2028 replies to this topic

[Stingz]

Herrmann van Hinden, on 07 December 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Oh, not to Forget that it might be an Option that Artemis IV equiped Rockets may be fired without Lock, just like an LBX or SRM..... That would be a very quick Workaround... Indirect fire with lock, direct fire without.....

LRMs already do that, it's the low speed of the missiles that makes it useless.

[AlexWildeagle]

ECM is just right!
I don't use ECM and move at a speed they keeps me out of it usually so I still see missiles come my way.

But the fact is those idiotic missile rainbows are almost all gone. The easy mode mechs need to be rethought by their builders and things are swinging back to the battletect battlefield.

Thank you PGI! You rock. Now if you'd just fix bugs as well.

[DTheSleepless]

sp1ce weezl, on 07 December 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

My guess is, the commando was not a preferably light mech in the beginning without ECM being inferior to a jenner for example.

While i read some posts about how a 3 streak commando with ecm is sooo OP, I would like to state, its a 25 ton mech, and I can't see a build in which there are 3 Streaks, one med laser (which u absolutely need) and enough ammo to run these 3 streaks for more than 1 minute and ECM that doesn’t lack speed (deadly for a light mech in any situation) or armor (even more so).

So post a reasonable ecm build for a commando with 3 streaks and enough ammo or gt**.

As far as I was tinkering with the commando 2D, beside the ecm I can only cram up 2 streaks with enough ammo in there and one med laser.

Now if u still want to cry out OP, let me state this to u.

The Commando 2D with streaks has the tactical issue in there (and I really like how it is implemented), that deals with the ecm.

Keep in mind that it is a very squishy little light mech taken out by one streak-cat salvo in most cases.

Sure you are safe under your ecm bubble against streaks and lrm but, if you are facing other ecm mechs or a group guarded by ecm, you’re not safe at all. So this gives a new level of strategy to this little fella, as the pilot needs to know when to keep up the bubble (and in most times being unable to fire those streaks) and when to counter an enemy ecm (dropping your own guard and being prone to be fired upon by lrm's and streaks) to make use of those streaks.
And also keep in mind, the mech config im talking about has a damage value of 15, alright.

Whith any other commando build its much more OP to be able to equip an ECM, because you can load 2 med laser on it and dont have to think about your tactic. So you just stay under your ECM-bubble and fire those lasers while circling your enemy, perhaps go with some srm's as well and you dont have to adjust your ecm to any situation.

My assumption is that most people who complain now about ecm are not used to play in a coordinated group and tend to go alone trying to be the ultimate killing machine. That won't work so well anymore with most builds, and im glad that ecm changed that. So stick together and watch out for your teammates.

Little mentioned around here, did you noticed how the ecm cloak brought up the necessity of using heat vision more often?

I definitely like that about ecm!

Gladly! 3xSSRM2 Commando is TOTALLY viable with ECM.

3xSSRM2 is 4.5 tons. 2 tons of ammo is actually quite adequate, that's 200 missiles or 33 full volleys. 3 tons is ideal but I've found 2 tons to be survivable. Medium Laser is another ton.

XL 195 engine, 166/168 armor, Endo Steel. After Speed Tweak I'm doing 136kph.

ECM fits on my dood.

Streak Commando is a vicious little light hunter, and frankly I'm glad to see fewer Jenners running around playing light mechs on easy mode. I'm just not sure I like the overall effect ECM is having on the game. It feels like one fix always winds up breaking something else.

Edited by DTheSleepless, 07 December 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[sp1ce weezl]

DTheSleepless, on 07 December 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Gladly! 3xSSRM2 Commando is TOTALLY viable with ECM.

3xSSRM2 is 4.5 tons. 2 tons of ammo is actually quite adequate, that's 200 missiles or 33 full volleys. 3 tons is ideal but I've found 2 tons to be survivable. Medium Laser is another ton.

XL 195 engine, 166/168 armor, Endo Steel. After Speed Tweak I'm doing 136kph.

....

