2028 replies to this topic

[JudgeDeathCZ]

The one makes me rly angry...why they try to REBALANCE one thing again when they did it already in previous MW tittles(MW3,4 and MW:LL)There was streaks and especially LRMs even more annoying and dangerous than in MWO...and they nerfed them to the ground(with TAG/premade) or even lower when you play pug and want to use them.

[_Speirs]

Invisibleone, on 06 December 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

ECM is good, but why they put it on streak commando?

Because then I can hunt ECM Ravens and Cicadas (counter)

ECM is very good piece of equipment. I use it and it is used against me often.
ECM caused that many tactical possibilities opened.


P.S.
I play from Europe - Pings dont change significantly.

Edited by Yahoo, 06 December 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[Blood78]

ECM needs to be adjusted a bit. It adds great dimensions to strategic level but it also adds to it being overly powerful. It affects the current game in following manners...

Gameplay
- Missiles are greatly limited. If your mech doesn't have ECM, you carry SRM. IDFs are rare on field now.
- Many times matchs now turn into free for all brawl when ECMs jam everyone so no one can really see where who is fighting
- Or, one of the team doing a short cut rush to cap base using ECM to sneak in
- Jenners are rare. Many lights are now ECM streakmando or ECM streakraven which are now much more effective light killer and new king of lights. Where as jenner D with 2 streaks was light king before.


8 man premade.
- Gotta bring 2-3 ECM. If you don't, your team will likely loose due to ECM requiring 1:1 ratio to counter.
- With lag shield, small hitbox, and ECM...pair of ECM lights can really screw your team up. Hence every team now brings 2-3 ECM. Usually 2 to counter enemies ECM and 1 one to shield the main force.


I'm going to say that when my merc unit talks about doing 8 man drop. First thing we say is do we have at least 2, preferably 3 who own and don't mind piloting non-assault mech with ECM? If we don't, we don't bother forming up.

If there were streakcat, jenner pack goons before. Now you have ECM light goons mainly raven/commando running in group of 2-4 with Streaks and horribly hunt down people in PUG matches.

Jenner as light are now pretty much at bottom of totem pole because it can't equip ECM (and it shouldn't because it'd be more OP). However Jenner has no counter to ECM and streaks often decide the fight on light vs light match...hence not many jenners on field anymore. Lights with ECM and streak even though they hvae no skill can kill any other light without ECM so easily because of streaks.


Suggestions
- Remove or lower ECM counterjam ratio. 1 ECM counterjamming is enough to neutralize all ECM in the area or increase ratio to say 1:2 or 1:3
- When ECM is in disruption mode, it stops all streaks from locking on...including friendly.

Edited by Blood78, 08 December 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[Gramrock]

ECM is great but think about this: isn't it a little bit too strong considering that a single item which doesn't require any masters or stuff like that has such a HUGE impact on the game ?

I would rather like to see weaker ECM which then inreases its erffectiveness by the amound of other ECM's tang next to each other.

E.g.
ECM reduces values by 7,5% not 25% but it can go up to 30% if u have an ECM setup which plays right and positions correctly.


right now it feels like u just equip an item and u really have such a HUGE advantage...

[sp1ce weezl]

Invisibleone, on 06 December 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

ECM is good, but why they put it on streak commando?

My guess is, the commando was not a preferably light mech in the beginning without ECM being inferior to a jenner for example.

While i read some posts about how a 3 streak commando with ecm is sooo OP, I would like to state, its a 25 ton mech, and I can't see a build in which there are 3 Streaks, one med laser (which u absolutely need) and enough ammo to run these 3 streaks for more than 1 minute and ECM that doesn’t lack speed (deadly for a light mech in any situation) or armor (even more so).

So post a reasonable ecm build for a commando with 3 streaks and enough ammo or gt**.

As far as I was tinkering with the commando 2D, beside the ecm I can only cram up 2 streaks with enough ammo in there and one med laser.

Now if u still want to cry out OP, let me state this to u.

The Commando 2D with streaks has the tactical issue in there (and I really like how it is implemented), that deals with the ecm.

Keep in mind that it is a very squishy little light mech taken out by one streak-cat salvo in most cases.

Sure you are safe under your ecm bubble against streaks and lrm but, if you are facing other ecm mechs or a group guarded by ecm, you’re not safe at all. So this gives a new level of strategy to this little fella, as the pilot needs to know when to keep up the bubble (and in most times being unable to fire those streaks) and when to counter an enemy ecm (dropping your own guard and being prone to be fired upon by lrm's and streaks) to make use of those streaks.
And also keep in mind, the mech config im talking about has a damage value of 15, alright.

