3036 replies to this topic

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

SJ SCP Wolf, on 03 January 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Oh I see, it's the "I am bad and blindly so, so i shall stick my fingers in my ears and ignore the possibility I could be wrong and I could be the problem" response. Got it. Talking to wall.

le exit!

Funny you just say that, since it is exactly what ECM defenders are doing. They refuse to see any kind of logic, in favor of plugging ears and literally yelling "LA LA LA LA IT'S FINE GO AWAY L2P LA LA LA LA".

Der Ausfahrt!

Edited by Bluten, 03 January 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[Prat]

Wolf, why would you keep going about how we now have to L2P without LRM easy mode button yet there's no denying that Commandos and Ravens now are the only ones that can use streaks with impunity?

You find it ok that only 4 mechs can use Streaks effectively and everyone else just L2P? How do you NOT see the problem here?

The argument that you can't use LRMs now is bogus anyway because LRMs are NOT THE ISSUE! We can all still use LRMs just fine with tag. StreakMandos and StreakRavens are the issue. They're not even a problme for a heavy or an assault since you can waste them with a well timed alpha. However for OTHER LIGHT mechs and some mediums, they're a huge problem.

They do not have to aim. They do not have to take into account net code issues. They do not have to worry about the other teams LRMs. All they have to do is get a lock once and then circle you. At which point you can engage - and eat LRMS in the face since you don't have ECM or run, and eat Streaks in the back.

When you obsolete EVERY light except for 2 variants, you've got a problem on your hands.

[SVK Puskin]

WolvesX, on 28 December 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

I was a big fan of ECM in the beginning as many of my clan mates where.

- Brings more strategy into the game.
- More tactic options.
- Balances stuff out.
- etc....

BUT

Fact is, I got an ECM Commando (for PUG trololol) now, an ECM Raven (for anything), an ECM Atlas (for anything).

These mech are simply the best in my whole hangar now. I got 4 Awesomes, 3 Hunchbacks (sold one), 1 Dragon, 1 Centurion (Sold 2), 1 Atlas (Sold 2), 1 Raven (Sold 2)... and I feel that I'm somekind of trolling / insulting my own intelligence if I play an other mech but the Raven3L or the AtlasDDC, because they are just so redic. OP.

YES

OP!

ECM is more then a hard counter to LRMs and Steaks. The lack of a fast way to communicate with randoms means, you can't ******** tell them where the enemy is and what he is planning to do.


Lagshield makes it even worse, especially with the 3L, my masterd 3L runs 143 KPH and I got a ping of 190.

You CAN'T hit me. You just can't!

As long as I don't do piloting errors, you just can't hit me.

TAG can't counter ECM. ECM is the counter to ECM. ECM does narrow your choise of viable mechs.

You know, in the days before ECM I considered myself a MEDIUM pilot. The first Master I got was with Hunchback, the sec with Cent, but since ECM is so OP, its not hard to play other mech... its just not making ANY sence.


Nerf it.


Remove it.


Cut ECM out of the game.

/ECM rant

I remember very good when i was driving my D-DC Atlas with ECM and i have been TAGed and under missile fire!

[PANZERBUNNY]

Prat, on 03 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Wolf, why would you keep going about how we now have to L2P without LRM easy mode button yet there's no denying that Commandos and Ravens now are the only ones that can use streaks with impunity?

You find it ok that only 4 mechs can use Streaks effectively and everyone else just L2P? How do you NOT see the problem here?

The argument that you can't use LRMs now is bogus anyway because LRMs are NOT THE ISSUE! We can all still use LRMs just fine with tag. StreakMandos and StreakRavens are the issue. They're not even a problme for a heavy or an assault since you can waste them with a well timed alpha. However for OTHER LIGHT mechs and some mediums, they're a huge problem.

They do not have to aim. They do not have to take into account net code issues. They do not have to worry about the other teams LRMs. All they have to do is get a lock once and then circle you. At which point you can engage - and eat LRMS in the face since you don't have ECM or run, and eat Streaks in the back.

When you obsolete EVERY light except for 2 variants, you've got a problem on your hands.

You are asking some of these mongrels to actually think though. That's an uphill battle.

When someone DOES manage to get a TAG lock on ECM mechs, they merely have to lower themselves to everyone else's playing standards and actually take cover.

It's quite a substantial lock on time.

