164 replies to this topic

[Kremator1968]

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Dry your eyes ! (oh and L2P while you are at it!)

Nothing wrong with ECM as it is presently.

[Pugastrius]

Quote

How is an AOE Null Signature System with no downsides not OP?

Several Things have happened since the ECM was added:
1) You can identify people who has absolutely no idea what game balance is.
2) You can identify people that love being OP
3) You can identify people that lack the ability to make solid arguments.

Quite simply: No single piece of equipment should
1) "Always" go on every mech that has the ability to do so.
2) Have you vastly prefer one variant of a mech vs. another.

[Timelordwho]

Kremator1968, on 07 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

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Dry your eyes ! (oh and L2P while you are at it!)

Nothing wrong with ECM as it is presently.

ECM is as balanced as Artemis on launch.

[Mechsniper]

ECM should only Jam LRMS out to a point, such as a few hundred meters. Artemis should without a doubt negate it in Line of site situations. This would go a long way toward rebalancing the game. The ECM is way OP IMHO. It is doing more than it should.

[Streeter]

Kremator1968, on 07 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

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Dry your eyes ! (oh and L2P while you are at it!)

Nothing wrong with ECM as it is presently.

when something is OP I do what any sensible person would do, use it and punish enough of the community so that something gets done about it.

worked for me and streak cats and it sure is working for me and my raven LOLs. Looking forward to seeing you in game

[Eltyr]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

How is an AOE Null Signature System with no downsides not OP?

Good game balance...balances things. Everything should have a downside.

Downside of LRMs? Can't be used at short range. The devs decided that wasn't enough, so they added in a warning message to make it easier for people to take cover.

Downside of ECM is supposed to be its short range. But instead, it is effective at both short and long range.

A device cannot jam and cloak simultaneously. The two are opposites.



See, here's the difference: You are taking ECM's side because you like it.

I am more concerned with game balance as a whole. Since you aren't bothering to discuss balance, you won't change my mind.

Jamming and cloaking are not at all opposites. Making your device not work is a way of cloaking. Jamming is a form of making your device not work correctly. They are, in fact, close cousins, and both legitimately fall under the title of ECM. If I break your sensors, you can't detect me, but know something is up (like it is in this game). (See, High Energy Radio Frequency). If I jam your target relay system, you can't rely on anyone else's sensors either. I would expect both concepts to be employed in any good ECM suite.

[nuttycide]

Look at how Ecms work in game and how their effects would listed in the Patch notes, I'd had assumed, that nothing could target the mech that had Ecm equipped with in the 180m's that was listed in the Patch notes. But in the game, the target option for certain weapons, has been completely taken out, even if they are out of the 180m range. That is what is making Ecms OP. If one is outside the jamming range, then they should be able to target it, as long as they have LOS or a friendly does, but outside of the 180m range. Ecm should be seen more for close combat usage, not long range. Right now it is simply displaces 2 weapon groups completely. Not only that, but I haven't really seen any drawbacks of taking Ecms, beside the chance of facing someone else with it, that would disrupt yours. Also Tag is not a good way to counter Ecms, simply it's not easy keeping that laser on someone for more then 2-3 seconds.

These are just my thoughts on Ecms. I don't expect people to agree with them at all. But I do agree with somethings that the OP had mention. Thats all.

Edit for grammerish.

Edited by nuttycide, 07 December 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[Streeter]

nuttycide, on 07 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Look at how Ecms work in game and how their effects would listed in the Patch notes, I'd had assumed, that nothing could target the mech that had Ecm equipped with in the 180m's that was listed in the Patch notes. But in the game, the target option for certain weapons, has been completely taken out, even if they are out of the 180m range. That is what is making Ecms OP. If one is outside the jamming range, then they should be able to target it, as long as they have LOS or a friendly does, but outside of the 180m range. Ecm should be seen more for close combat usage, not long range. Right now it is simply displaces 2 weapon groups completely. Not only that, but I haven't really seen any drawbacks of taking Ecms, beside the chance of facing someone else with it, that would disrupt yours. Also Tag is not a good way to counter Ecms, simply it's not easy keeping that laser on someone for more then 2-3 seconds.

These are just my thoughts on Ecms. I don't expect people to agree with them at all. But I do agree with somethings that the OP had mention. Thats all.

Edit for grammerish.

no you read that wrong, I can run up next to (180m away actually!) an LRM boat or cheese cat and make them totally useless at targeting ANY target Trollololol.

but hey Learn to Play is what they say

[Morgan Wolf]

I feel that ECM ECCM is needed but it also should be well blanced for now this is just a bandaid on the real issue as the OP has stated. If anything there should be a counter for ECM like a emp device that disrupts it. Right now there are two types of groups that run ECM and those that don't, they go all in heavy fire power. Here is my issue with ECM for 1.5 tons it ruins sevrial systems . LRMs are way harder then they need to be to use and should recive a buff , two ssrms are now a bit harder to use but doable, NARC and AMS complete waste of devloper time. My point is this don't release something that is so powerful that it counters 3 to 4 systems at once.
For you people stating that it is blanced it is not. You L2P or die fans out there it takes the same amount of skill then missle locks or less because you don't have to wait for the lock on .So is there some substance to arguments that missles were OP sure and they got blanced , but for some of you that was not enough... some of you want them removed from the game. Thats just to much and going to far. Mechwarrior has missle platforms their here to stay .I think its great we see mech's that are capable of useing two gaus or 6 ssrms or 2 AC 20 or 4 PPCs. The last thing this game needs is one player telling another what he can can not do with his load out because he feels he can't beat it. What some of you don't understand is your not here to play the game not yet... your here to help fix it before release. We as founders paid for this privlage to test this game to try it out and get the perks upon realse but in truth we paid to test this game . We as beta testers have a lot of work to do on this game a lot. As many have said before me Mechwarrior is a thinking man's game.. you have to blance all the elements against one another , missles , direct fire weapons.. indirect fire weapons , ECM and AMS, NARC TAG plus so much more.

