72 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

Just to put this out there, ironic as it is to have to say this to the "streaks take no skill" crowd, but if you were good at this game before ECM, you are probably good at this game after ECM.

There are two exceptions:

1) New players who can't afford an ECM mech and/or don't run in premades where they can count on having ally ECM, as well as the general inexperience in dealing with it. This solves itself, though, to an extent...

2) People who were taking advantage of weapon systems that were unbalanced. This may have included streakcats. It may not. But it absolutely includes people who are currently finding themselves much "better" at the game just because ECM came out.

Guess what? That means that you used to suck at countering basic weapons of the game, and are only "better" because the game has effectively (and probably temporarily) diminished those weapons' capabilities.

If you thought streaks were bad, wait until you see Clan tech! If you couldn't counter a one trick pony like a streakcat, you are going to be absolutely hopeless against Clan LRMs.

Enjoy your feast today, for tomorrow will bring famine.

[OVBlueGhost]

Pre patch I ran a laser jenner, laser hunch and 2xlrm15 + 4xStreak A1.

Post patch I'm running a laser hunch, SRM 36 A1, and have a shiny new ECM atlas. Occasionally I'm using the laser jenner when I have other lights to run with.

Pre-patch my damage numbers were between 600-1100 in good games.
Post-patch my damage numbers are between 600-1100 in good games, however I have fallen in love with the splatapault

I think ECM needs to be toned down because it's reduced weapon diversity, streaks do however need a nerf in a brawl vs heavies, making them occasionally hit legs (enjoy trying to chew through an atlas' leg armour) would do, it has the added benefit of making them more deadly to lights, a heavy which is 100% dedicated to killing lights should annihilate them inside 270 range, thats fine.

[GalaxyBluestar]

i never used streaks ever i only used lrm once to fill a mech tree how awfull it is to own an awesome 8r right now. it's been retro fitted with 4 srm6 which turns it into a brawling shotgun, simply because that's the ONLY way to use this varient now. ECM problems have nothing to do with streak cats they're still out their finding the one mech who can't run under mummies little bubble in time. all it's done is nerfed the radar so badly that its not worth using and longrange support roles have all but dissapeared. yep i'm forced to brawl now be like everyone else. i'm bored so bored.

btw damage doesn't mean much these days i can run into some one and button mash my way to 500 damage without even scoreing a kill. it's really meaningless.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 December 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Codejack]

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

i never used streaks ever i only used lrm once to fill a mech tree how awfull it is to own an awesome 8r right now. it's been retro fitted with 4 srm6 which turns it into a brawling shotgun, simply because that's the ONLY way to use this varient now.

I've been playing around with a TAG on my C4 Catapult, but keeping fast lights painted is about impossible, and keeping Atlases painted is suicide.

[Screech]

Do you drink a red or a white wine with Streakcat tears?

[Codejack]

Screech, on 07 December 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Do you drink a red or a white wine with Streakcat tears?

I wouldn't know, mine doesn't cry.

[Freeride Forever]

OVBlueGhost, on 07 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

splatapault.

Love it.

[Belkor]

Just won another match without ECM on my team while the enemy team had ECM. I don't see any glaring issues with ECM at all. ECMs have been an insignificant factor in deciding the outcome of my battles.

[Zylo]

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I wouldn't know, mine doesn't cry.

From the number of posts you make complaining about ECM I find this hard to believe.

Of course it could just be the pilot and not the A1 doing the crying...

Edited by Zylo, 07 December 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[Demoned]

Screech, on 07 December 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Do you drink a red or a white wine with Streakcat tears?

would you like some cheese with your wine

[Vermaxx]

I propose the people who DON'T THINK ECM is a major factor just stop posting about how insignificant it is, unless they are running 8mans and have proof they are regularly downing coordinated ECM exploitive teams.

That way we can start to get a semblance of whether the average forum goer sees ECM as a problem, or not. Clearly a lot of you don't think anything in this game is a problem, given the number of brotologists who post in everything about how insignificant they are.

Also, damn codejack. Are you going to start ECM threads until they give you an Oscar? What is this now, six?

[Codejack]

Vermaxx, on 07 December 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Also, damn codejack. Are you going to start ECM threads until they give you an Oscar? What is this now, six?