Taking cover and block LOS is so easy or sending one of your ECM lights to those LRM mechs screws them from locking onto anything.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 03 January 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[WolvesX]

8 man team:

ATLAS DDC x 5
RAVEN 3L x 3

Can't remember one match as a lose....

[Griffinhart]

I think ECM is mostly ok, but there are a couple of tweaks that would make it better.

1. Match Maker should take ECM into account. There are too many matches I have seen where there are multiple ECM on one team, and zero on another.

2. If Tag doesn't counter ECM within 180M (I'm honestly not sure if it does or not), it should.

3. Narc should have a duration of at least 1 minute and (if it doesn't) counter ECM for that target. I don't think I have ever seen a Narc launcher in the wild because the duration of the beacons are so useless, especially given the weight of the weapon + ammo. This would make them usefull, and we will see more counters to ECM

[Khobai]

Quote

ECM is fine

The concept of ECM is fine. The implementation is not.

1) ECM grants too much stealth
2) ECM hard counters missiles too much

ECM should not grant as much stealth, it should reduce sensor range to like 400m or 500m at most, not 200m. Also ECM should not prevent streaks from firing. At worst it should turn streaks into normal srms. Lastly, LRMs need an indirect fire nerf because indirect fire with LRMs is still way too good. In tabletop, you basically needed roll 11 or 12 on 2d6 to hit with indirect fired LRMs... they were extremely inaccurate unlike MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 03 January 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

1. Match Maker should take ECM into account. There are too many matches I have seen where there are multiple ECM on one team, and zero on another.
-This is just a poor man's solution to the problem, just like the 1 to 1 class ratio is in MM. It's ducktape. But this is probably what they will do.

2. If Tag doesn't counter ECM within 180M (I'm honestly not sure if it does or not), it should.
-It doesn't do squat if you're being jammed by an enemy close to you with ECM. But you shouldn't need a Tag anyway just to enable Streaks to fire. They are already a close range weapon. They should be able to shoot, even if its with a delayed timer or reduced damage.

3. Narc should have a duration of at least 1 minute and (if it doesn't) counter ECM for that target. I don't think I have ever seen a Narc launcher in the wild because the duration of the beacons are so useless, especially given the weight of the weapon + ammo. This would make them usefull, and we will see more counters to ECM
-NARC doesn't do squat vs ECM at all currently. If it did, that would be nice. But a 1min disable would be too long. Even if it was 15 or 20s per rocket that would be meaningful. But currently it's 0. It does nothing.(And thus there is no reason to even carry it)

You should add BAP to the list btw. If ECM is going to be so powerful, why isn't the BAP also this powerful? Why does it do nothing to help?

[WolvesX]

Bluten, on 03 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

As I walk through the valley of locks and missiles, I shall fear no barrages. Follow me, my children, for I shall protect thee against missiles with my divine power. We shall draw a line in the sand and say, "Missiles! Begone from this battlefield!" -Holy words from inside the jesus box.

Nice!

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

WolvesX, on 03 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Nice!

Praise me, for I am the jesus box. Stand near me and you will be protected. Behold my holy power. Our faith is pure and nothing will ever... oh crap, there's a Tag laser! Run! Hide from this evil! Power of jesus box compels you, missiles! Power of jesus box compels you!

[Griffinhart]

Bluten, on 03 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

1. Match Maker should take ECM into account. There are too many matches I have seen where there are multiple ECM on one team, and zero on another.
-This is just a poor man's solution to the problem, just like the 1 to 1 class ratio is in MM. It's ducktape. But this is probably what they will do.

You can call it ducktape if you want, but a match making system that is supposed to balance sides, should certainly take something like this into consideration.

Quote

2. If Tag doesn't counter ECM within 180M (I'm honestly not sure if it does or not), it should.
-It doesn't do squat if you're being jammed by an enemy close to you with ECM. But you shouldn't need a Tag anyway just to enable Streaks to fire. They are already a close range weapon. They should be able to shoot, even if its with a delayed timer or reduced damage.

I think streaks needed a counter. They were easy mode the way they were. I was skeptical at first, thinking they were ok, but after playing a few rounds in a streak cat, It was pretty clear.

