235 replies to this topic

[00dawg]

I'll throw my 2 cents in on the unbalanced side.
I'll also speak as a current tabletop gamer (since pre-Clan days) that this situation in no way resembles how ECM fits in the historical BattleTech picture. Not that I think MWO should be limited by that....just negating the historical argument outright.

Frankly, my games since the patch, even with an organized group, haven't been fun. Most of that was the ECM troubles, with a little bit of being unable to do anything once you've been engaged by a triple UAC/5 hero 'Mech from the front. No missile locks, no radar contacts, and then the opportunity to have my senses irrevocably assaulted by a heavy 'Mech equals a lot less fun than I was having a few days ago.

The tactical responses I'm seeing at the group level make it even less enjoyable: only once last night did I see anything resembling a meeting engagement of old. Instead everyone pinpricks around looking for a weakness with their lights, then the assaults finally engage 5 minutes into the match. Oh joy.

[Panzerjotun]

ECM potential balance issues aside has created a wonderful side effect: people are forced to play as a team or die.

[wanderer]

Bonedog, on 05 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

Anyone who played Tabletop or even the telnet games knows what ecm does. It's not exactly any different here. The battlefield gets new weapons and technology when a new era reins in. With every advantage comes a disadvantage. Don't call something unbalanced because you can't join a match with 7 other LRM boats and score an epic win.

*EDITED FOR GRAMAR*

It's incredibly different from how ECM functions in tabletop, actually.

ECM doesn't neuter LRMs. It negates Artemis/NARC. ECM doesn't render Streak racks unfireable. At worst, they default to standard-fire mode, making them work just like normal SRMs instead. Standard ECM -never- rendered a target invisible to sensors- it merely garbled complex data like C3 networks or Beagle probes (though not Bloodhounds, the advanced version).

Now, you CAN set an ECM to render targeting more difficult, "ghost targeting"- but at the cost of it's other abilities. ECM in MWO gets all the features of the top-of-the-line (Angel) ECM system and then some at this point, and it can use the equivalent of "ghost target" and "jamming" modes together at once, where normally it'd be forced to pick one or the other (or ECCM mode, the "counter" mode we have now). This needs to go in- a 'Mech can ECM one of three ways, but shouldn't get the benefits of two modes at once.

[Mavairo]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Yes, aiming and shooting while moving is so tremendously difficult.

/sigh

Have you seen the average shootist in this game? Half of them can't hit a Dragons CT when the dragon is Standing Still. Apparently it is more difficult than we give it credit for.

Hitting roughly Center Mass with all your Guns while moving isn't tremendously difficult. It's faking out your opponent and getting them to swing whatever juicy bit you want to really see get hit, that takes skill

[Alex Wolfe]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Yes, aiming and shooting while moving is so tremendously difficult.

Point is, aiming and shooting while moving while subject to return fire is more difficult than just shooting while moving sitting by one's teammates, so should yield more reward.

Also, hit me back once PGI fixes their legendary netcode/convergence, ok?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 05 December 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Khobai]

Correct. BAP should be the counter to ECM. And the mechs that can use BAP should be different variants from the ones that use ECM with the sole exception being the Raven which should be able to use both.

[Dukov Nook]

DeathofSelf, on 05 December 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

I have only played a few matches, but, I think ECM is going to bring MORE balance to the game. It will bring about more tactical/skillful/thoughtful playing, Instead of the LRM/SSRM fest we have seen.

It won't. Experienced units looking for tactical combat will use it fine. They will be a very small percent.

Everyone else will just use the 4 chassis with ECM. Eventually, even the people looking for the full Mechwarrior experience will swap over to that mindset as it becomes overwhelming.

One of the core concepts of the game when it was first introduced was to make sure there weren't some chassis that were 'essential' to a drop. Now there is. That is unbalancing.

What will bring balance isn't the game, or the devs. It's the players, looking to find mechanics to counter the semi-broken mechanics of ECM, but that will be not the norm, but the exception. The norm will be people just saying 'f-it' and hopping in one of the 4 current Jesus Mech's that have the ECM shield.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

It won't. Experienced units looking for tactical combat will use it fine. They will be a very small percent.

Everyone else will just use the 4 chassis with ECM. Eventually, even the people looking for the full Mechwarrior experience will swap over to that mindset as it becomes overwhelming.

One of the core concepts of the game when it was first introduced was to make sure there weren't some chassis that were 'essential' to a drop. Now there is. That is unbalancing.

What will bring balance isn't the game, or the devs. It's the players, looking to find mechanics to counter the semi-broken mechanics of ECM, but that will be not the norm, but the exception. The norm will be people just saying 'f-it' and hopping in one of the 4 current Jesus Mech's that have the ECM shield.

Any PuG playing 1 of those 4 mechs most likely won't really know how to use the ECM effectively. The other players around them only stay close because they have it, and scatter when they see a group who knows how to fight against ECM effectively.

[Dukov Nook]

KuruptU4Fun, on 05 December 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Any PuG playing 1 of those 4 mechs most likely won't really know how to use the ECM effectively. The other players around them only stay close because they have it, and scatter when they see a group who knows how to fight against ECM effectively.

It's wrong to assume only PUG's will do this. There are tons of goonswarm type units out there that will flock to this. See Gausscat, streak cat, etc.

[Mavairo]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

It won't. Experienced units looking for tactical combat will use it fine. They will be a very small percent.

Everyone else will just use the 4 chassis with ECM. Eventually, even the people looking for the full Mechwarrior experience will swap over to that mindset as it becomes overwhelming.

