114 replies to this topic

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Col Forbin, on 06 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Why don't you read the entire thread, douche nozzle? I run a tag on my own mech and my teammates have tag too.

Here's what you missed:

"Well, I guess my point is... IF LRMs were balanced pre-ECM, they are no longer balanced, as ECM puts many restrictions on their use. I would call that indisputable. If you feel that LRMs were OP before ECM, then you can be justified in saying that they are balanced right now."


"I don't mind the teamwork required... I enjoy it. My point is that LRMs were nerfed to account for massive LRM spam occurring pre-ECM. The LRM spam is not happening anymore. I think we can all agree that that ECM provides another large nerf to their usefullness...

I do have an Awesome with LRM 30 (w/ Tag)... so I wouldn't call myself a "boater." I'm primarily a Jenner pilot anyways...."

Lets group together and I'll run LRMs and do 600+ damage easy. I'll even let you pick my loadout if you want. Then when I do it you can come here and post that it wasn't LRMs at all but it was your lack of ability. Sound good?

[Col Forbin]

Gulinborsti, on 08 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

This seems also to be a matter of personal perception and/or pure coincidence.

I played 5 PUG games in my C4 recently, 4 wins and 1/2/1/2/0 kills in this games.
Some games are actually still decided by massive and coordinated LRM usage ...

Yeah, PUG games are... certainly not 8 man group games.

[Col Forbin]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 08 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Lets group together and I'll run LRMs and do 600+ damage easy. I'll even let you pick my loadout if you want. Then when I do it you can come here and post that it wasn't LRMs at all but it was your lack of ability. Sound good?

Sorry, you're offensive and I'd rather not. I'm not very concerned about my game skills, and I have more important things in my life than you trying to impress me. I am curious how you'd do with your LRM boat loadout in an 8-man group vs 6 ECM Atlases and 2 ECM Commandos, though.

[Gulinborsti]

Col Forbin, on 08 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Sorry, you're offensive and I'd rather not. I'm not very concerned about my game skills, and I have more important things in my life than you trying to impress me. I am curious how you'd do with your LRM boat loadout in an 8-man group vs 6 ECM Atlases and 2 ECM Commandos, though.

Well, running a boat (full missile only loadout) you will be a liability for your team and of not much use other than soaking up damage. Equip your mech with a more balanced loadout and keep some backup lasers for example and you are back in the game.

If everyone is running ECM mechs in 8 vs. 8 than this is bad game design, not a problem with LRM damage. LRMs are powerfull against anything without ECM protection and raising the damage will drive even more people to use ECM mechs.

I am up for any discussion about options to counter ECM to some point (BAP improvements, NARC, TAG, ...) but this is already ongoing in different threads.

LRM damage is fine and I think we should bring this discussion to an end.

Edited by Gulinborsti, 08 December 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 08 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Lets group together and I'll run LRMs and do 600+ damage easy. I'll even let you pick my loadout if you want. Then when I do it you can come here and post that it wasn't LRMs at all but it was your lack of ability. Sound good?

Wouldn't it be easier, and more satisfying to your epeen to FRAPs your battles and post them on YouTube so that your l33t skillz will live on forever?

Anyway, 600+ damage is definitely possible with coordinated efforts between the boat pilot and a scout.

Doing it solo, not quite as easy, but occassionally you may run into a stupid PUG group that panics at the sight of an LRM or streak launch, but it'll be rare.

I rarely get near 600 damage, and rarely get more than 2 kills even if I do inflict 600 damage. Flights of LRM's are too spaced, so that if I'm launching at someone else who is brawling with another team mate, all I'm really doing is softening him up for the kill for the brawler.

Solo kills with LRMs take too long unless you get extremely lucky with a few clustered head shots. Remember, what damage that isn't mitigated by environment, movement, and AMS is spread across the target 'mech'***** locations. So, 'quick' kills on undamaged enemies is NOT common.

That is, unless you can post some vids (ie: more than two) that show your prowess...

[Col Forbin]

Gulinborsti, on 08 December 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Well, running a boat (full missile only loadout) you will be a liability for your team and of not much use other than soaking up damage. Equip your mech with a more balanced loadout and keep some backup lasers for example and you are back in the game.

If everyone is running ECM mechs in 8 vs. 8 than this is bad game design, not a problem with LRM damage. LRMs are powerfull against anything without ECM protection and raising the damage will drive even more people to use ECM mechs.

I am up for any discussion about options to counter ECM to some point (BAP improvements, NARC, TAG, ...) but this is already ongoing in different threads.

LRM damage is fine and I think we should bring this discussion to an end.

Yeah, they need to put weight limits on drops. That's where I'm leaning on this.