Alright, I'll take everything back and claim the the contrary to be true, that build is realy viable and yes 2 tons of ssrm ammo is quite enough for most matches. However with the addition of an XL reactor you probably dont have so many c-bills left after a match, ssrm ammo is costy already, a damaged xl reactor even more so.

DTheSleepless, on 07 December 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

...I'm just not sure I like the overall effect ECM is having on the game. It feels like one fix always winds up breaking something else.

True, but I'm positive that things turn out good.
There will always be a balance issue and some things might not be only balanced by game mechanics but by the community.
People know that playing a streak cat is a weak playstile and is beeing frowned upon for instance and therefor most people tend to not play it because of that.
It reminds me of bunny-hopping AW gamer in CSS, back in the days.

[Tomman]

I have waited a few days to post comments on the ECM board... in that time I have ran a load of mechs, tried 8v8, and even tried using ECM (on a Commando).

People complaining about ECM in the 8v8 being OP is rediculous because it is not the ECM that is OP it is that if you play with a logical loadout (2,2,2,2; 1,3,3,1; 2,1,3,2; etc) you can't challenge the teams that are running 6+ assaults, the 8v8 system is broken. BUT we knew it would be they told us so either wait for a fix to the 8v8 or quit whining and try to enjoy the matches that are actually close to balanced. After all we have been begging for 8 mans back right.

Now to the meat of the post. Mostly I run NON-ECM mechs thats right I still run my Huncies, Jenners, and Dragons. I did buy a Commando 2D to try out running ECM but I have only about 10 drops in it. I can agree that ECM is litteraly strangling the Missles out of the game.... but not necissarily to the point of extinction.... I know you missle boat lovers are going to hate this post but the truth is that a BALANCED group would not drop in 6+ missle boats, 1-2 missle boats per team is LOGICAL.... in my experience dropping at various times (early morning CST, midday, evening, and late night) over the course of multiple days I have been seeing 1-2 missle boat in most matches. So LRMs are not the cure to all that they were...Good. I think LRMs and ECM is balanced fairly well, maybe a little tweek to make the LRMs a bit more effective but it is nice not to see 6+ LRM boats anymore.

Now my big issue with ECM is that Streaks on any mech with out ECM are useless....
I normally run 2 racks of Streaks on my Dragon 1N and Hunch 4SP for anti-light duties....I had to switch these out for SRMs.... now I am limitted to lasers as my only light defense. And my Jenner D now has no real advantage over the K or even the F as the likelyhood that I am going to hit another light in a circle strafe with SRMS....0. I know that a developer post said that they were happy with Streaks as they were on mechs but not on Boats.... Now with ECM we have no more streaks. I don't need my Streaks but I don't want to see them gone from the game either. So there needs to be some tweeking there. I am glad to see the StreakCat gone or mostly, but to kill a weapon completely is still wrong, there needs to be some tweek here, perhaps allow streaks to be fire by wire (IE they hit wherever the targeting reticule is) when lock is not possible.

I do like the idea of a max weight for a group on the 8v8, and a maximum number of ECMs per drop on 8v8. that would probably fix most issues on the 8v8 problem. On the Pug drops I think things are pretty good.

Also I drop as a solo member of House Marik, part of a 4 man premade House Marik pug, or part of an 8 man premade either for House Marik or the 4th Regulan Hussars. So my game experience is varied.

Fear the Eagle, but Fear the Knife more!

www.house-marik.net
www.totheknife.com

[sp1ce weezl]

Tomman, on 07 December 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

...
Now my big issue with ECM is that Streaks on any mech with out ECM are useless....
I normally run 2 racks of Streaks on my Dragon 1N and Hunch 4SP for anti-light duties....I had to switch these out for SRMs.... now I am limitted to lasers as my only light defense. And my Jenner D now has no real advantage over the K or even the F as the likelyhood that I am going to hit another light in a circle strafe with SRMS....0. I know that a developer post said that they were happy with Streaks as they were on mechs but not on Boats.... Now with ECM we have no more streaks. I don't need my Streaks but I don't want to see them gone from the game either. So there needs to be some tweeking there. I am glad to see the StreakCat gone or mostly, but to kill a weapon completely is still wrong, there needs to be some tweek here, perhaps allow streaks to be fire by wire (IE they hit wherever the targeting reticule is) when lock is not possible.
...