Whith any other commando build its much more OP to be able to equip an ECM, because you can load 2 med laser on it and dont have to think about your tactic. So you just stay under your ECM-bubble and fire those lasers while circling your enemy, perhaps go with some srm's as well and you dont have to adjust your ecm to any situation.

My assumption is that most people who complain now about ecm are not used to play in a coordinated group and tend to go alone trying to be the ultimate killing machine. That won't work so well anymore with most builds, and im glad that ecm changed that. So stick together and watch out for your teammates.

Little mentioned around here, did you noticed how the ecm cloak brought up the necessity of using heat vision more often?

I definitely like that about ecm!

Edited by sp1ce weezl, 07 December 2012 - 12:19 AM.

[sp1ce weezl]

Blood78, on 06 December 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

ECM needs to be adjusted a bit. It adds great dimensions to strategic level but it also adds to it being overly powerful. It affects the current game in following manners...

...

Anyone who thought that it might even be intendet that ecm realy affect the game and that it is not just a gimmic you might as well ignore?

[Hoshi Toranaga]

ECM is way overpowered.
In 8 mans you see up to 8 mechs with ECM. It is an ECM only battle currently.

PGI is stating to be true to TT wherever they can and many of the bad decisions came from there (PPCs min range), but with ECM they do something that is entirely not TT and not even canon... why is totally beyond me.
Bring ECM back to the level it was in TT and start balancing from there.

[Nemesiz416]

I read the first 25-30 pages of comments so I'm not sure if anyone has proposed this as a solution, so I apologize if this has been discussed. How about this as a solution: Heat. Keep all the current settings for ECM, but make it so it has to be toggled on and off. When it's on, it bumps your heat bar say up to 70 or 80 percent regardless of how many heatsinks you have. That way you can't have your cake and eat it too. You get all the cool benefits of ECM, but you can't have free reign to keep shooting at whoever you please because they have weapons that can't lock on. You can do some damage, but you have to keep an eye on your heat bar or else risk shutting down along with your ECM bubble protecting you from streaks. If Ravens, Commandos, and Cicadas want to flank around and cap, they do so at their own risk. That means that Atlases can also benefit your group by providing protective cover, but can no longer be an effective missile boat, with no threat of counter LRM fire, because of heat. You can of course turn off ECM and your heat starts dissipating normally again, so you can use your weapons to full effect. Ideas?

[Mordin Ashe]

sp1ce weezl, on 06 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

I am a EU player and dont have any props with hitting my designated target.
That said, I must admit I am playing one of those pesky speedy little light mechs, but I think the balance of ECM is out there, people just need to get their used gameplay adjusted to it, instead of whining around. I understand that people will be ****ed off by the way I put it, but I'm fairly p***ed off as well by those who complain about a new game mechanic the moment it gets implemented into a game.
To be fair, people were complaining befor it got implemented, directly after it, and some already think they can project the impact of it for the future.
Guys, I'm interested in a competitive and balanced gameplay as well. Nobody whants the game to be broken. But for gods sake please be more patient, I'm confident if it turns out that there are issues with this and the data backs that up, it will be fixed. Its a beta.

Lucky you, but given how many players use some weapons only to make sure where is the enemy actually standing means your opinion isn't particularly valid. Netcode issues can be handled, high latency can be handled as well, but put together with huge lag when firing missiles and ballistics (the most popular weapons, check the poll) is a murderous combination.

Also, your crying about people not being patient, they are patient. But introducing OP and gamebreaking feature has nothing to do with patience, and the sooner it is discovered as such the better for us all.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 07 December 2012 - 01:53 AM.

[sp1ce weezl]

@ Alex Steiner Davion:

I like the idea, though I think I read something like this around here.... doesn't matter.

In my opinion its still too early to start nerfing the ecm.
I can adjust my playstile and strategy to it but I dont whant to do it every week or so as a casual gamer thats realy getting anoying.
Next update is planed around 18. Dec. I think. So there is about 10 more days in which we should try to play with the new game mechanic a little and have some constancy in the game.

Edited by sp1ce weezl, 07 December 2012 - 02:19 AM.

[sp1ce weezl]

Mordin Ashe, on 07 December 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

Lucky you, but given how many players use some weapons only to make sure where is the enemy actually standing means your opinion isn't particularly valid. Netcode issues can be handled, high latency can be handled as well, but put together with huge lag when firing missiles and ballistics (the most popular weapons, check the poll) is a murderous combination.