One of the core concepts of the game when it was first introduced was to make sure there weren't some chassis that were 'essential' to a drop. Now there is. That is unbalancing.

What will bring balance isn't the game, or the devs. It's the players, looking to find mechanics to counter the semi-broken mechanics of ECM, but that will be not the norm, but the exception. The norm will be people just saying 'f-it' and hopping in one of the 4 current Jesus Mech's that have the ECM shield.

You mean people will finally be dropping the massed streak cat spam and not be running 4+ man drops of it. I fail to see how this is anything but a good thing.

As far as the core tenet of the game went, we were already well past the point of Mandatory mech for a drop. If your team didn't have at least 2 Jenners, and 2 streak cats you were going to lose. Simple as that.

Also I asked previously, has anyone used the TAG during ECM? Does it work? If so then there's your counter. "but it requires me to remove a gun for the good of my team!" In the case of a jenner, that's actually a good thing. gods help us all if the Jenner is actually used for what it was designed to be instead of the be all end all killer (until it saw a streak cat. which could kill it and damn well everything else too)

ECM is a great pug killing weapon. However if TAG, and Narc (lol) work through ECM anyway then it's easily countered providing even just one or two guys on a team (heaven help us) actually think about someone other than themselves.

MWO is a team based game, and weapons, wargear and mechs should never be considered balanced in a vacuum of Individual Thinking Pugs.

[IceSerpent]

Taemien, on 04 December 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

I personally like how ECM has been implemented, however the one thing I would change with them is allowing LRMs and SSRMs to still be able to lock. However you would need to put the targeting reticle on the target itself rather than in the targeting box. This would give LRMs the ability to lock on, at 1000 meters without a spotter, but would require LOS.

This way ECM would still disrupt their capabilities but not entirely neuter them.

I like this idea. PGI can do a similar thing for Streaks too - allow for a lock as long as you keep reticle on target, make lock disappear almost instantly if your reticle drifts off.

[Dukov Nook]

Mavairo, on 05 December 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

You mean people will finally be dropping the massed streak cat spam and not be running 4+ man drops of it. I fail to see how this is anything but a good thing.

As far as the core tenet of the game went, we were already well past the point of Mandatory mech for a drop. If your team didn't have at least 2 Jenners, and 2 streak cats you were going to lose. Simple as that.

I 100% disagree with you there. This statement is flat out wrong.

[KuruptU4Fun]

I'm one of those people who group up (external comms) and we know how to use ECM effectively. I run an ATL-D-DC with 2 SSRMs and ECM. When I was jammed I switched to counter mode, used my Streaks effectively and got a lot of kills (Cataphracts are easy kills in an SSRM fight). The Streak Cat I ran with was effective too... But Gauss Cats? How are they affected by ECM?

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 05 December 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Emery Radick]

Please learn how to play before you scream for the nerf. This guy nailed it.

MungFuSensei, on 04 December 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Two things.

First, I have seen very few people running their ECM in counter.

Second, I have seen very few people running TAG.

We were told in advance how to beat it. Don't complain if you're going to ignore these tips. ECM has finally balanced missiles in general. SSRMs and LRMs are now support weapons, to be used when the situation is right, instead of the boating weapons we've seen forever. Don't pout and fuss, innovate.

1+ interwebs for you friend.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mavairo, on 05 December 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Also I asked previously, has anyone used the TAG during ECM? Does it work? If so then there's your counter. "but it requires me to remove a gun for the good of my team!" In the case of a jenner, that's actually a good thing. gods help us all if the Jenner is actually used for what it was designed to be instead of the be all end all killer (until it saw a streak cat. which could kill it and damn well everything else too)

I've heard mixed answers from my team mates using TAG. Some said it worked others said it didn't. I was to busy running around shooting people with lasers to notice though.

[Stormur Herra]

General Pace, on 05 December 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

ECM potential balance issues aside has created a wonderful side effect: people are forced to play as a team or die.

It feels like most people are going with the latter option.

[Vulture2k]

i havent played many battles last night, but i feel like ECM added a new gamemode xD anyone remembers the as_oilrig map of counterstrike? suddenly when i pilot my raven 3L i feel like the VIP that has sooooooo many friends its funny.. all the teammates hugging me tightly and defending me to the last x_X earlier in 3L in randoms you just got killed lonely and everyone ignored what miracles you did with tag / narc :X

[Mavairo]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

I 100% disagree with you there. This statement is flat out wrong.

You must not play against Skilled teams that actually knew how to use those above 2 chassis then. I'm not referring to pugging. Pugging you could just take a team of commandos in, and probably still 8 and 0 people, fairly easily.

[Kaspirikay]

the only counter to an ECM is another ECM.

[Tex Arcana]

Adrian Steel, on 04 December 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

From another thread, because it has to be said AGAIN. Some of us screamed ECM was borked before they patched it in...sheesh.



One nuclear warhead counters another nuclear warhead. Apparently this makes for plenty of fun gameplay...



I agree with this. However I don't agree with the methodology implemented to counter ECM. Having to bring more of the same leads to one flavor of meta game because it's self fulfilling. If it's an arms race for ECM, all the things that ECM counters (LRM, SSRM, etc). go to the wayside and are considered unimportant. If that's not bad balance, I don't know what is.

This says it all.
If this game is going to reflect an actual "Sim" it needs to encapsulate all aspects; not have something that completely negates elments from a match (By way of turning the game into a "Twitchfest" of close range combat).
I'm sorry: But ECM has become the next ridiculous thing.
And funnily enough: i seem to be having more game crashes.