Quote

3. Narc should have a duration of at least 1 minute and (if it doesn't) counter ECM for that target. I don't think I have ever seen a Narc launcher in the wild because the duration of the beacons are so useless, especially given the weight of the weapon + ammo. This would make them usefull, and we will see more counters to ECM
-NARC doesn't do squat vs ECM at all currently. If it did, that would be nice. But a 1min disable would be too long. Even if it was 15 or 20s per rocket that would be meaningful. But currently it's 0. It does nothing.(And thus there is no reason to even carry it)

I still think 1 minute is appropriate given the weight of the system. 3 tons plus ammo (6 rounds per ton). Just not worth it.

Quote

You should add BAP to the list btw. If ECM is going to be so powerful, why isn't the BAP also this powerful? Why does it do nothing to help?

You know, I'm not sure how that one works. Is it actually functioning, and what does it do?

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

You can call it ducktape if you want, but a match making system that is supposed to balance sides, should certainly take something like this into consideration.
-If it was properly balanced and not OP, it wouldn't need to be cared about in matchmaking. Other devices and weapons aren't, and they don't need to be. ECM shouldn't either, but it does, and that's due to being OP. Thus I call this kind of change "ducktape". When you can't fix it right, you just put ducktape on it. It shouldn't need to be an MM factor; it should just be balanced on its own. But we know how Piranha operates now so I won't be surprised if ECM is left entirely like it is but put into MM as a 1 to 1 team ratio.

I think streaks needed a counter. They were easy mode the way they were. I was skeptical at first, thinking they were ok, but after playing a few rounds in a streak cat, It was pretty clear.
-Streaks were OP, but making them entirely unable to shoot wasn't a logical solution. They should be able to fire, but just be nerfed in some way by ECM.(Like dealing less damage and/or delaying lock timer) Better yet, you could have nerfed them directly. It now revolves entirely around ECM or no ECM when it shouldn't. If you just slashed their damage from 5 per volley to 4, that basically would have fixed the problem while still allowing them to fire. But instead of doing anything logical, they did this.

I still think 1 minute is appropriate given the weight of the system. 3 tons plus ammo (6 rounds per ton). Just not worth it.
-Maybe, but 1 minute is a long time in a battle. If you're too harsh on something, people will stop using it, which is never my intent. Unlike everyone else, I don't want a few things to be good while everything else is trash. This is just something you'd have to experiment on to find a good number. Obviously though the NARC actually has to be shot, and hit, and weighs more, so it should be worth all the trouble. ECM however is only 1.5, always on, and fully automatic. Currently though the NARC does nothing vs ECM and is just a waste of weight. There's reasons why no one uses it. It's barely worth the trouble on its own and vs ECM, which is the 1 thing you'd want to use it against now; it does nothing.

You know, I'm not sure how that one works. Is it actually functioning, and what does it do?
-What does BAP do? Currently nothing if the enemy has ECM or is near one, thus you shouldn't bother using it. And as I've said, this is against what I would want or against how a well balanced game would have it. ECM is too good, BAP is too weak. If it was the other way around, I'd be equally disappointed.(Contrary to every tard on this forum believes) In reality they should both be useful, and if you're not going to nerf the first one down, then you should buff the second one up to par as a partial counter to its effects.

Edited by Bluten, 03 January 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Griffinhart, on 03 January 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

I think ECM is mostly ok, but there are a couple of tweaks that would make it better.

1. Match Maker should take ECM into account. There are too many matches I have seen where there are multiple ECM on one team, and zero on another.

2. If Tag doesn't counter ECM within 180M (I'm honestly not sure if it does or not), it should.

3. Narc should have a duration of at least 1 minute and (if it doesn't) counter ECM for that target. I don't think I have ever seen a Narc launcher in the wild because the duration of the beacons are so useless, especially given the weight of the weapon + ammo. This would make them usefull, and we will see more counters to ECM

If Narc had a 1 minute duration, it would be a death sentence for the victim, 90% of the time. Sure, they can use cover, but 1 minute narcs would be too much. 30 seconds is where I think the sweet spot is, but again, that' just, like, my opinion. Man.

[Tennex]

TAG needs to autotrack closest target in sight. Imagine two lagshield ravens trying to put TAG on eachother. Nonexistant ECMcounter

Edited by Tennex, 03 January 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

WolvesX, on 28 December 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

- Brings more strategy into the game.
- More tactic options.
- Balances stuff out.

I disagree with this part. (and frankly, most of your argument does, too.)

