primary goal is to stay outside of that mech's range and draw them towards a disadvantage, either by pulling it towards teammates with more range and more firepower than me, or by pulling it out of the fight altogether as it stupidly chases me across the map and neutralizes itself in the battle. Again, I'm cool with that, and I'm even cool with letting it eventually kill me several kilometers away from the main battle if it means my team will have the advantage and win the map. Also, they're not immune to LRMs, so the whole time he's chasing me around, he's not hiding behind terrain to avoid the LRM rain.

BOOMLegShot, on 02 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

What decent weapons are you going to use for that range? A large laser boat? Auto cannons trying to hit with two circling 80km/h mechs?

I guess that depends on your definition of "decent" weapons, doesn't it? I know people who believe that anything less than a Gauss Rifle isn't a decent weapon. I personally find medium lasers to be decent weapons. I've killed many StreakCats in my Jenners, but less of them in my Ravens because my Ravens have a much shorter range. I have to be within a StreakCat's kill zone to kill it with my Raven, but it can be done if they're already damaged. This is where tactics and situational awareness comes into play. If I'm not it's primary target, I can do a whole lot of damage while he considers something else a threat. If I can chew an ear off he's suddenly half the threat he was before. If he had core damage, I could possibly get the kill without taking a single Streak in return. If I cannot kill him before he changes his focus onto me, I'm still doing enough damage to him that I'll be the last kill he makes that match. If I'm the StreakCat's primary target all along, I just have to stay out of range and bait him into a position where my teammates can make effective use of their larger and longer ranged weaponry.

If I let a StreakCat draw me into an area where I have no terrain to use to my advantage or forces me to move within it's range to escape then he's already won the tactical battle against me. Just yesterday I was on Caustic in my Raven and was supporting another Raven and Cicada. The Raven called out a StreakCat and I checked his position... well outside of range even though it was engaging us. I changed my positioning to keep myself on the edge of his range with an escape route handy when a second StreakCat emerged from behind terrain and closed to less than 250m. I was at the edge of the map, forced to either engage the StreakCat or run out of bounds. Bad situational awareness on my part allowed this to happen, I had no idea there was a second StreakCat (and apparently neither did my lancemates) and I only took out a Commando and heavily damaged a Jenner before he wiped me out. Not a good trade-off. The two StreakCats then regrouped and finished off our genius PUGs, which wasn't hard for them at all.

All of this comes down to what I said in my original post. Yes, StreakCats are powerful but they have disadvantages. Use those disadvantages against them. I'm not saying it's easy. If it was easy, then StreakCats wouldn't be powerful, would they? But simple situational awareness will keep them from using their advantages against you. Most StreakCats are piloted by bad pilots, because bad pilots can do well in them. Use that to your advantage. If you see a StreakCat piloted by a good pilot, you're going to have to raise your game to match or die to them.

The best StreakCat pilots aren't just boating Streaks though. They'll run at least one LRM launcher or use the C4 chassis and use a beam hardpoint or two so they can pick at you when you stay outside of Streak range. These are pilots who recognize their build's disadvantages and compensate, even if it means losing a Streak launcher or two to do it. It's a game of compromises.

[Jalen]

Captain Midnight, on 03 December 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

I never had a hard time making 300XL, Endo/DHS, 4xML, 2xSSRM2 fit on my Jenner D, and that's the perfect build.

I didn't say it was impossible, just that it was a compromise. And it is:

You do not have full armor, do not have enough heat sinks to continuously fire without cycling or shutdowns (especially on Caustic Valley), do not have AMS, and do not have more than two tons of ammo for the SSRMs. You are compromising durability, are vulnerable to LRM fire, do not dissipate enough heat, and do not carry extra SSRM ammo for longer matches.

It's still a great build and you're probably pretty good with it, but you've still made your compromises. In my build, I lose the SSRM2 and gain five tons for AMS, armor and heatsinks. That's my compromise. Your advantage is more firepower, my advantage is better heat management and AMS. For me and my style, and working within our team structure, my build offers me more advantages than an extra pair of Streaks would. For you and your style, maybe those Streaks work better. That's great, but when I'm in a match and I see a Jenner with your build, I feel confident that I have the advantage in a one-on-one fight.

Unless the other pilot is a better pilot than me, but in that case it really wouldn't matter if he had those Streaks or not, would it?

Edited by Jalen, 03 December 2012 - 04:44 AM.

[Codejack]

Jalen, on 03 December 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

The best StreakCat pilots aren't just boating Streaks though. They'll run at least one LRM launcher or use the C4 chassis and use a beam hardpoint or two so they can pick at you when you stay outside of Streak range. These are pilots who recognize their build's disadvantages and compensate, even if it means losing a Streak launcher or two to do it. It's a game of compromises.

Heh, yea, but if you think Jenner pilots are raising hell over A1s with 6xSSRM2, you should hear the screams when they run and stop at 300m, turn around to shoot me, and find out that I only have 5xSSRM2, because the other hardpoint has an LRM20

[Pando]

Hey,

Once these things happen - Fix Net-code, re-implement collision / knock-downs when light mechs run into anything heavier.

This will happen - Jenner pilots will be less-inclined to zip around you. Jenner pilots will become easy kills when they are bad at the game. Jenner pilots will go back to piloting Atlas.

Truth?