Well, no one is stopping the "can't-figure-out-how-streakcats-work" crowd from going into every ECM thread and posting a dozen times about how they will go on killing sprees if ECM is changed even a little bit

[GalaxyBluestar]

i've usually stated that ecm itself isn't such a bad thing it's a good idea what i don't like is that it's encouraged people to be brawlers and stealth cappers only and games have become sameme and dull. longrange fights don't happen almost efer now and i miss that aspect dearly when the lag comes in. lrms on mass caused lag too which is another reason why i hated using them and enjoyed sniping the campers or flanking if it needed to happen but now flanking means sneaking past to cap cause you're all so involved in your face shreading bouts. capped twice crossing open ground without a hitch is boring and now saddly easy to do.

i wouldn't for a moment say streaks are good lay off them. no way they are OP for one significant reason. the streak cat had no drawbacks simply cause you can't run away from them there was no counter cause the maps don't favor the outrange tactic/ longrange weapons. just caustic valley was suitable for that. but mainly they can move and secure hits with so much power without the target being able to take cover and lose contact {like lrms} so they needed a counter but ecm has effectted not just weapon systems but minds of so many players. like the jenner lagshield that became a bandwagon which has lead to the overuse of streakcats in the first place. all i'm saying is the variety of builds and gameplay isn't as rich as it once was and we're poorer for it.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 December 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Codejack]

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 December 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

i wouldn't for a moment say streaks are good lay off them. no way they are OP for one significant reason. the streak cat had no drawbacks simply cause you can't run away from them

Why not?

[Belkor]

Vermaxx, on 07 December 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I propose the people who DON'T THINK ECM is a major factor just stop posting about how insignificant it is, unless they are running 8mans and have proof they are regularly downing coordinated ECM exploitive teams.

That way we can start to get a semblance of whether the average forum goer sees ECM as a problem, or not. Clearly a lot of you don't think anything in this game is a problem, given the number of brotologists who post in everything about how insignificant they are.

Also, damn codejack. Are you going to start ECM threads until they give you an Oscar? What is this now, six?

Shut out genuine opinions of players just because it doesn't match your own views? Not going to happen. As per my experience, ECMs are truly an insignificant factor in my battles. Sorry but relying solely on pure auto lock-on builds as a crutch is no longer viable. Perhaps try creating a more versatile build?

[Vermaxx]

Streak cats either did an average alpha strike, or a low chain dps. Their only saving graces were the nonexistent spread and the shake/smoke. They partially fixed the spread - they need to do more there and MAKE missiles hit legs and arms regardless of how close you were and what angle you were firing from.

The next thing they NEED to do is look at shake/smoke. With those three things adjusted, SSRM would have been a lot less impressive as a boat system. They would still have their place, and that place would be in a team sanding off armor like a short range LRM more resistant to AMS.

As it stands with ECM, which probably won't change, when they add in all the WEAPON SPECIFIC NARFS, SSRM becomes less useful as even a secondary or even backup weapon. With the way missiles work in MWO, what with cone fire and distance affecting number of missiles hitting, there is very little reason to take streaks even with their weight savings and lower heat.

In short, SSRM (and LRM) became a lot less viable as standalone weapons. Yes, they have their place in teams and 'this is a team game.' Community Warfare is probably going to be a series of lobbies for battle planets, and from there games will either appear as open matches with rolling drop timers or spawn similar to how they do now. Either way, PUGs will still make up a huge portion of the player base and chances are there won't be a 'Premade only' queue anymore. If the game is balanced only around functioning as a dedicated team, new people will suffer. Certain weapons will be liabilities for new people.

PGI keeps picking heavy-handed means to achieve balance. Artemis needed work, but it didn't need a larger base spread on LRM, lower LRM damage, longer reload timers, and the total loss of the homing SRM effect. At this point Artemis is only slightly better than base LRM used to be, but it costs you 900k and triples ammo fees. The heat boosts to the laser series to 'prevent boating,' and the modification of DHS only mean that mainstay weapons are harder to mount in groups, and people cannot get the heat dissipation they were planning FOR MONTHS based on PGI's promise that DHS would 'solve a lot of the heat problems.'

[Vermaxx]

Belkor, on 07 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Shut out genuine opinions of players just because it doesn't match your own views? Not going to happen. As per my experience, ECMs are truly an insignificant factor in my battles. Sorry but relying solely on pure auto lock-on builds as a crutch is no longer viable. Perhaps try creating a more versatile build?

Your opnion is assumed based on a lack of posting. If a thread starts, with only 10 participants, that is a clear indication of how insignificant the problem is.

You coming in, with less than 150 posts (yes, it is elitist, but suggests either you never participate in discussions or just got here) talking in generalizations about how x y z is not a significant threat, are not very productive.

Tell us if you are doing 8s or 4s, what composition you use, and a general outlay of tactics. If you are going to show up and be dismissive of the entire issue, then give us some real things to show codejack.

I'm not his buddy, and I don't necessarily think ECM is as game breaking as he does. I do think it was too much on invalidating two completely viable playstyles - short range lock missiles and long range fire support. BOTH BUILDS require actual participation as a player. I have run both, and I have seen how far you get rushing in like a douche or spamming LRM without bothering to verify the lock will last and terrain is not blocking.