If you drop with in a 4 mech team, why is that so? Even in a PUG you just need to find out who has ECM installed and stick to him, or make him stick with you, so if you happened to be unable to lock your streaks, your ECM-Mech can counter that .... and boom goes the dynamite!

[Snib]

sp1ce weezl, on 07 December 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

If you drop with in a 4 mech team, why is that so? Even in a PUG you just need to find out who has ECM installed and stick to him, or make him stick with you, so if you happened to be unable to lock your streaks, your ECM-Mech can counter that .... and boom goes the dynamite!

my observation is that most of those running ecm in pugs either don't know they can counter or don't care. most ecm lights and mediums just go run off on their own anyway. at least that's been my experience so far. good ecm operators are (still) rare.

[BPM]

DTheSleepless, on 07 December 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Gladly! 3xSSRM2 Commando is TOTALLY viable with ECM.

3xSSRM2 is 4.5 tons. 2 tons of ammo is actually quite adequate, that's 200 missiles or 33 full volleys. 3 tons is ideal but I've found 2 tons to be survivable. Medium Laser is another ton.

XL 195 engine, 166/168 armor, Endo Steel. After Speed Tweak I'm doing 136kph.

ECM fits on my dood.

Streak Commando is a vicious little light hunter, and frankly I'm glad to see fewer Jenners running around playing light mechs on easy mode. I'm just not sure I like the overall effect ECM is having on the game. It feels like one fix always winds up breaking something else.

2d
3streaks
2ton ammo, full reload is 27k
1med L
ecm
armor 176 of 178
4 std hs
and xl 170 =110.1 kph
wreaked xl 170 repair26k
costs,..total blowout=55k but mostly 35k ish
as this stands its a win win build
just my 2 pence worth

[Ixis]

GalaxyBluestar, on 06 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

you've never used an LRM boat obviously cause there is no mashing, you have to hold locks in order to have some chance of hitting with such slow missles which means you're going to all sorts of trouble to pick out a target that's not going to get cover in time or you'll watch salvos wasted on buildings hills and the ground every time. ecm has killed alot of those oppotunites which makes lrm's dead weight now. it's right to stop anything being overpowered but it's not right to kill them off entirely. that makes boring sameme gameplay.

actually my friend I have run an lrm boat,the point I was trying to make is that now you have to think about what you're doing in a game,its brought the tactics back into matches.Yes its harder to be as effective as it used to be with lrm's but then its hard to hit a jenner with a gauss rifle when he's running around your atlas at 130kph burning holes in your armour with his lasers, and not every mech is going to be under an ecm umbrela,these are the targets you're looking for or as I said wait until the ecm mech gets taken out,they're going to be at the top of everyones hit list so its just a matter of patience and then pay day for you because most of the mechs will have already taken damage so you'll have a greater chance of a kill.ECM hasn't killed lrm's off its just made them harder to use.But thats warfare,nothing stays the same,those who learn to adapt survive,those who don't,die

[Xenok]

Gunfighterfd, on 06 December 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

OK I am driving a LRM cat. THE LRM CAT IS NOW WORTHLESS! THE ECM IS WAY OVERPOWERED. I Should STILL BE ALBE TO LOCK A MECH FOR LRM FIRE. IT SHOULD JUST TAKE LONGER AND REDUCE THE RANGE AT WHICH I CAN LOCK. ECM SHOULD NOT EFFECT TAG. MY LRM CAT IS TOTALY WORHTLESS NOW THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TAKING AN ENTIRE CLASS OF MECH OUT OF THE GAME.

Um, no this would make ECM dumb. What you need is BAP and Narc to be effective counters to ECM. This forces tactics rather than simply bombarding people from a safe distance. This would be good. I agree that there are not sufficient counters for ECM in the game, but ECM should be largely, if not completely as it is.