[Trauglodyte]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Jalen. I think that the Jenner has a lot going for it right now, probably too much. Some of that will go away when knockdowns are reintroduced and when, or if, JJs ever get fixed. ECM will definitely help too. And yes, LRMs are easier to use than Streaks but its the system that I find wonky - being able to target a short range missile system through LOS is just odd. And they're adding in four additional hit locations so that'll help as well.

But hey, its Beta - everything is still being tested.

[Codejack]

Trauglodyte, on 03 December 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Jalen. I think that the Jenner has a lot going for it right now, probably too much. Some of that will go away when knockdowns are reintroduced and when, or if, JJs ever get fixed. ECM will definitely help too. And yes, LRMs are easier to use than Streaks but its the system that I find wonky - being able to target a short range missile system through LOS is just odd. And they're adding in four additional hit locations so that'll help as well.

But hey, its Beta - everything is still being tested.

But this is not new; this is the same system that was being used in MW2/Netmech almost 20 years ago. People didn't use missile boats back then because lag wasn't an issue, usually, and other weapons are better.

I guess my problem is that everyone is whinging about a heavy being able to kill a light; as if that were unexpected! Lights have such an advantage right now that it takes twice as much mech sacrificing range, direct fire, and flexibility to counter, which makes it really strange that people would claim that the larger mech is the one that is overpowered.

To re-reiterate (?): I would not play my streakcat if the lag were not so bad that I had even a reasonable chance of hitting a circling Jenner with any other kind of weapon. I haven't even bothered to work out a replacement loadout for my K2 since UACs got the nerfbat up the ***.

[Trauglodyte]

My problem is less about the Cat and more about the entire Streak system. With the way the game is currently coded, chances are good that you're going to either miss a fast mech entirely with a projectile weapon or that you'll only get in a percentage of your total laser damage. So yeah, Streaks make it a guarantee that you're going to hit and pretty much guaranteed that you'll never lose your lock.

Do I hate the 6 Streak A1 boat? Hell yes. Do I hate the LRM/Streak mixed A1? Not really. Its annoying but it isn't any different than a C1 or C4 with LRMs and Med Lasers. Its just that Streaks add that tech lvl 2 pain in the assedness (new word, you can use it if you want) that old tech lasers don't have.

[Icebound]

Streakcats are OP, to claim otherwise you must be trolling.

[Codejack]

Icebound, on 03 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Streakcats are OP, to claim otherwise you must be trolling.

So, you're claiming that the fact that we have to specially loadout a 65-ton mech just so that we can kill a 35-ton mech is unfair TO THE 35-TON MECH?!

You must be meta-trolling.

[Icebound]

Codejack, on 03 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

So, you're claiming that the fact that we have to specially loadout a 65-ton mech just so that we can kill a 35-ton mech is unfair TO THE 35-TON MECH?!

You must be meta-trolling.

[Codejack]

Icebound, on 03 December 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

<stupid picture>

[Strig]

Icebound, on 03 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Streakcats are OP, to claim otherwise you must be trolling.

Not true at all. In any of my Assault or Brawler Heavy builds I don't fear a Streakapult, I am much more nervous about AC20/Gauss Cats or SRM6 A1s .... in my mediums I am nervous about everything. In my Jenners I ONLY worry about streaks ...
By that logic I would say the Jenner is far more potent.

StreakCats can be easily crippled (shoot of an ear and it might as well be a fat, slow commando), have extremely limited range, have to obtain and maintain lock to fire at all, lose missiles to AMS will suffer against ECM and will soon see a slew of SSRM nerfs impacting them.

Fact is, the way streaks work they are very strong (and expensive and hot and heavy for their missiles per salvo, all part of the tradeoff) but they are really not exceptional ... except against lights who are fragile and hard to hit with other weapons (sometimes borderline impossible due to their speed and the netcode).

I have mastered 3 Catapults (The C1, A1 and K2) and I will tell you that the Streakapult is not "eacy mode" ... I have to run and jump and dodge and twist like a maniac against anything other than a solo light ... if you are upset because there is a mech out there that actually kills you quick, try playing in a medium against the AC20 Cat ...

As to the original poster's "data" it is, at best a snapshot of your experience with these mechs and totally inconclusive; perhaps you just can't aim ? I can only say that when I play any of my Cats I usually do really well ... but I don't do LRM builds (on these mechs) and if I get swarmed I die.

Edited by Strig, 03 December 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Codejack]

Strig, on 03 December 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

As to the original poster's "data" it is, at best a snapshot of your experience with these mechs and totally inconclusive; perhaps you just can't aim ? I can only say that when I play any of my Cats I usually do really well ... but I don't do LRM builds (on these mechs) and if I get swarmed I die.

Pretty much, although the problem isn't that I can't aim, but that my lag is really bad for some reason (ping ~90-100ms).

That being said, my overall win rate is over 50%, and I only PUG. Make of that what you will.

[Asakara]

Lefty Lucy, on 02 December 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I'm not, I just think that the OP's numbers are not good evidence that the streak cat is balanced.

Where I just think the OP hates jenners:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1528730

Codejack, on 01 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Yea, let's see here: We're using SSRMs because we can't hit Jenners with direct-fire weapons because of the screwed up netcode, and now they're buffing Jenners so that SSRMs can't hit them, but that's OK because we can counter it by using TAG which is like hitting them with a direct-fire weapon, only harder....

How again are they buffing Jenners next patch OP?

By the way, I am looking forward to your "nerf ravens and commandos" thread later this week.