I think ECM as is, tells players that PGI thinks that LRM and SSRM should only be used in teams by skilled people. That means they WILL ONLY BE USED IN TEAMS, BY HIGHLY SKILLED PEOPLE, and the sods fighting AGAINST it will often find themselves at a severe disadvantage.

[Artifex 28]

I have been running Raven 3L (elite, XL295) with ECM since it came out.

ECM sure feels strong and I think it requires some changes. Although I haven't seen any statistical differences in matches, I still think it requires turning.

I absolutely hated the "no skill streakcats" pre-ECM, but I think the streaks are now hit too hard by the ECM. Yes, you can counter it, but it's still hit/miss -mechanics instead of a ...less binary approach.

To address that, my suggestions are following:

- Allow locking target who is carrying the ECM, but
- Increase lock time by 25-75% vs targets under effect of ECM. The larger the target, the less the increase.
- Double that effect on the target that is CARRYING the ECM

Edited by Artifex 28, 07 December 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[Belkor]

Vermaxx, on 07 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Your opnion is assumed based on a lack of posting. If a thread starts, with only 10 participants, that is a clear indication of how insignificant the problem is.

You coming in, with less than 150 posts (yes, it is elitist, but suggests either you never participate in discussions or just got here) talking in generalizations about how x y z is not a significant threat, are not very productive.

Tell us if you are doing 8s or 4s, what composition you use, and a general outlay of tactics. If you are going to show up and be dismissive of the entire issue, then give us some real things to show codejack.

I'm not his buddy, and I don't necessarily think ECM is as game breaking as he does. I do think it was too much on invalidating two completely viable playstyles - short range lock missiles and long range fire support. BOTH BUILDS require actual participation as a player. I have run both, and I have seen how far you get rushing in like a douche or spamming LRM without bothering to verify the lock will last and terrain is not blocking.

I think ECM as is, tells players that PGI thinks that LRM and SSRM should only be used in teams by skilled people. That means they WILL ONLY BE USED IN TEAMS, BY HIGHLY SKILLED PEOPLE, and the sods fighting AGAINST it will often find themselves at a severe disadvantage.

Alright there Mr. Fascist. You do realize people can play the game a lot without ever engaging in the forums right? I even question your ability to be an 'elitist'. How about a screenshot of your current stats and/or screenshot of your best battle scoreboard. And look at that, I just won another battle when my team had no ECM and the enemy team did.

ECM only affects the lame cheese builds that consisted solely of pure auto lock-ons. ECMs are promoting diversification to more versatile builds which is a huge plus.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Codejack, on 07 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Why not?

because the missle itself can outrun anything you'd have to be in a pretty fast mech to get around the corner and avoid being hit after the streak cat fired at you. infact it's funny that jenners went so fast that the missle made circles around the mech itself in complete confusion perhaps the only time you could get away from it. everytime i found a streak cat come around the corner i hoped either he was weak enough for my erlasers to take him or that someone else would distract him cause in an awesome with 80 ct front armour points i'd be dead within 20seconds. other than that it was pretty much game over. seriously ssrm 16 shouldn't be feared more in a close range battle than twin ac20's. it was knowing you could do nothing to escape from being hit. it freaked out everyone including the twin ac20 cats who i saw 3 weeks ago and thought oh boy wait till everyone exploits that build but know it was the streak cat the mech you'd have to gang up on or spot before it had a chance of reaching you or you were toast. i agree that you need no lock on skill with streaks cause your lock on isn't going to be disturbed by cover like with lrms and you can certainly hold it as it's in your face as you chase them down. at least with srm boats you have some aiming to do to make the most of your cluster shot.

Belkor, on 07 December 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Alright there Mr. Fascist. You do realize people can play the game a lot without ever engaging in the forums right? I even question your ability to be an 'elitist'. How about a screenshot of your current stats and/or screenshot of your best battle scoreboard. And look at that, I just won another battle when my team had no ECM and the enemy team did.

ECM only affects the lame cheese builds that consisted solely of pure auto lock-ons. ECMs are promoting diversification to more versatile builds which is a huge plus.

and your evidence is? i see laser boats everywhere and auto cannons thats it zip. i don't have to worry about missle lock ons and taking tactfull cover.IT NEVER HAPPENS! snipers they're flanked cause everyones a fast striker or brawler now.

{think about a crazy shout out wearhouse advert whilst reading this ;P}

it's the massive MWO clearout sale! gauss cannons, ppcs lrms streaks have all got to go! gauss explosions are absolutely MAD LRM effectiveness has been MASSIVELY REDUCED. Streaks have got to go, snipers GONE fire support GONE, hurry because the scouting can't LAST. so come on down to MWO sell out to CoD Brawlers because tactical gameplay can't possibly LAST.

seriously so much has been made unviable and ineffieceint it just aint funny.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 December 2012 - 10:39 PM.