Also, your crying about people not being patient, they are patient. But introducing OP and gamebreaking feature has nothing to do with patience, and the sooner it is discovered as such the better for us all.

One issue is the netcode, I agree and it need to be adressed but if you want to balance everything regardin that problem, you better start changing the game into turnbased mmo (thats willingly exaggerated).

About that patience thing. As I already stated "people were complaining befor it got implemented and directly after it", what more to say about that that? Its just to early imo to nerf it.

Edited by sp1ce weezl, 07 December 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[o0cipher0o]

I've played like 20 matches since the ECM has been implemented, all as a PUG, and I think that the MM should make teams with the same number of ECMs, or, at least, if one team have 1 or more ECMs, the other must have at least one.

Alex Steiner Davion, on 07 December 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

I read the first 25-30 pages of comments so I'm not sure if anyone has proposed this as a solution, so I apologize if this has been discussed. How about this as a solution: Heat. Keep all the current settings for ECM, but make it so it has to be toggled on and off. When it's on, it bumps your heat bar say up to 70 or 80 percent regardless of how many heatsinks you have. That way you can't have your cake and eat it too. You get all the cool benefits of ECM, but you can't have free reign to keep shooting at whoever you please because they have weapons that can't lock on. You can do some damage, but you have to keep an eye on your heat bar or else risk shutting down along with your ECM bubble protecting you from streaks. If Ravens, Commandos, and Cicadas want to flank around and cap, they do so at their own risk. That means that Atlases can also benefit your group by providing protective cover, but can no longer be an effective missile boat, with no threat of counter LRM fire, because of heat. You can of course turn off ECM and your heat starts dissipating normally again, so you can use your weapons to full effect. Ideas?

this could be a good idea, but 70% heat is too much, maybe 40-50% would be enough.

[sp1ce weezl]

o0cipher0o, on 07 December 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

I've played like 20 matches since the ECM has been implemented, all as a PUG, and I think that the MM should make teams with the same number of ECMs, or, at least, if one team have 1 or more ECMs, the other must have at least one.




this could be a good idea, but 70% heat is too much, maybe 40-50% would be enough.

+1

[Not a Number]

I'm seeing a number of people suggest that NARC should be turned into a hard counter to ECM. While this would make the current NARC more useful, I really dislike that idea because according to the canon ECM is actually a counter to NARC and other EW equipment. We'd be turning the world upside down. NARC should be made more useful with something like a big duration increase with ECM as a possible counter to its effects.

The best way to balance ECM would be through a direct nerf because it is just too powerful right now. ECM would still be a perfectly viable piece of equipment as pure counter, without the decrease in detection range. Which is also not canon.

I don't mind ECM being more potent than the tabletop version to spice up the game a bit, but the current implementation is simply lightyears above it. That's too much.

[Herrmann van Hinden]

Suggestion: After some more fights with ECM and having ECM becoming a big factor in the game there is a Need to fix it But not in a way that changes ECM, because ist working quite well. One way to break ECM will be TAG in the future, when ist range is raised to 750 Meters. However, a TAGed Mech should stay TAGed as Long as there is LOS within 750m to the Mech who used TAG and the TAG Laser is not fired again... then the Target should Switch to the new Target, if thereis one.... And there should be a way to manually Lock a Target within, lets say 500 Meters, by simply zoom onto the Mech and press a key to select whats visible. After a roll against the ECM System the Target should be locked. If you have a module for zooming you have an Advantage, of course... something like that. This would be totally in line with the BT lore, because they quite often manually locked on Targets. If you dont have a LOS or a new ECM-Source passes by, you will loose the lock and start from scratch, but that might be a good way to get supporter back into the game and to do something against the "must have" that ECM is right now..... However, I still like it the way it is right now.....

[Kraita]

I'm fine with ECM apart from the blanket cloak effect. I think it should be switched so it only works locally on that mech all the time but if you want to use it to blanket cover other mechs there needs to be a penalty to using it. Such as it doesn't work at high speeds on the scouts or it disable your radar so you have to rely on team mates to feed you information some kind of trade off.

Everything else has trade off's be it heat, weight, cost or ammo why doesn't this item?

[Tikkamasala]

Mordin Ashe, on 07 December 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

Lucky you, but given how many players use some weapons only to make sure where is the enemy actually standing means your opinion isn't particularly valid. Netcode issues can be handled, high latency can be handled as well, but put together with huge lag when firing missiles and ballistics (the most popular weapons, check the poll) is a murderous combination.

Also, your crying about people not being patient, they are patient. But introducing OP and gamebreaking feature has nothing to do with patience, and the sooner it is discovered as such the better for us all.

