2028 replies to this topic

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

If a team NEEDS ECM be competitive then it is broken in its current form. Adding it to the Atlas D-DC is a bad idea as it encourages abusive brawling. Not too many lrms out there these days

[Lupus Aurelius]

Regardless of the spin, ECM is overpowered. All the comments of "learn to play", "adapt", "no more cheesy missile fire", mostly has been coming from the people who screamed nerf LRM and Streaks, who would not "learn2play" or adapt either. I'm usually an advocate of porting TT rules into game, but at the same time, TT and online gaming are not the same thing. Game balance in a turn based RPG is not necessarily good balance in a computer game. Though at times the devs seem very selective about that, like the effect of tripling fire rates but leaving heat dissipation alone, ER PPC are not even viable.

What is said on these forums is one thing, whine, scream, insult, put down anyone you want. I've given up on "honest debate" based on facts,data, or objective reasoning, and people will argue from the point of view of what they personally want and not what is good game balance, or enjoyable gaming, for a community as a whole. But, here is the kind of perception being broadcast OUTSIDE these forums, that people will see a form opinions about this game, and if anything, PGI should be concerned about it.
http://www.youtube.c...e&v=X2LJqT8JMRY

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 07 December 2012 - 04:25 PM.

[Franck991]

PeeAeMKay, on 07 December 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

I like the idea of ECM:

• I like to have one more option to counter LRM boats.
  
• I like how ECM can strengthen team play since you have to coordinate with the ECM mechs where they go and who they protect.
  
• I like to disrupt streak boats and to make their life more difficult.

However, in it's current form ECM suddenly feels like the central, core element of the game. Everything seems to revolve around ECM, especially in PUGs:

• Do we have ECM on our team or not?
  
• Where do our ECM fitted mechs go, so I can stay close to them?
  
• If I leave the ECM bubble, I'm suddenly the lone target for the enemy LRMs.
  
• Where are the enemy ECM mechs, so we can kill them off first?

So, right now ECM seems to limit gameplay, instead of diversifying it. If coordination in your team fails, the ECM mechs wander off alone and you have no benefit from it. If coordination works however, all mechs move forward in one blob instead of maybe flanking the other team.




Also, for LRM boats, the matches now fall into two categories:

• The enemy team is unlucky and has no ECM.
  
• The enemy team has ECM, which means that it is extremly hard for them to participate in any meaningful way. They have to hope that the enemy ECM mechs get killed off fast, or that the enemy team breaks formation. They have not much influence over both options, making the gameplay frustratingly passive for them.

I want to have ECM in the game, but I agree that it maybe should make locking targets harder, not impossible. Right now, it dominates the gameplay, it should have a weakness or counter.

This is exactly what i feel. ECM is narrowing possibilities by dragging off everyone to its extended benefits where it should add diversity and roles.

I think the core concepts to ECM is to deepen the role-play sensation and add cooperative elements, which are themselves core concepts to the game. I am very confident they will adjust it to fit to its rightful place.

With ECM in, i just start to feel more complex strategies coming along on a side road...

This is VERY welcome, as it is refreshing.

Good job.

(no-locking should be available in the game although it looks like being too much to combine it simultaneously with the other benefits. It COULD be a whole role in itself, not saying it should be...)

Edited by Franck991, 07 December 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[PeeAeMKay]

Lupus Aurelius, on 07 December 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

What is said on these forums is one thing, whine, scream, insult, put down anyone you want. I've given up on "honest debate" based on facts,data, or objective reasoning, and people will argue from the point of view of what they personally want and not what is good game balance, or enjoyable gaming, for a community as a whole. But, here is the kind of perception being broadcast OUTSIDE these forums, that people will see a form opinions about this game, and if anything, PGI should be concerned about it.
http://www.youtube.c...e&v=X2LJqT8JMRY

Sorry, but the author of that video admits himself that it is just a QQ video, it says so in the description. And that's what it is, just QQing.