[sp1ce weezl]

Snib, on 07 December 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

my observation is that most of those running ecm in pugs either don't know they can counter or don't care. most ecm lights and mediums just go run off on their own anyway. at least that's been my experience so far. good ecm operators are (still) rare.

Yeah, thats true. Many player dont realise that it is a teamplay.
However, there is this [y]-button on your keyboard which enables you to yell at some teammates. Im very fond of that button and use it realy often, i think its in PUG games a real gamechanger and totally OP but psssst, dont let the devs know and nerf it .
Actually i had many instances for example, in which I yelled at some pug-mates who where in on going to hunt down a retreading enemy, instead of flanking the assault mech to the cap .... and it worked, they turned and sticked to me... winwin .

[Harrison Kelly]

GravityDog, on 06 December 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

unlike some posts have said, LRM's are not dead due to ECM, still doing damge and gettng kills in PUG matches.

I did some PUG matches yesterday after doing 8v8s exclusively last couple days. LRMs still seem fairly viable in PUG matches, especially when you bring your own TAG laser. You're not going to be able to engage at 900 meters with a spotter reliably, so cherish the moments you can.

Using them at the fringes of a brawl from about 400 meters out to use the TAG without getting lit up by SRMs/medium lasers/AC20s was fairly effective.

LRMs are still junk in 8v8s where there are guaranteed 4+ ECM Mechs per drop.

[DrBunji]

Lots of people in this thread that need to suck it up and realize that standing 1km from the combat and winning games by holding LMB, or abusing SSRMs to win every brawl and two shot any light mech isn't "balanced".

Ill go as far as to say that the TAG could use a range buff, but other than that... LRM's aren't supposed to be the be-all end-all weapon in the game - there is only one chassi that relies exclusively on missiles, yet that has become the most common mech on the field. It's a support weapon, jesus christ.

A streak cat backed up with a ECM boat is still as dangerous. Oh whats that? Streak Cats can't operate as well as lonewolf mechs? You can't run off on your own and expect to get 3+ kills? I'm sorry my stock of ***** to give is growing dangerously low.

TL;DR
Cry some more missilespammers, take your QQ home with you and L2P

[Tesunie]

Nyx, on 05 December 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

ECM is so damn retardedly OP right now. Way to go screwing up the entire game.

ECM is SUPPOSED to increase missle lock time, NOT NULLIFY IT.

ECM is SUPPOSED to DECREASE detection range, NOT MAKE THEM NINJAS.

ECM is SUPPOSED to apply to ONLY to the unit carrying it, NOT blanket in an area around them.

Oh, and ECM is supposed to nullify artillary strikes, since this isnt implimented we dont have issues with this.

The only damn thing you got right is ECM nullifying another ECM.

ECM is suppose to produce a field of interferience. I think you are thinking about the Null Signature/ECM Suit (instead of Guardian) that effect only the unit that carries such a system. The Gaurdian verion (used in this game) produce a field of electronic garbage that disrupts enemies sensors and communications.

And ECM has never been used to counter ECM. So that is also wrong. It's been one of the big headaches with the system. ECM never counters ECM. That's ECCM, a different system. But then again, you normally counter ECM with better and more advanced sensors. Not more ECM. Also, in a more balancing standpoint of ECM, having the only counter being more ECM just makes it a match of who has the most ECM on the field.

Considering I had several matches yesterday where my team had no ECM, and the other team did, we got stopmed. They clustered together nice and tight, took down the scouts with dead silence, and then proceeded to catch one group of us after another and systematiclly destroyed us all. Right now, ECM is overpowered because the countermeasures are... well... more ECM. It's a battle of ECM more than anything else right now. Not to mention ECM should be much more rare on the field than it currently is. It should be expensive to maintain and expensive to get. In lore, it was hardly if ever mentioned. It was such a rare thing, it didn't get seen very often. Usually only as a scouting tool more than a ninja a group and to a blind massive assault. But scouts are really limited in this game right now. It's not like we have campaigns, where a scout would be useful to check out an enemy base and report intel back to the front lines. It's not like we need scouts for the moment from very large matches and need them to tell the slower mechs where the enemy positions are. The maps are rather small for a scout to truely be fully utilized. Don't get me wrong. Scouts are still very vital.

