164 replies to this topic

[Raidyr]

QuantumButler, on 06 December 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Direct fire, non lock on mechs can still shoot at ECM bro, what the hell are you smoking.

Oh no you have to use thermal vision to pick out targets at range or get close enough to lock on and the reticle flickers abit how horrifying.

My habit of turning on thermal at long range pays off!

[QuantumButler]

Raidyr, on 06 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

My habit of turning on thermal at long range pays off!

They even improved thermal so you can see terrain features with it easily again.

[F lan Ker]

S!

Using vision modes really has it's place now with ECM implemented, but also using the EyeBall Mk.1 is back

[Sevaradan]

ECM is fine, get used to it and l2p. (and a group helps too...)

Edited by Sevaradan, 06 December 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[wanderer]

Omigir, on 06 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Or employ ECM hunters. Mechs designed to go out and get mechs with ECM

Like.. the Jenner 7-F...

...which gets Streaked to death by the Raven-3L. It's been fun to watch the "dominant" light 'Mech getting reduced to burning wrecks in droves lately- the Raven outshoots the -F since it can use it's lasers AND missiles, and the Commando ECM variant can take on -D or -K versions with it's missiles and win now more often than not, since the Jenner doesn't get to return the favor.

[QuantumButler]

wanderer, on 06 December 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

...which gets Streaked to death by the Raven-3L. It's been fun to watch the "dominant" light 'Mech getting reduced to burning wrecks in droves lately- the Raven outshoots the -F since it can use it's lasers AND missiles, and the Commando ECM variant can take on -D or -K versions with it's missiles and win now more often than not, since the Jenner doesn't get to return the favor.

What this really shows is the need for knockdowns to return.

All the annoying little **** ECM lights would be really nicely countered if they could be bowled over.

[wanderer]

QuantumButler, on 06 December 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

What this really shows is the need for knockdowns to return.

All the annoying little **** ECM lights would be really nicely countered if they could be bowled over.

And I'll say this as well- what makes people think that ECM will be limited to lights and assaults only?

Mediums and heavies are a matter of time. Like AMS, ECM will start on a limited number of chassis while they see how we like it and propogate to more, rapidly. That's what happened before- the Atlas-K was the testbed for AMS, then it was an option on every 'Mech in the game. We will see ECM expanded to more units, and that needs to be addressed.

"You can ram light ECM to death" isn't going to solve the ECM pod in the bigger 'Mechs, nor is "kill the ECM 'Mech" when the eventual result will be enough chassis that can mount it as to make widespread if not near-universal use viable.

[Mavairo]

Theres this thing... called running more than one type of weapon on your mech.

You should you know try it some time.

It's not terribly difficult. Seriously.

Honestly the ones whining about this the most are the streak boaters.
Rather than you know spend a handful of bills and buy new toys to supplement their other toys or you know learn to aim they come on here and whine about ECM instead.

We even had a clown from BWC (allegedly) whining that his unsupported 2 LRM 20 founder cat was unable to do anything and that "ravens are able to just waltz up to me now". Seriously? If a raven, is able to just ''waltz'' up to your mech, chances are your team has alot more immediate issues than ECM.

Mainly, they are so ******** that they won't support you at all, nor are they apparently smart enough to take someone out that's in a light mech, who's not using cover to his advantage.

"but what about out flanking ravens mav!" the founder cat has never been a mech built for 2 LRM20s. Why? It only leaves you with 2 MLs to defend yourself with. Drop them down to LRM15s and put 2 LLs on instead. That's plenty enough juice to scare ravens away. Or you can do one better, and drop 2 tons of ammo from the lrm15s (after all to feed those LRM20s you have to have a Crap Ton of ammunition) and have 2 MLs with the 2 LLs. Or drop down to 2 Lrm10s and have 2 MLs and 2 LLs. the other cat that has 4 rockets and 2 energy? You have options. For those you can just have 2 MLs, and 2 SRM6s on there too.

Also? What on earth did you bloody do about Jenners coming to shank your mental crippled backside? Just stand there going "derp derp derp!" as you die? Or did you ask your team mates to wheel off and get the jenners off of you?

And for the 6 rocket boat? Here's a hint, don't max out on streaks. You were relying on a one trick pony build and apparently weren't smart enough to figure out the metagame just might, maybe Evolve? Seriously? SRMs are your friend.

ECM doesn't invalidate an ''entire playstyle'' it only invalidates people that were mental cripples from using it. Welcome to having a build finally that is like everyone else's build.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 December 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[mekabuser]

while it needs some work, Idnt think its that OP. You can still tag as a missle boat right? You can still visually target and dumbfire.
It makes in fighting a hell of a lot more fun. I was particularly enjoying it when Id see "low signal" u h oh, best circle round about to my mates, or proceed with caution.
I cant speak to 8 v8 premade games, but pugging is a bit more fun as long as the teams arent dead set for the base rush.
Even then , its not so bad as tactics are evolving to guard against the base rush, engage and then make a run if its viable.
Had fun last night even with performance issues.