As mentioned above, I agree that ECM isn't working that well yet, but I think the idea behind it is good. And I think the system can make the game very interesting with the right tweaks. But the video doesn't discuss that, it doesn't go into an analysis of or discuss how ECM could be changed so that it does what it's intended to do without disrupting parts of the game. All it goes on about is how everythings ruined now.

You say you have given up on "honest debate", well this video certainly isn't contributing in any way to a debate either.

I think ECM can work, if it is tweaked into the right direction, and I think we should gather ideas on how to do that instead of putting our energy into creating videos like that.

[Padic]

The third in the series of me musing on ECM:

I think I fundamentally appreciate the kinds of things that this patch introduced to the game. Jamming missiles, masking your targeting information, countering existing ECMs... I think that all of these things make the game better.

There is an element of danger to the game now that it lacked before. I have never feared Atlases the way I fear seeing and ECMlas stepping unexpectedly through the mist and smoke of the battlefield.

My objection is still that all of these powers are controlled by a single piece of equipment, and can only be wielded by a handful of battlemechs.

[GalaxyBluestar]

D1irte, on 07 December 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

It was a joke. That crap takes away every single strategy. Just take ECM and AC /Lasers. Its the best strategy now
ECM is as broken as was the 1st artemis. Where he just headshoted everything ,now even if you had old OP artemis. No 1 would give a damn... You cant use it properly any way. Nor pub nor team games. Today i played in dropship 13. Played more than 15 games. And only 3 games i had seen some rockets. And im still no shure if those misiles did anything. Because i had 0 rockets incoming in my way.

as much as this is poorly worded it's exactly what's happening thanks to ecm. i've capped with impunity twice because it's so predictable for the ecm teams to just group gang the othe group, they waste time brawling whilst i marryly stroll out in the open being ignored and cap. the game's become too predictable, no one covers anything anymore, stratagy has gone from sameme to almost nothing different happening at all... i'm bored now.

[Umbra8]

Drop the effects of ECM to 180 meters, as its supposed to be. If you're outside that range, you can lock and fire. Missiles lose lock at 180 meters. BAP, Artemis, NARC do not function on EMC equipped mechs. No communication to/from friendlies within 180 meters of the jamming mech.

Note NONE of this involves a stealth component or lack of targeting outside of 180 meters. That is a different piece of equipment, stealth armour. You can still lock on and fire guided ordinance outside of 180 meters, it just stops working once the missiles or the mech are inside the bubble. THAT is how Guardian ECM is supposed to work. Implement the TT variant and alot of the issues with how unbalancing ECM is (yes, it is) will go away, and the game will still be enriched.

[GalaxyBluestar]

PeeAeMKay, on 07 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Sorry, but the author of that video admits himself that it is just a QQ video, it says so in the description. And that's what it is, just QQing.

As mentioned above, I agree that ECM isn't working that well yet, but I think the idea behind it is good. And I think the system can make the game very interesting with the right tweaks. But the video doesn't discuss that, it doesn't go into an analysis of or discuss how ECM could be changed so that it does what it's intended to do without disrupting parts of the game. All it goes on about is how everythings ruined now.

You say you have given up on "honest debate", well this video certainly isn't contributing in any way to a debate either.

I think ECM can work, if it is tweaked into the right direction, and I think we should gather ideas on how to do that instead of putting our energy into creating videos like that.

it {the youtube video http://www.youtube.c...e&v=X2LJqT8JMRY } may not be directly concerned with the ecm debate, but it really shows the aftermath and highlights how so much is not viable thanks to the sameme tactics and same weapons being employed for the same gameplay. thank ecm for making this such a narrowminded game. i had no problems with lrm boats they were too easy to flank/dodge and gauss cats can easily be outbrawled which is easy to do as gauss cats can't run away. and the streak cat? out range them! well you used to with lrms and snipers but they've been screwed as well. the maps are small so brawlers always had an upperhand to begin with for rushing and smothering play. i agree entirely with what the video highlights and ecm is one of those causes, it's not just a gadget OP it's a tactics and gameplay defuncter!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 December 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[Latvanis]

As i earlyer mentioned.
The best soloutin for ECM would be dubble edge sword. Where everyone (incoulding allies and you) being affected by ECM. That would fix ECM owerpowerness problem. And it would only be an option to use it. Not a disadvantage if you dont.
Now as its stand ,its too good...

