211 replies to this topic

[Vexgrave Lars]

FYI in case anyone invested in a weapons config.


Now that I've looked at possible matches for these.. except for a few.. WHY.. would you? Particularly the lights are just terrible, why would you sacrifice a Commando capabilities for a Wasp's load out? or an Ostscout? Bleh!

All that doesn't change really until you get tot he heavies where variation grows due to the weight and number of hardpoints. Like the Warhammer (HV) and Battlemaster (AS) which have a lot of energy.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 16 May 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Major Tom, on 16 May 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

I am glad we are seeing eye-to-eye.
I do not want the old mechs bastardized with new artwork.
As long as you are changing the images of the unseen mechs, just keep on going and change the name as too.

the differences between us: I'm attached to the image of the original mechs, you are attached to the loadout.
I have no complaint against PGI making a Kriegstein70 ton with 2 ppc, srm6, 2 md, 2 sm, 2 mg. using new artwork, but don't polish a **** and call it a Warhammer, I know what a warhammer looks like.

In this vein, if the reseen are really that much of an issue, I'd be okay with reviving Age of War 'Mechs to fill those loadouts. Example:

Warhammer. Nope, we're not going to do it for XYZ reason.

Okay, so let's futz with things a little. Take the Battleaxe, say it never ceased development, bump it up to 70 tons and give it the same stats as the Warhammer. The Warhammer never happened. Fixed.


Or take the Marauder. Take the Hector, say it never ceased development, bump it to 75 tons and give it the same stats as the Marauder. The Marauder never happened. Fixed.


Given the choice between this and the reseen, I'll take the reseen of course. Zero impact on canon. But given the choice between leaving huge holes in the heavy lineup and changing the canon a little? It hurts me to say it, but I'll take changing the canon a little. Not having common heavies actually impacts my perception of the correctness of the game than re-named classics.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Major Tom, on 16 May 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

I am glad we are seeing eye-to-eye.
I do not want the old mechs bastardized with new artwork.
As long as you are changing the images of the unseen mechs, just keep on going and change the name as too.

the differences between us: I'm attached to the image of the original mechs, you are attached to the loadout.
I have no complaint against PGI making a Kriegstein70 ton with 2 ppc, srm6, 2 md, 2 sm, 2 mg. using new artwork, but don't polish a **** and call it a Warhammer, I know what a warhammer looks like.

Said it before.. I'll say it again.. Welcome to MWO.. the new canon, whether we like it or not.

Ya know Tom, the difference though is this, In the Lab I can change things around and make a mech do what I want. You can't change the style of a chassis (visually). Infinitely the rigidity of maintaining canon art argument is what keeps these mech out of the game.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 16 May 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Thorolf Kylesson]

Gigaton, on 15 May 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

As William Petersen said, the original artwork (the unseen) are not legal, but the reseen are. The problem is that these things can change if Harmony and Catalyst do another round, which would affect MW:O too. So while they are legal now, I'm not sure I'd consider them entirely safe territory.

But barring that, I rather like some of the reseen. Like the Phoenix Hawk and the Marauder.

Actually, as long as there is a 20% difference in the are or design there is no copy right infringment.

[Kenyon Burguess]

i would love to have all those mechs in the game in one form or another. but if they dont, it wont kill the game for me.

[Riogar Daylighter]

Just for nostalgia I would love to pilot a Wasp.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I know, the game will be great with or without them, but everytime I see someone say "Alas, I will never see my Marauder because it's Unseen" I will link them to this page.

[Gigaton]

Thorolf Kylesson, on 16 May 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Actually, as long as there is a 20% difference in the are or design there is no copy right infringment.

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds rather... ambiguous?

[Storm McIntyre]

Vexgrave Lars, on 16 May 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Storm,

I get the sense the decision was made long ago, I cannot fathom a legal issue that would prevent PGI from generating an announcement to stave off the prolific guess-work of the boards. If such an announcement were made, that indeed, they were bound by some legal context, I would endeavor to say, even more ignorant jaw- slacked posts (esoterically mine included) would result.

My interest is informational more so than anything else. i am terrible about facts, I hate illusion and allusiveness, its just my nature.

Vex,

Having thought about it some more, I concede that you could very well be correct. While I will not profess to be an expert on any of PGI's legal circumstances, I, too, am at a loss to explain any hesitation on their part from a legal standpoint. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, the reseen are legal. And Harmony Gold is not engaged in any legal action against PGI regarding the unseen. I don't want PGI to come out and tell us which of the unseen/reseen we are going to see in game. Like you, I would just like to know whether or not this group will be included/considered.

From there, I can and will engage in such wild speculation, it will make a Combine Courtesan blush....