Basically, ECM is good, but it is a tad too much at the moment. We need some form of softening it up with some counters, or it needs to be downgraded just a tad to disrupt sensor information, turn off advanced targgeting equipment and slow down target locks. It shouldn't be a perfect (or near perfect) shield to any guided missiles. I should still be able to shoot my LRMs at people with ECM and have it get a lock and home in, just it should hinder and make it take longer, with no bonuses from any gear (by lore).

So basically, either it needs to be tuned down a tad, or it needs to have some ways of lessoning it's impact on the field. LRMs and SSRMs should not be rendered useless or near useless because of ECM. Just less effective.

[Gnume]

I love the sound effect of being Jammed...the audio clue is a nice addition and gives me info without requiring me to take my eyes off the battlefield to look at indicators. However, I do not believe I should be getting the Jamming Sound when I am in range of Friendly Mechs using ECM. This has been happening to me since implementation...most noticeable at the start of a match before any enemy mech even has time to get within ECM Range, so it must be coming from Friendlies.

[Not a Number]

Xenok, on 07 December 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

[...]

Um, no this would make ECM dumb. What you need is BAP and Narc to be effective counters to ECM. This forces tactics rather than simply bombarding people from a safe distance. This would be good. I agree that there are not sufficient counters for ECM in the game, but ECM should be largely, if not completely as it is.

No, ECM is supposed to be a counter to BAP and NARC if you look at the tabletop rules. It would be silly to turn that on its head just because ECM is much more powerful in MWO than it is in other BattleTech games. It should be more of a real counter instead of requiring a whole lot of counters itself.

What would really force tactics is if an ECM equipped mech (like a fast scout) had to get within 180M of a missile boat to keep it from using its missiles. That already seems possible now but is made redundant by the fact that ECM also reduces sensor range to 200M. ECM would still be quite potent if it didn't do this but also require taking some risk to really be effective, which is fine.

Stripping the sensor range reduction would also put it much closer to canon ECM, so there's that too.

Edited by Not a Number, 07 December 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Not a Number, on 07 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

No, ECM is supposed to be a counter to BAP and NARC if you look at the tabletop rules. It would be silly to turn that on it's head just because ECM is much more powerful in MWO than it is in other BattleTech games. It should be more of a real counter instead of requiring a whole lot of counters itself.

What would really force tactics is if an ECM equipped mech (like a fast scout) had to get within 180M of a missile boat to keep it from using its missiles. That already seems possible now but is made redundant by the fact that ECM also reduces sensor range to 200M. ECM would still be quite potent if it didn't do this but also require taking some risk to really be effective, which is fine.

Stripping the sensor range reduction would also put it much closer to canon ECM, so there's that too.

Well said. I don't agree about BAP being nullified though, BAP needs to counter ECM, otherwise it stays "ECM or bust"

[Not a Number]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 07 December 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Well said. I don't agree about BAP being nullified though, BAP needs to counter ECM, otherwise it stays "ECM or bust"

The only reason BAP is being nullified right now is because of the sensor range reduction ECM causes, when it should only be affected if it were inside the ECM bubble. That wouldn't be such a big deal.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Not a Number, on 07 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

No, ECM is supposed to be a counter to BAP and NARC if you look at the tabletop rules. It would be silly to turn that on it's head just because ECM is much more powerful in MWO than it is in other BattleTech games. It should be more of a real counter instead of requiring a whole lot of counters itself.

What would really force tactics is if an ECM equipped mech (like a fast scout) had to get within 180M of a missile boat to keep it from using its missiles. That already seems possible now but is made redundant by the fact that ECM also reduces sensor range to 200M. ECM would still be quite potent if it didn't do this but also require taking some risk to really be effective, which is fine.

Stripping the sensor range reduction would also put it much closer to canon ECM, so there's that too.

Well ECM is supposed to nullify BAP.But deffinitely not supposed to DO anything except longer lock on outside 180m bubble -.-

[Not a Number]

Yep, that would be fine.