Using trial awesome, just because 5 weapon groups is the way that ***** is designed to be fielded. Didnt overheat but once or twice and that includes dancing in the caldera.

Edited by mekabuser, 06 December 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[wanderer]

Mavairo, on 06 December 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Theres this thing... called running more than one type of weapon on your mech.

Should I start listing common single-type weapon 'Mech layouts here, or is it bad only if your weapon of choice gets hosed by ECM?

Clearly, the Jenner-F and Hunchback-P are absolutely HORRIBLE 'Mechs and a 1.5 ton laser shield should be put in to totally render them inert when in it's field of effect. Oh, and those Awesomes boating pulse lasers. Terribad. Maybe that Atlas-RS with the quad large lasers. It's time is nigh.

What, they aren't?

And that Gausscat. Obviously, there should be giant electromagnets that just bounce that rifle shot around like the big shiny pinball it is. Don't get too close, it might end up back in your cockpit instead.

Again, 1.5 tons. Gotta have it balanced with ECM. To be fair, it should work on Ultra AC's and such too or it's too narrow an application for the weight.

Now, have I been sarcastic enough, or have we made it abundantly clear that in MWO, boating a specifc weapon system shouldn't be a reason to have an easymode way to shut it down completely?

[Raven Starbinder]

If you going to have all Atlas DC's 8 man premades with ECM where is the fun of that in every match. Have all ECM mechs in a 8 man premade where is th fun in that for the rest of the 8 man premade groups community that is not all ECM. I personally use direct fire weapon mechs most of the time so I have no issue with that aspect of ECM. Until they actually make the weight class adjustments in the 8 man premades matches it is just stupidly lopsided.

[ReD3y3]

I really enjoy ECM.

I have played more the past 2 days than I have in months because of ECM and 8 man drops.

Our group went from 4 ppl on to 20+ last night just because of ECM and 8 man drops.

[Pierce Rossignol]

I'm throwing this in here again, but ECM finally makes the Atlas what it's supposed to be: the one mech that nobody wants to tangle with. Whether it's the D-DC sporting an ECM or even a trial K with an ECM-mounted sidekick, you can bring the full power of the biggest, most powerful mech in the game without losing half your armor and weapons to clicks of everyone's Left Mouse Button before you engage.

So now your 60-ton, one-trick-pony "this works every time heh heh" mech can't fight off a 100-ton mech boasting a planet-cracking array of weaponry face-to-face? Huh. Go figure.

Now you have do what you should've been doing all along to counter the Atlas: run like h*ll, and come back with several friends and a daring plan. If you don't have any friends, then I can't help you. Make some.

[ReD3y3]

Also,

Premades that go heavy. 6-7-8 D-DCs are counterd very easy and probably lose more often than not.

A good mix of D-DC, Ravens, Gauss platforms, and a medium here and there is the way to go.

Strangely enough the teams that know how to use LRMS in direct fire are the teams we have had the most trouble with. Even though we utilize ECM.

[Utnapishtim]

so sorry they broke your streak cat, maybe now you'll have to learn how to aim?

12 streak missiles coming out of one chassis has a HUGE advantage on ANY mech without ECM. as a light Mech' pilot, i welcome ECM with open mechanical arms.

[Mavairo]

wanderer, on 06 December 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Should I start listing common single-type weapon 'Mech layouts here, or is it bad only if your weapon of choice gets hosed by ECM?

Clearly, the Jenner-F and Hunchback-P are absolutely HORRIBLE 'Mechs and a 1.5 ton laser shield should be put in to totally render them inert when in it's field of effect. Oh, and those Awesomes boating pulse lasers. Terribad. Maybe that Atlas-RS with the quad large lasers. It's time is nigh.

What, they aren't?

And that Gausscat. Obviously, there should be giant electromagnets that just bounce that rifle shot around like the big shiny pinball it is. Don't get too close, it might end up back in your cockpit instead.

Again, 1.5 tons. Gotta have it balanced with ECM. To be fair, it should work on Ultra AC's and such too or it's too narrow an application for the weight.

Now, have I been sarcastic enough, or have we made it abundantly clear that in MWO, boating a specifc weapon system shouldn't be a reason to have an easymode way to shut it down completely?

I'm going to phrase this so even you can get it.
What do those mechs have working against them that missile systems do not?

You have to you know. Aim. You have to manage heat levels in order to use them properly. They are all limited to line of sight only.

Also, those Assault Builds? They are Terrible. But not because of some energy shield.

The Gauss Kitty? It needs a re adjustment, and everyone knows it anyway.

Missiles are easy mode in mechwarrior up until ECM came along. No matter how much you might think otherwise, it's not terribly difficult to ask your team mates "are they hitting?" or have them press R for you and keep a decent feed on the target.
they are a 0 risk and potential high reward weapon.