[Vexgrave Lars]

Storm McIntyre, on 16 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Vex,

Having thought about it some more, I concede that you could very well be correct. While I will not profess to be an expert on any of PGI's legal circumstances, I, too, am at a loss to explain any hesitation on their part from a legal standpoint. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, the reseen are legal. And Harmony Gold is not engaged in any legal action against PGI regarding the unseen. I don't want PGI to come out and tell us which of the unseen/reseen we are going to see in game. Like you, I would just like to know whether or not this group will be included/considered.

From there, I can and will engage in such wild speculation, it will make a Combine Courtesan blush....

It is the tootsie roll tootsie pop of MWO.. I guess we can't know until we get to take a bite.



The world.. may never know.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 16 May 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Storm McIntyre, on 16 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Vex,

Having thought about it some more, I concede that you could very well be correct. While I will not profess to be an expert on any of PGI's legal circumstances, I, too, am at a loss to explain any hesitation on their part from a legal standpoint. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, the reseen are legal. And Harmony Gold is not engaged in any legal action against PGI regarding the unseen. I don't want PGI to come out and tell us which of the unseen/reseen we are going to see in game. Like you, I would just like to know whether or not this group will be included/considered.

From there, I can and will engage in such wild speculation, it will make a Combine Courtesan blush....

The scary part from my point of view is that aside from other things people may or may not have heard and whatnot, there is a fair piece of evidence that says that they have no intention of adding the reseen to the game. That evidence? The Catapult.

The Catapult? you may think, But that's a classic design in and of itself! And you'd be right. But consider:

The Catapult can be seen as a poor mans Archer. Loadout-wise, I think it's actually quite a different beast, but to some, all 'Mechs with twin large LRM racks are the same. Similarly, the K2 variant, which wasn't anywhere near a very common 'Mech in the universe, can be seen by some as a valid replacement for the Warhammer or Marauder. I hope there are more that see the truth to this: It's anything but a replacement. Yes, true, it has twin PPCs, but that completely ignores the point that the Warhammer and Marauder aren't characterized by twin PPCs alone.

The Marauder for instance gains a third long-range weapon, an AC/5. That's rather significant, to speak nothing of it's backup medium lasers. The Warhammer is known for its extensive secondary battery for good close-range work. Merely having twin PPCs does not a Warhammer or Marauder make, but I wonder if the devs feel that the K2 is a fine replacement for either.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 16 May 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Storm McIntyre]

Thomas Hogarth, on 16 May 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

In this vein, if the reseen are really that much of an issue, I'd be okay with reviving Age of War 'Mechs to fill those loadouts. Example:

Warhammer. Nope, we're not going to do it for XYZ reason.

Okay, so let's futz with things a little. Take the Battleaxe, say it never ceased development, bump it up to 70 tons and give it the same stats as the Warhammer. The Warhammer never happened. Fixed.


Or take the Marauder. Take the Hector, say it never ceased development, bump it to 75 tons and give it the same stats as the Marauder. The Marauder never happened. Fixed.


Given the choice between this and the reseen, I'll take the reseen of course. Zero impact on canon. But given the choice between leaving huge holes in the heavy lineup and changing the canon a little? It hurts me to say it, but I'll take changing the canon a little. Not having common heavies actually impacts my perception of the correctness of the game than re-named classics.

Oh man...


Age of War or no.... I would like to get myself behind the controls of a Battleaxe. A few minutes in a mechlab, and that thing would be an utter beast!!!

[WraithTR1]

Vexgrave Lars, on 16 May 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Now that I've looked at possible matches for these.. except for a few.. WHY.. would you? Particularly the lights are just terrible, why would you sacrifice a Commando capabilities for a Wasp's load out? or an Ostscout? Bleh!

All that doesn't change really until you get tot he heavies where variation grows due to the weight and number of hardpoints. Like the Warhammer (HV) and Battlemaster (AS) which have a lot of energy.

Thomas Hogarth, on 16 May 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

In this vein, if the reseen are really that much of an issue, I'd be okay with reviving Age of War 'Mechs to fill those loadouts. Example:

Warhammer. Nope, we're not going to do it for XYZ reason.

Okay, so let's futz with things a little. Take the Battleaxe, say it never ceased development, bump it up to 70 tons and give it the same stats as the Warhammer. The Warhammer never happened. Fixed.


Or take the Marauder. Take the Hector, say it never ceased development, bump it to 75 tons and give it the same stats as the Marauder. The Marauder never happened. Fixed.


Given the choice between this and the reseen, I'll take the reseen of course. Zero impact on canon. But given the choice between leaving huge holes in the heavy lineup and changing the canon a little? It hurts me to say it, but I'll take changing the canon a little. Not having common heavies actually impacts my perception of the correctness of the game than re-named classics.