[van Uber]

Col Forbin, on 06 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

"I don't mind the teamwork required... I enjoy it. My point is that LRMs were nerfed to account for massive LRM spam occurring pre-ECM. The LRM spam is not happening anymore. I think we can all agree that that ECM provides another large nerf to their usefullness...

I'd say that LRMs are fine stats wise, as plenty of PUGs end up without a ECM on one or both sides currently you could not possibly boost them in order to balance them in regard to ECM. I'd also say that the ECM mechanic is quite fun and need not change. But if ECM is absolutely mandatory in 8v8 there should be an adjustment among the countermeasures. NARC and TAG will get a boost the next patch, so lets see what that does. Perhaps BAP will need to be involved at some point, but the main thing is that LRMs are fine, it's the ECM counters that need tweaks.

[Suskis]

LRMs are now back to full power. 2 direct hits with 4LRM20+Artemis destroy a shiny new Awesome (just did it in my last match).
The problem is that ECM + 8 men premade have pushed this game deeply into teamplay only option. Unless you have a spotter with anti-ECM bubble, you can do nothing against ECM shielded units.
ECM changed completely the game and for better, imho. Sadly, I don't have a clan to play with, so I am a lone wolf that is doomed 90% of the times...

[Keeperovod]

Don't touch ECM at all! Properly used LRMs with Artemis still can cause 600-800 damage per match with only 4 tons of ammo on C1 Catapult, equipped with tag. It can be done in 8 player match, in 4 player team on in completely random match. LRMs become skill based weapon and this is amazing. 750m range TAG will cause its usage easier. I think, that is only thing really needed today.

[Farix]

Funny that someone is calling for LRM and be "de-nerfed". I looked at the TT damage tables and find that LRM and (s)SRM damages are 1 and 2 respectively instead of 1.8 and 2.5 as they are in MWO. Perhaps if missile weapons weren't OP to begin with, there would be less QQing over ECM neutering that OPness.

[LennStar]

LRM are good as they are now. You can get killed by LRM in an ECM raven. You can kill a lot of mechs with LRM. Just think when using them.

I would even say the devs have again increased the dmg per LRM.


8man groups where all have an ECM is something else - but so are 8man Jenner groups. Or 8man Atlas groups.

[TigrisMorte]

Farix, on 09 December 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Funny that someone is calling for LRM and be "de-nerfed". I looked at the TT damage tables and find that LRM and (s)SRM damages are 1 and 2 respectively instead of 1.8 and 2.5 as they are in MWO. Perhaps if missile weapons weren't OP to begin with, there would be less QQing over ECM neutering that OPness.

Please look at the armor values before typing.
Then compare damage/second.
Then heat/second
then.. you know what, just forget it. You don't want LRMs to matter. We get that.
Please just admit it and don't insult the brain by acting like anything in this game, other than names, is battletech based.

[EnigmaNL]

LRM's are fine. ECM is fine. Get on with your lives.

[Dimento Graven]

Suskis, on 09 December 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

LRMs are now back to full power. 2 direct hits with 4LRM20+Artemis destroy a shiny new Awesome (just did it in my last match).
The problem is that ECM + 8 men premade have pushed this game deeply into teamplay only option. Unless you have a spotter with anti-ECM bubble, you can do nothing against ECM shielded units.
ECM changed completely the game and for better, imho. Sadly, I don't have a clan to play with, so I am a lone wolf that is doomed 90% of the times...

Again, movies of you doing it more than once, or it didn't happen...

[Dimento Graven]

Farix, on 09 December 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Funny that someone is calling for LRM and be "de-nerfed". I looked at the TT damage tables and find that LRM and (s)SRM damages are 1 and 2 respectively instead of 1.8 and 2.5 as they are in MWO. Perhaps if missile weapons weren't OP to begin with, there would be less QQing over ECM neutering that OPness.

Carefull, TT rules also set armor at 16 points per ton, and in MWO it's 32. So of COURSE some weapons had to have their damage doubled as 'mechs are apparently sporting twice as much armor...

[Kill3rAce]

Col Forbin, on 08 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Sorry, you're offensive and I'd rather not. I'm not very concerned about my game skills, and I have more important things in my life than you trying to impress me. I am curious how you'd do with your LRM boat loadout in an 8-man group vs 6 ECM Atlases and 2 ECM Commandos, though.

It can still be won, and to be honest if you have played 8 man groups lately. I only see a max about 3 ECM units on the regular at this point since the patch. Every once in a while you see losers run 8 ECM's but they can be beaten lol. Its not that hard

[Farix]

Dimento Graven, on 09 December 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Carefull, TT rules also set armor at 16 points per ton, and in MWO it's 32. So of COURSE some weapons had to have their damage doubled as 'mechs are apparently sporting twice as much armor...

