3036 replies to this topic

[Duvanor]

Guys, stop this Null Signature BS. Null Signature masks thermal emissions. Press H in game and you will see Mechs with ECM shining in bright blue. Mechs with ECM don't become invisible just because you get no red traingle hovering above them. Maybe you can already play, but please, learn to use your eyes.

[Kaijin]

Duvanor, on 04 January 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Guys, stop this Null Signature BS. Null Signature masks thermal emissions. Press H in game and you will see Mechs with ECM shining in bright blue. Mechs with ECM don't become invisible just because you get no red traingle hovering above them. Maybe you can already play, but please, learn to use your eyes.

If I can't lock it, it's null signature. Thermal is visual.

[Joseph Mallan]

PANZERBUNNY, on 04 January 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Probably wouldn't be a problem if armour wasn't double. Lights wouldn't be these knights of invincibility charging into the enemy.

They would be scout mechs. The role they were designed for.

There is a story in the lore of a DCMS commander experimenting with the strategy of overwhelming force by using tons and tons and tons of lights.

Stinger and Valkyries I think.

Anyways. Long story short.

They got wrecked. Lights are just exceptionally vulnerable to even stray shots.

One company of Stingers and Wasps v one Atlas (IIRC) the Atlas needed minor repairs as I remember reading. Would a single Atlas survive 12 Commandos??? it shouldn't even on TT. But it was a cool story.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kaijin, on 04 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

If I can't lock it, it's null signature. Thermal is visual.

kaijin The NSS shunts your heat out your feet into the ground, Your Mechs thermal is supposed to be ambient so should be invisible to thermal scan. you could still get a target lock it was just harder to do. it also makes it "harder" to get a lock at longer ranges, not impossible. (TachOps Pg 336)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 January 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Codejack]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 January 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

kaijin The NSS shunts your heat out your feet into the ground, Your Mechs thermal is supposed to be ambient so should be invisible to thermal scan. you could still get a target lock it was just harder to do.

http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System

Quote

First appearing on the SLDF's EXT-4D Exterminator and the later Spector, while the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield masked their visual presence, the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions. While the system is engaged, the 'Mech is more difficult to track at anything other than short range, with the Beagle Active Probe and its unbranded Clan equivalent unable to locate a hidden unit with its null signature system engaged.

NSS partially hid the mech from thermal, but also hid it from radar. ECM never did that

Edited by Codejack, 04 January 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Duvanor]

Nope, it does'nt say radar there, cause you get no radar in TT At least not in the aircraft sense of it.

[Kaijin]

Codejack, on 04 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System



NSS partially hid the mech from thermal, but also hid it from radar. ECM never did that

quoted for emphasis:
"the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions"

[Duvanor]

And you need a NSS to cloak electronic emissions, because an ECM that disrupts targeting systems can't do that? Fine, NSS can cloak. Is that a reason for ECM to be unable to do a similar thing? I don't think so.

Edited by Duvanor, 04 January 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[Apoc1138]

Codejack, on 04 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System



NSS partially hid the mech from thermal, but also hid it from radar. ECM never did that

you stopped your quote early, if you include the full text it reads;

Quote

While not yet able to produce a bolt for bolt, circuit for circuit replication, with typical Capellan ingenuity House Liao has developed a stop-gap solution suitable for mass-production, the so-called Stealth Armor. Integrating the heat baffles and required components directly into specially designed armor plating, when linked with a Guardian ECM SuiteStealth Armor replicates its benefits (and disadvantages).

stealth armour ONLY masks heat signature, so if stealth + ECM = null sig, take off stealth armour (visual and heat vision masking) what you are left with is ECM... which is what we have in MWO

[Sayyid]

BDU Havoc, on 04 January 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

I don't know about the rest of you, but the ECM in the game works like it currently does, therefor it's 100% accurate to MWO's interpretation of ECM.

Take your TT rules and go play MW:Tactics. It's a turn based game where you can click and wait. You'll like it.

MW and MWO are based on the BT rule set. Those rules don't interpret very well over to a live-action, skill based simulation/arcade video game. Which is why some things have been tweaked, some have been changed, and others have been tossed out in favour of something better/different.

You should remove the MPBT:3025 from your sig with that attitude, because you obviously hated that game to say what you just said. MPBT followed the table top rules as best as you could in a simulated environment and they did a damned better job of a Battletech game then the current PGI MWO game, which is at best a spam fest of lasers and ballistics currently. Which is only marginally better than the spam of LRMs and Streaks a month ago.

Panzerbunny hit the nail on the head with the double armor problem but that is only part of the greater issue. As it stands now here is my take on the issues in game. In no paticular order.

-Double armor
Double armor was put in because the kids wanted longer fights, well this did and didnt help, it instead broke every weapon system in game forcing PGI to go back to the drawing boards and reballance every weapon in the game to make up for the increased armor to keep the "feel" correct. I understand the increased head armor which is easy enough to keep doubled for gameplay reasons but the whole mech it just breaks the game.

-ECM jamming everything beyond 180m.
This is completely backwards from the TT rules, the ECM should jam everything with in 180m but have no affect on anything beyond that unless it draws LOS through the jamming field. Which is currently giveing a 1.5ton piece of equipment way more power then what it did have in the TT or even in the fluff.

-Mech customization.
This is anti-Battletech, Battletech is not about customizing your mech to the situation but adapting your fighting style to the situation. A 'mech isnt a Lego construct that you can pop on or pop off parts as you wish, they are finely engineered weapons of warfare, much like the F22A Raptor or the F35 Lightning II, you cant just take a engine out of a Mig-29 and slap it into a F22 because they are roughly the same size just to make room for a larger bomb load. And that is EXACTLY what we have happening here.