[FrostPaw]

Personally I think ECM should have a Jamming range on enemy mechs which requires the mech with ECM to stay within range of the target they want to Jam. It shouldn't have any ability to protect friendly mechs in any other way, it's ability to protect the carrier from missiles is already a great advantage.

In short...

ECM - Prevents lock on of user, Jams enemies within range of user.

This would make ECM a pro active tool, you get personal protection from targeting but you have to physically close with the enemy in order to jam them from firing on your team mates.

I would also set Narc up as the LRM counter to ECM, get hit with a Narc while equipped with ECM means you're lit up like a christmas tree to all lrm using enemies and no longer have immunity for the duraction of the Narc beacon.

I think the role of ECM should be to protect the user so that they themselves may close on the kind of enemy that would destroy them if they were detected...namely lrm or streak boats. Then when close enough, ECM would counter their enemies ability to fire on ECM users allies.

Edited by FrostPaw, 07 December 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Does ECM make bullets hit harder? No.
Does ECM make bullets hit softer? No.

Please stop acting like Lasers/PPCs/Autocannons/Gauss Rifles/and SRMs somehow were invalidated by ECM. Non-ECM mechs work just fine and there is little point in running 4+ ECM mechs when only one is required to jam an enemy. Multiple ECM is only needed for multiple counters and at that point you could just kill an ECM mech faster than try to coordinate toggling counter mode.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 07 December 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Smeghead87]

Tilon, on 07 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

ECM, ton for ton, is by far the most powerful equipment in the game right now.

Are we ignoring the fact that all our mechs are basically equipped with C3 for no weight and no criticals then?

Edited by Smeghead87, 07 December 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Smeghead87, on 07 December 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Are we ignoring the fact that all our mechs are basically equipped with C3 for no weight and no criticals then?

Basically - yes.

[Psikez]

Smeghead87, on 07 December 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Are we ignoring the fact that all our mechs are basically equipped with C3 for no weight and no criticals then?

Yes

[nuttycide]

Streeter, on 07 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

no you read that wrong, I can run up next to (180m away actually!) an LRM boat or cheese cat and make them totally useless at targeting ANY target Trollololol.

but hey Learn to Play is what they say

Fast mechs have been doing that to most lrms boats since CB, not much of a difference when you think of it that way. Ecm just has alot of things it can do with no real drawbacks. L2P doesn't always mean the game is balanced, it's just people who don't want certain weapons or items to change so they can continue to troll people. Most expect people to play their way and no other way. So right now while those who wish to us some kind of support like LRMs are screwed, those who wish to brawl will continue using Ecms as the current Lrm or support sheild.

If you disagree with this, then say so, but give some extra reasons why.

[Streeter]

Smeghead87, on 07 December 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Are we ignoring the fact that all our mechs are basically equipped with C3 for no weight and no criticals then?

I might be being very short sighted here but EVERY mech has this so there is no advantage/balancing issue?

[TruePoindexter]

Streeter, on 07 December 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

I might be being very short sighted here but EVERY mech has this so there is no advantage/balancing issue?

The entire point of C3 in TT was to share targeting information with your lancemates. This improves hit rates but requires everyone to have at least a C3 Slave and one mech to carry a very large C3 Master or alternatively everyone carries a moderately heavy C3i Computer.

In MWO you automatically share your targeting information with your entire team instead of just a lance for no weight/space at all - it's actually better than normal C3.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 07 December 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Streeter]

nuttycide, on 07 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Fast mechs have been doing that to most lrms boats since CB, not much of a difference when you think of it that way. Ecm just has alot of things it can do with no real drawbacks. L2P doesn't always mean the game is balanced, it's just people who don't want certain weapons or items to change so they can continue to troll people. Most expect people to play their way and no other way. So right now while those who wish to us some kind of support like LRMs are screwed, those who wish to brawl will continue using Ecms as the current Lrm or support sheild.

If you disagree with this, then say so, but give some extra reasons why.

well I think there is a slight different between having to shoot and harass an LRM boat and just be with in 180 meters of it. Also not sure if you have played a light before but having the tables completely reversed on streaks which was the best defence against lights is also pretty huge. Then we get the invisibilty cloak not just for my mech but all friendlies in a 180meter radius. You already know all the benefits of ECM, if you think its balanced then it just comes down to a "Yes it is", "no its not" argument. Its been said hundreds of times already in many threads.

I dont mind so much the game change its caused and am kind of happy that the game is sort of fresh again, but for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that can only be mounted in a few different mechs its instantly made many other variants and weapons systems almost useless.

Just talk to anyone trying to level up the non ECM Ravens and see how awesome they think they are.

I dont think making it available to all is the answer, I just think the properties the ECM has now are not well balanced.

[Horned Bull]

Does manual aim make you a second class citizen? I'm afraid you have to refine your aiming skills rather than just click right mouse button.

Light mech are prone to go down just after taking few AC rounds/SRM rockets to the face.

[Streeter]

TruePoindexter, on 07 December 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

The entire point of C3 in TT was to share targeting information with your lancemates. This improves hit rates but requires everyone to have at least a C3 Slave and one mech to carry a very large C3 Master or alternatively everyone carries a moderately heavy C3i Computer.

In MWO you automatically share your targeting information with your entire team instead of just a lance for no weight/space at all - it's actually better than normal C3.

I realise that, but unlike ECM, all mechs already have this. Balance wise no one is put out. am I missing something here?