The new feature is hardly OP and not at all game breaking. It is however game changing. Adjust!

As to the inability to use all the different weapon types as an EU player, i seem to be able to hit everyone just fine (i do have to lead or spray all over small and fast targets though) even with higher ping from the EU as well.

[Jiiri]

Not a Number, on 07 December 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

I'm seeing a number of people suggest that NARC should be turned into a hard counter to ECM. While this would make the current NARC more useful, I really dislike that idea because according to the canon ECM is actually a counter to NARC and other EW equipment. We'd be turning the world upside down. NARC should be made more useful with something like a big duration increase with ECM as a possible counter to its effects.

The best way to balance ECM would be through a direct nerf because it is just too powerful right now. ECM would still be a perfectly viable piece of equipment as pure counter, without the decrease in detection range. Which is also not canon.

I don't mind ECM being more potent than the tabletop version to spice up the game a bit, but the current implementation is simply lightyears above it. That's too much.

In my opinion, MWO should feel like BATTLETECH. Not like a FPS shooter, nor just another Hawken. Players should all have fun tegether, and the versatility of the game makes it interesting.

Whenever something isn't balanced right, if there is a loophole, the sheer mass of players will find out and abuse it, that's a sad effect in computer games - get the most bang out of a thing.

With the implementation of ECM, the effect is, that it is so overpowered, it's effect is so good without drawbacks, that you feel it is a must have. Compare it to missiles, streaks, PPC, AC or therelike : every system has a drawback : needs ammo, has minimum range, needs lock on time, can be avoided by going into cover, weighs a lot, has a short maximum range etc. All these weapons were good, maybe one being better (in a certain situation) than another, BUT:

None of these weapons were a must have, none has ever extinguished the other systems, making them worthless.

And even further: you may have seen a bit more Streakcats around, but there were still Hunchbacks, Centurions and thelike on the battlefield.


ECM is different. It changed the game into: whoever has more ECM has a large advantage to the game. In 8vs8, the game is simply not playable for a vast majority of the players: yesterday we had it, that we dared trying 8vs8 again: but most of the players who were there yesterday had just Hunchbacks or thelike, they simply didn't own an Atlas DC. It was devestating... after 10 games and lots of 5-7 Atlas DC we broke up.

Even in PUG games this effect is visible, though not as extreme as in 8vs8 (my assumption is, that there are less Atlas DC as they play 8vs8, and whoever hasn't got an ECM Mech "flees" into 4vs4, so the number of players searching for "normal games" are higher here).

I also don't agree in buffing NARC or BAP or TAG. Why ? Sure some systems could use a boost for sure ! But I don't like to have an avalanche of "MUST HAVE" - so in order to win against ECM, you need to have 4 NARC and BAP equipped then ? This isn't the right way !

The best balance would be: every weapon and every Mech chassis is valid. Each has pros and cons, but all in all, they are all good and fun. No system should be a must have, no system should be a Must-have-counter, no system should render another system(or weapon or Mech chassis) utterly worthless (ECM vs LRM and streak now).

Don't argue with real life ECM effects - look at the Tabletop version and what ECM did. It wasn't overpowered there, you haven't seen an ECM in every Mech in the TT.

ECM should: counter BAP, Artemis, NARC. Blurr the screen, hide the minimap and tactical map. Hide a Mechs config when being targetted. Increase Missle lock time. counter C3 when being implemented.

ECM shouldn't : reduce the range being targettable. It shouldn't hinder getting missle locks (see above, longer time needed).


Right now I sadly have to admit, that I too jumped on the train and play an Atlas-DC. It is easy to play, it is fun for me to play and win the majority of games, and there is a new technic: go in and brawl. But I guess it is no fun for my enemies, and everyone who defends ECM just wants this easy-game-mode, sadly. I really hope PGI will watch the mech distribution, watch the video counterplay in this thread, watch the rulebook for ECM up, and don't make the mistake to make another system like TAG the "MUST HAVE" counter, or the vicious circle will start over again.

[Herrmann van Hinden]

Oh, not to Forget that it might be an Option that Artemis IV equiped Rockets may be fired without Lock, just like an LBX or SRM..... That would be a very quick Workaround... Indirect fire with lock, direct fire without.....

[sp1ce weezl]

Kraita, on 07 December 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

...
Everything else has trade off's be it heat, weight, cost or ammo why doesn't this item?

Didnt noticed that ECM has no weight or slot ... thats pretty decent for my commando I guess, where 1,5 tonns and 2 slots would realy mean something.