-Removal of knock downs and colisions.
Yes knock downs were getting abused, but with the lag shield it was the easiest way to deal with light mechs that have more armor than assaults on the TT. So instead of fixing the issue they removed it. It would have been easier to take a que from the TT and add accidental charge rules damage. Its a simple rule, speed of mech/10 * the weight of mech/10 = damage done spread out over mech. So if a CN9-D moving 96kp/h hits another CN9-D moving 96kp/h the damage done to each mech will be 9.6*5=43. Which will be enough to keep most lights away from big mechs like the AS7 which would do 50 damage by lumbering into you. It will also give mechs that arent in game yet the CGR Charger its teeth back.

-Making the game in the 3050s.
If PGI had stuck with the original concept of the game and placed it in the Third Succession War, where there are no Clans, no "Lost Tech", nothing to make the game complicated just simple basic weapons with non-customizabled mechs. If the game was set in the original trailer of 3015 the game would probably be near complete at this point.



For those who havent seen it.

This is how I feel the game has gone wrong.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kaijin, on 04 January 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

quoted for emphasis:
"the Null Signature System cloaked their heat output and electronic emissions"

providing negatives to hit at longer ranges. Not block. So longer time to get a target lock the further away you are. Simulated by an additional +1(+3 total) to hit at Medium and +2 (+6 total) at long range.

[Kaijin]

Duvanor, on 04 January 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

And you need a NSS to cloak electronic emissions, because an ECM that disrupts targeting systems can't do that? Fine, NSS can cloak. Is that a reason for ECM to be unable to do a similar thing? I don't think so.

For only 1.5 tons and 2 crits, yes - Yes it is.

Joseph Mallan, on 04 January 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

providing negatives to hit at longer ranges. Not block. So longer time to get a target lock the further away you are. Simulated by an additional +1(+3 total) to hit at Medium and +2 (+6 total) at long range.

So what you're saying is the Guardian ECM is better than the NSS?

[Duvanor]

Sayyid: Customzing is "anti-Battletech"? Yeah, sure. That must be the reason for all the Mech customization and creation rules in my books.

[Havyek]

Sayyid, on 04 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

You should remove the MPBT:3025 from your sig with that attitude, because you obviously hated that game to say what you just said. MPBT followed the table top rules as best as you could in a simulated environment and they did a damned better job of a Battletech game then the current PGI MWO game, which is at best a spam fest of lasers and ballistics currently. Which is only marginally better than the spam of LRMs and Streaks a month ago.

Umm, huh?

How did MPBT:3025 maintain some TT purism that MWO has over looked? Because they didn't include a MechLab so you were forced to use stock variants?

They also didn't have BAP or ECM
You also started in a cheap light 'Mech and had to work your way up to an assault

I loved MPBT:3025. It was enjoyable and let me shoot big stompy robots. It also was click, click, play. There was no issue with this weapon is bad compared to this weapons because you were restricted to stock variants.
Guess what? Some of those variants were much better than others, so those were what were used.

Crying about this and that are OP is nothing new.

[Duvanor]

They had one thing MWO has not (yet). Gyro hits.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kaijin, on 04 January 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

For only 1.5 tons and 2 crits, yes - Yes it is.



So what you're saying is the Guardian ECM is better than the NSS?

I'm just quoting the rule books you make up yer own opinion. I never liked NSS much, Used in once in a blue moon, but was not impressed. ECM isn't NSS.

[Yokaiko]

Duvanor, on 04 January 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

They had one thing MWO has not (yet). Gyro hits.

Or sensor, or actuator hits.....both of which I would like to see.

[Sayyid]

Duvanor, on 04 January 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Sayyid: Customzing is "anti-Battletech"? Yeah, sure. That must be the reason for all the Mech customization and creation rules in my books.

If you read more than the rulebooks you would see that custom mechs are rarer than a modern fighter ace in a Pornstar convention. I can name a handful of custom mechs in the Battletech world.

Kai Allard-Liao's Yen Lo Wang
Takisha Kurita's Dragon which is actually a Grand Dragon and thus not custom.

Custom mechs were STUPID expensive and not common, here they are in every match, and are mostly 95% of the mechs in those matches.

BDU Havoc, on 04 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Umm, huh?

How did MPBT:3025 maintain some TT purism that MWO has over looked? Because they didn't include a MechLab so you were forced to use stock variants?

They also didn't have BAP or ECM
You also started in a cheap light 'Mech and had to work your way up to an assault

I loved MPBT:3025. It was enjoyable and let me shoot big stompy robots. It also was click, click, play. There was no issue with this weapon is bad compared to this weapons because you were restricted to stock variants.
Guess what? Some of those variants were much better than others, so those were what were used.

Crying about this and that are OP is nothing new.

The reason why 3025 didnt have those things is because... well wait for it......
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.
.
.
.
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IT WAS IN 3025!!!!!!


That progression system in game was good, but even when you unlocked heavies and assaults not everyone piloted them. But the weight limited drops and the mission selection types made playing the biggest heaviest thing impractical. I know I piloted a Blackjack all of the time, even when I could pilot and afford a Atlas. I knew people who only piloted Locusts and Javelins. But again there were missions not just drops that are nothing more than slug matches, even the new conquest is a joke.

[Duvanor]

There are not many custom mechs in the novels. Nevertheless customization is in the rules of the game and therefore not anti-BT. It is intendet.

[Kaspirikay]

but guys, ecm is completely balanced. you just need to learn by adaptin aka buying your own 3L.