A round in the TT is 10 seconds long, therefore the fire rate of weapons were no less than once every 10 seconds. However, in MWO, all missile systems have a recycle rate of less than 5 second (from 3.5 to 4.75 seconds). So all missile systems will have at least twice the fire rate of its TT equivalent. The doubling or better of the fire rate means that missile weapons will do over twice as much damage in the same period of time, thus requiring more armor on a Mech to increase its survivability/playability. Then when you add the 80% and 50% buff on top of that, missiles become far more powerful then they are on the TT.

Remember the reason that Mech have twice as much armor is to deal with the increased fire rates of the weapons and to draw the matches out a little longer. But if you both increasing the fire rate and buff the weapons damage, then you effectively defeated that purpose.

Edited by Farix, 09 December 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Farix, on 09 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

A round in the TT is 10 seconds long, therefore the fire rate of weapons were no less than once every 10 seconds. However, in MWO, all missile systems have a recycle rate of less than 5 second (from 3.5 to 4.75 seconds). So all missile systems will have at least twice the fire rate of its TT equivalent. The doubling or better of the fire rate means that missile weapons will do over twice as much damage in the same period of time, thus requiring more armor on a Mech to increase its survivability/playability. Then when you add the 80% and 50% buff on top of that, missiles become far more powerful then they are on the TT.

Remember the reason that Mech have twice as much armor is to deal with the increased fire rates of the weapons and to draw the matches out a little longer. But if you both increasing the fire rate and buff the weapons damage, then you effectively defeated that purpose.

You're STILL not getting away with suggesting missles are to powerfull based off of TT rules. After all, the same "10 second" estimate applies to ALL OTHER weapons, and movement.

Obviously lasers, machine guns, and AC's are ALL firing faster than once every 10 seconds and movement is not restricted to a maximum 230meters every 10 seconds either... But YOU seem to want to put a 10 second recycle on only missles?!!?!!?

The TT rules are a starting point, but they're not the 'clay tablets written on by the finger of god' you seem to want to make them out to be.

There has to be some leeway when moving from a "turn based" game to a "real time" simulation. Weapon spread, splash damage, impact durations of lasers ALL are in place to accomodate a 'first person' real time play attempting to not make any weapon or any 'mech type completely worthless.

I'd love to see missles move faster, do more damage, have a more 'realistic' balllistic arc, and have a tighter spread.

The balance of the game says "no" and I can live with it, as is, for now.

[Sen]

Quote

[color=#959595]The problem is that ECM + 8 men premade have pushed this game deeply into teamplay only option[/color]

Actually the problem is that so many people were QQ'ing over lack of 8 man pre-mades that PGI rushed it out the door to placate them. Unfortunately, from what I can gather, a significant portion of these groups suddenly found out that, playing against other 8 man teams, they had no SKILL and were getting their buns handed to them. It's easier to blame the game than their lack of skill.

This IS NOT to say that there are not some huge modifications that need to be brought to the table regarding 8 man play. This post is also *NOT* aimed at *ALL* 8 man groups. I'm also willing to believe that, for the DECENT groups, weight limits and/or ECM limits in matches would not significantly affect their performance.

Ultimately, I'm reserving judgement for a few more patches. I've been on both sides of the ECM war, and generally I find it very well balanced when the other team isn't running 5-6 of them.

As far as LRMs are concerned. . I think the o/p read a little much into the whole thing. . I've still seen a fair amount of LRM based weaponry on the field. And streaks. . . .There is nothing more terrifying as an ECM equipped light than to be trying to swat the enemy ECM, have a brain fart, and end up out of position against enemy ECM light + tag +A1 streak cat. It's pre patch frustrating, aggravating, and ultimately EXTREMELY effective. I don't have to LIKE it to acknowledge it's effectiveness.

[Armando]

Crazy...I must be crazy....but it seems that I do MORE damage now with my LRMs since ECM was released than I did before.

Then: I would walk into 1000-750 yard range and fire on lock (regardless of if enemy mech was visible or not). I did a lot of damage, but I also 'missed' a LOT too. I also didn't have many (any really) teammates that would use TAG (or if they WERE I couldn't tell).

Now: I wait to fire until I have lock AND I can see the enemy mech. It also seems that more of my teammates are using TAG.

The Difference: I don't fire my LRMS 'as much' but when I DO fire them more of my missiles hit then before.

The Result: Since the ECM patch I have become a better MechWarrior (albeit by FORCE). I pay more attention, not only about waiting to fire my LRMs until the enemy mech is in range, I have it targeted, AND it is visible to me...but also more attention to my position on the map relative to my teammates. At this point I could care less if they make ANY changes to ECM / LRMs (or NARC, TAG, etc). If they make using LRMs easier somehow…awesome, if not…I am still good to go. ;-)

I also enjoy not being blown away by a million missiles 120 seconds after a match starts.