[Stingz]

D1irte, on 07 December 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

As i earlyer mentioned.
The best soloutin for ECM would be dubble edge sword. Where everyone (incoulding allies and you) being affected by ECM. That would fix ECM owerpowerness problem. And it would only be an option to use it. Not a disadvantage if you dont.
Now as its stand ,its too good...

Problem is, hit jammer mode till ECM cloak is needed. It won't affect premades with VOIP either, only team without coordination.

Edited by Stingz, 07 December 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[DeaconW]

krolmir, on 07 December 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

It's sad to see terrible pilots doing good because of ECM.

I think you may have just hit onto what is possibly the primary reason why there are so many ECM lovers right now...kudos.

[Stingz]

DeaconW, on 07 December 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think you may have just hit onto what is possibly the primary reason why there are so many ECM lovers right now...kudos.

Not being pinned to the sides of buildings/ cover is why people like ECM. The guy siting at their base can't just hold button, receive kills (occasionally moving mouse around).

LRM fire from a competent team is ridiculously effective, but downright useless when it isn't.

[Draco Harkins]

DeaconW, on 07 December 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think you may have just hit onto what is possibly the primary reason why there are so many ECM lovers right now...kudos.

Deacon for President, and no i'm not trolling.

[DeaconW]

Draco Harkins, on 07 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Deacon for President, and no i'm not trolling.

Thx, DK...it's an honor just to be nominated. I would have to decline, however, if elected. The only political office I desire is the as-yet-to-be-established "Supreme Galactic Commander". it has a nicer ring to it...and possibly a better parking spot.

Edited by DeaconW, 07 December 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[TheSteelRhino]

I propose creation of dedicated ecm killer teams. If u run ecm in game your mech dies

[Evinthal]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 07 December 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I propose creation of dedicated ecm killer teams. If u run ecm in game your mech dies

Someone sounds bitter and ********.

[Hayashi]

Asking people from the following threads to move discussion here. Conversely, people reading this thread may wish to read some of the info in the locked threads in case they contain info not yet posted in here.

Locked ECM feedback thread list:
http://mwomercs.com/...06#entry1568506
http://mwomercs.com/...-ecm-is-broken/
http://mwomercs.com/...the-ecm-debate/
http://mwomercs.com/...pected-benefit/

Locked ECM bugs (and workarounds) thread list:
http://mwomercs.com/...-forest-colony/
http://mwomercs.com/...hed-to-counter/
http://mwomercs.com/...friendly-mechs/

Locked ECM v TAG thread list:
http://mwomercs.com/...190-tag-vs-ecm/
http://mwomercs.com/...ecm-countering/

The purposes of locking and linking threads like this are to:

• Reduce cases where the same thing is said in multiple threads because people don't always cross-read threads. This reduces duplicate discussion.
  
• Allow all of the feedback to be readable, instead of being lost in a cloud of other posts, because this thread is stickied.
  
• Make it easier for developers to read and/or act on our feedback without having to search the entire forum when they want input on a specific issue - ie, ECM implementation.

Thank you for your cooperation.

---

P.S. We used to merge threads for this purpose, but doing so caused the link to the thread before the merge to disappear - the website couldn't keep track of which thread got merged into where; this gave the impression that threads were deleted without a trace. This lock-and-link method prevents that from happening. Granted, the original locked threads will still exist and it makes it a bit harder to read all of them than if they were merged, but it's going to be more effective than if you were to click on a link to previous discussion in your notifications only to get an error saying that thread no longer exists.