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Tag does need a redesign as well. It currently doesn't make much sense. You have to hold a button to keep it active, but there's no reason "not" to do this. There's no limited duration. It produces no heat. It's just on as long as you hold the button. If you're going to have it function this way, it may as well be a toggle, not a "hold down to channel indefinitely" weapon. What many people will soon start doing(if they aren't already), is putting the Tag in its own group, then placing an object on its keyboard hotkey so that it is always on. I mean, why not? Why would you "not" want to have this thing going all the time? There's no reason "not" to have it always going, thus you may as well have it a toggle or automatic in some way. If you don't want it always active, then something else should prevent this. It could have a duration with a recharge bar timer or slowly build heat while it's active. Its current design makes no sense, and that's also why it makes little sense to be pushed upon us as the only counter to ECM. I don't want to hold down this silly button down all day. What I'm going to do instead is place my folded up pocket knife over its weapon hotkey and let it be 24 7 automatic.

[Torqueware]

My rebuttal

[DocBach]

Bluten, on 03 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Tag does need a redesign as well. It currently doesn't make much sense. You have to hold a button to keep it active, but there's no reason "not" to do this. There's no limited duration. It produces no heat. It's just on as long as you hold the button. If you're going to have it function this way, it may as well be a toggle, not a "hold down to channel indefinitely" weapon. What many people will soon start doing(if they aren't already), is putting the Tag in its own group, then placing an object on its keyboard hotkey so that it is always on. I mean, why not? Why would you "not" want to have this thing going all the time? There's no reason "not" to have it always going, thus you may as well have it a toggle or automatic in some way. If you don't want it always active, then something else should prevent this. It could have a duration with a recharge bar timer or slowly build heat while it's active. Its current design makes no sense, and that's also why it makes little sense to be pushed upon us as the only counter to ECM. I don't want to hold down this silly button down all day. What I'm going to do instead is place my folded up pocket knife over its weapon hotkey and let it be 24 7 automatic.

I suppose the fact that TAG shoots a readily identifiable beam is a weakness you would face if you left it on the whole match, while trying to be sneaky with your ECM.

[Martini Henrie]

Still going? I like the 30 second Narc idea, that system sucks at the moment for sure. Have it work through ECM and it suddenly becomes a viable system. Tag works fine , especially with an Artemis mech, marching forward with a screen of LRMs is good fun.

The other ideas I'm not fussed about really. Oh, if you can force a mech out of line of fire, it allows the rest of your team to focus fire on someone else. Anything that disrupts your opponants is a good thing.

[pseudocoder]

Prat, on 03 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

When you obsolete EVERY light except for 2 variants, you've got a problem on your hands.

Solution: Every mech should be able to equip ECM.

PANZERBUNNY, on 03 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

When someone DOES manage to get a TAG lock on ECM mechs, they merely have to lower themselves to everyone else's playing standards and actually take cover.

You just proved that TAG counters ECM.

Griffinhart, on 03 January 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

1. Match Maker should take ECM into account. There are too many matches I have seen where there are multiple ECM on one team, and zero on another.

2. If Tag doesn't counter ECM within 180M (I'm honestly not sure if it does or not), it should.

3. Narc should have a duration of at least 1 minute and (if it doesn't) counter ECM for that target. I don't think I have ever seen a Narc launcher in the wild because the duration of the beacons are so useless, especially given the weight of the weapon + ammo. This would make them usefull, and we will see more counters to ECM

1. ECM takes up space and weight on your mech, replacing potential for direct combat equipment. There is no need to weight it any more than that within a team. To a more general point, can't design the matchmaker to auto-compose PUG teams based on any type of loadout, because then there would be endless bitching about being locked into the same composition all the time, or "the ECM guy always sucks", or "Noobs are always filling the assault slots" etc etc.

2. TAG allows missile lock regardless of ECM and/or range to target. (Edit: I should clarify by this I mean as long as you're within TAG range of 750m and not inside ECM bubble yourself, at which point C3 is cut off. That's still most of the effective range of LRM's. SSRMs are admittedly more adversely affected and something should probably be fixed with them.)

3. NARC should definitely be longer duration (Edit: and work outside LoS), but it should NOT counter ECM IMO since that is in direct contradiction of TT rules.

Edited by pseudocoder, 22 February 2013 - 09:47 AM.