I've used LRMs, I've used Streaks. Quite frequently infact. They were bar none the easiest weapons in the entire game to use properly. Whenever I feel like just kind of riding around for half the match I'd field them. It was Boring.

Boating Missiles, (of just one type no less) should never have been considered a viable build.

You all knew ECM warfare was coming, or should have the moment the raven came along.

Lets also not forget, people can still paint targets via TAG outside of the bubble (something I do think needs to change is Tag should work bubble or not), LRMs still can find targets that aren't inside the bubble.

And frankly any pure LRM boat in particular, should have already had support against outflanking light mechs anyway.

Now streaks? the bar none best brawler in the game, you have the ''strongest'' argument of being negated. But really, did you honestly think the game wasn't going to change? Did you really think you'd get your auto aiming rockets of doom to work 100 percent of the time forever? Maybe you should put a pair of SRM6s on that streak boat and learn how to use them.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 December 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Bacilus]

TAG ftw

[wanderer]

Mavairo, on 06 December 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

I'm going to phrase this so even you can get it.
What do those mechs have working against them that missile systems do not?

You have to you know. Aim. You have to manage heat levels in order to use them properly. They are all limited to line of sight only.

Yet there is nothing that prevents you from firing them. ECM doesn't stop me from pointing four lasers at your cockpit and headshotting you, or running in circles nibbling you to death with 9 small lasers in that Hunchback.

ECM does prevent LRMs from firing in the manner they were designed to, and right now it completely negates Streak racks, who can't even fire big ol' shotgun blasts of LRMs like I can if ECM is a problem.

Quote

Missiles are easy mode in mechwarrior up until ECM came along. No matter how much you might think otherwise, it's not terribly difficult to ask your team mates "are they hitting?" or have them press R for you and keep a decent feed on the target.
they are a 0 risk and potential high reward weapon.

Zero risk if your team-mate is tanking the damage and nobody has noticed you exist, perhaps- for you. It's plenty of risk for the TEAM, as your spotters are getting shot up. Heck, even with direct fire weapons you can use your team as a shield- I do it all the time in my -4X 'Phract. Someone's taking the risk for you if you're firing indirect- actually, they're getting it twice as bad, because if you're in IDF mode, everyone's aiming at them and nobody's splitting fire. We all know the value of focused fire, right?

As for "high reward"- so is darn near every useful weapon in the game. I can one-shot a light with my energy boats, blow the leg off a medium with my dual AC/20's, watch an Atlas go up in fireworks because I just dumped six SRM 6's into his back armor. All of the latter I can actually aim, of course. LRMs just randomly chew up the target across the entire 'Mech, meaning you bludgeon the thing to death with missiles. Nothing like having a clear shot on someone's back and knowing that at the range you're at, all you can do is sprinkle hits over his backside until something gives when a nice Gauss rifle would have cracked his spine in two shots. LRMs are not precision. They both gain and lose from the lack of aim requirements- while it's easier to hit, it is impossible to hit what you desire- you take what you get.

With ECM as it is, missiles went from "easier to hit" to "hits worse than any weapon in the game" or "can't even fire". This is overkill at it's finest.

Edited by wanderer, 06 December 2012 - 08:20 AM.

[RoboticRooster]

Nothing to see here folks, just another crybaby who can't handle change.

[Mavairo]

You can blind fire LRMs as if they were Rockets at any target over their minimum range, for starters.
Secondly, there is again TAG to be delivered by others in the furball/mech blob. By the way TAG DOES work, if it's fired outside the bubble, infact it's range is similar to a LL's. Someone else can use tag outside of 180 meters onto a target. and whammo. It's like ECM doesn't work or something then!

There is also nothing really stopping you as a mech from using TAG yourself, and firing from 300 to 450 meters out as direct fire weapons, if no one else is going to carry TAG.

Their risk is greater than yours. But the gains they get are worth every bit of that risk with the added bonus of you not having to soak damage too. Actually the gains are higher than the Risk involved is.

LRMs are Low Risk Weapons. There are weapon systems in the game presently that help LRM guys who can't utilize their weapons due to ECM.

One of those weapon systems is about to actually get a buff. (probably so that it can work inside the bubble)
God forbid, your team actually have to think about it's weapon composition instead of. "hey LRM guy, just spam the button when we get you a target"

Campaigning to nerf ECM, when TAG is about to be buffed is like asking for a third ******. It's completely useless because you have 0 idea of how the coming change is going to affect what we already have.

Hell you have not even adjusted to what we have now fully yet.

And those weapons are much higher Risk weapons to use for the rewards they can potentially give you. Surely you can some how manage to see how, being directly exposed to enemy fire should net you more rewards as a player than a guy sitting 700 meters away throwing zoomy rockets into a furball.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 December 2012 - 08:29 AM.