Edited by Hayashi, 07 December 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[Stingz]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 07 December 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I propose creation of dedicated ecm killer teams. If u run ecm in game your mech dies

Sounds like a good way to gain infamy quick, and loose C-Bills fast. Missal Strong/Remove ECM, sounds like a good name to use.

Edited by Stingz, 07 December 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[Monky]

I currently feel as though ECM is OP, I can't even consider running non ECM builds on my Cicada 3M which was not the underpowered chassis. I'd be crippling myself unnecessarily, even 1.5 tons of armor or weaponry isn't worth as much as the ECM is.

It needs to lose the no spotting thing - I don't mind it slowing locking down and info gathering, but targeting is an essential game mechanic. I can understand cutting you off from your team's info grid if you're inside the enemy bubble and it isn't countered, but your own personal targeting should still work, maybe at an even further reduced efficiency for locks/info sniffing. Keep the Artemis/BAP/NARC countering, BUFF NARC and BUFF BAP, let TAG do what it does. Then it would be perfectly acceptable to say 'Yeah I want this to buy time against missile strikes and make the enemy have a harder time getting good info on my team' or 'no I think I'd like an AMS better' or 'I could really use the firepower/armor etc more'.

Here are my suggestions for ECM;


1. Remove Atlas D-DC ECM capability

Reasoning - the Atlas is a team-anchor. Countering his ECM means certain death as the majority of his team's firepower is right there with him. Even better is the possibility of multiple D-DC, great fun to run into I assure you. I think it's safe to say ECM on a heavy or assault platform is probably a bad idea.

2. Add ECM to all variants of any chassis that is equipped with them (all commando, raven, cicada).

Reasoning - You will only see variants used to master the ECM capable chassis until majority of the players have it mastered. ECM is the most powerful 1.5 tons out there. After these chassis are mastered, the only ones that will be truly viable will be the ones equipping ECM.

3. Alter the way ECM works - drop the 'no locking enemies in an enemy ECM bubble, allow ECM to counter all missile enhancing addons such as Artemis, NARC, allow ECM to increase lockon and loadout info gathering time by 100% while their friendlies are covered by it. Alter friendly ECM's effect on enemies when they are within the bubble to prevent communication of enemies within your ECM bubble via lockon sharing (IE - lockons only show for them, not for their friendlies, and vice versa - information blackout is what ECM is about.

Reasoning - ECM should not be able to disrupt target people that are under it's umbrella, it is too essential a game mechanic. They should however be able to cut people off from their team's info grid, isolating and disrupting teamwork (removing target indicators like the A, B, C indicators etc so it is harder to coordinate fire as well while the player is within range of the enemy ECM). This is while the enemy is in range of the ECM. When FRIENDLIES are in range of ECM, targeting times against them are doubled, as well as the info sniffing to gather what items they have equipped. BAP of course is disabled by it, but NARC, and Artemis should be too.

Essentially, ECM should be altered from a 'game changer' to a 'neat tool that can counter certain things'. Also, BAP needs some serious buffs, like near instant info gathering, able to detect powered down mechs no matter what, able to spot at any range etc, to be comparable to the ECM.

(TLDR)
- Remove ECM from non-scout chassis
- Add ECM to all variants within ECM capable chassis
- ECM's defensive abilities should be this; increases lock on and info gathering time by 100%, disable benefits of Artemis, NARC, BAP against friendlies in the 'field of coverage'.
- ECM's offensive abilities should be this; removes 'target indicators' aka the A, B, C indicators, from view for any mech within the ECM field, increases their lockon time and info gathering time by 100% against all targets (not stacking with defensive bonus), and prevent info sharing between them and their teammates - lockons can only be provided by their onboard computer and they can't provide info to teammates.

[TheSteelRhino]

I am bitter. U cant lock onto an ecm light unless u have enough of it. U cannot knock them down.

Seems kind of biased


Game just isnt fun