Depending on the situation I would take a Wasp or Ostscout over a Commando. I personally enjoy jump capable mechs and in built up terrain or a city they would have advantages over the Commando.

If you are going to replace a Warhammer with any mech please use the Hammerhands instead of a Battleaxe. What's the stats on a Hector, haven't seen that one around before?

[Arctic Fox]

WraithTR1, on 16 May 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

What's the stats on a Hector, haven't seen that one around before?

It has 4/6 movement, two Large Lasers and two Machine Guns. Not extremely impressive, but it is a Primitve 'Mech (One of the first ever designed by the FWL, in fact). It's actually one of my favourite looking 'Mechs simply by how it looks.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 16 May 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Really wanna screw up your day, try trimming a dragon into a Marauder-ish load-out, which you can almost do by sacrificing 15 tons, an LRM and some movement rate.

Very Light armor, slower, and missing 2 Medium Lasers.

But you can do it. In a Franken-Mech sorta way.

The next heavy has to be in the 70-75 ton range. The dragon 60 the Cat 65. "Light" heavies, bout time we get something with meat on it and a lot of variants to make the class "filled out", if you will.

Any bets?


Which has enough hardpoints to build a "marauder - like" load. Again, swapping missiles for Heatsinks and PPCs. Still short 2 medium lasers though trade up for SRMs I guess.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 16 May 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Storm McIntyre]

Thomas Hogarth, on 16 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

The scary part from my point of view is that aside from other things people may or may not have heard and whatnot, there is a fair piece of evidence that says that they have no intention of adding the reseen to the game. That evidence? The Catapult.

The Catapult? you may think, But that's a classic design in and of itself! And you'd be right. But consider:

The Catapult can be seen as a poor mans Archer. Loadout-wise, I think it's actually quite a different beast, but to some, all 'Mechs with twin large LRM racks are the same. Similarly, the K2 variant, which wasn't anywhere near a very common 'Mech in the universe, can be seen by some as a valid replacement for the Warhammer or Marauder. I hope there are more that see the truth to this: It's anything but a replacement. Yes, true, it has twin PPCs, but that completely ignores the point that the Warhammer and Marauder aren't characterized by twin PPCs alone.

The Marauder for instance gains a third long-range weapon, an AC/5. That's rather significant, to speak nothing of it's backup medium lasers. The Warhammer is known for its extensive secondary battery for good close-range work. Merely having twin PPCs does not a Warhammer or Marauder make, but I wonder if the devs feel that the K2 is a fine replacement for either.

Thomas,

You bring up some excellent comparison/references there. And while PGI may be taking that route of thinking, I'm with you on the subject. Just because it has twin PPC's doesn't make it a Warhammer or Marauder. As you so aptly pointed out, those two mechs are entirely different animals compared to the Catapult and its variants. I find your analysis to be very circumspect.

Hmmm.. You and Vex, as well as several other posters here have proven yourselves to have innovative, creative, and resourceful intellects. I do NOT look forward to facing either of you across the battlefield, for in my experience I have found a sharp mind is the deadliest weapon of all.

[Deathz Jester]

Black Dragon EnDrakus, on 16 May 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

***? since when could a marauder fly like that?

Since Sega started doing acid trips lol


But really I would love to see Piranha Games redesigns of the old "unseen" mechs.

So then we would have "unseen", "reseen" and "PGI"

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 16 May 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

Thomas Hogarth, on 16 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

The scary part from my point of view is that aside from other things people may or may not have heard and whatnot, there is a fair piece of evidence that says that they have no intention of adding the reseen to the game. That evidence? The Catapult.

The Catapult? you may think, But that's a classic design in and of itself! And you'd be right. But consider:

The Catapult can be seen as a poor mans Archer. Loadout-wise, I think it's actually quite a different beast, but to some, all 'Mechs with twin large LRM racks are the same. Similarly, the K2 variant, which wasn't anywhere near a very common 'Mech in the universe, can be seen by some as a valid replacement for the Warhammer or Marauder. I hope there are more that see the truth to this: It's anything but a replacement. Yes, true, it has twin PPCs, but that completely ignores the point that the Warhammer and Marauder aren't characterized by twin PPCs alone.

The Marauder for instance gains a third long-range weapon, an AC/5. That's rather significant, to speak nothing of it's backup medium lasers. The Warhammer is known for its extensive secondary battery for good close-range work. Merely having twin PPCs does not a Warhammer or Marauder make, but I wonder if the devs feel that the K2 is a fine replacement for either.

I would call that a huge gaping flaw in this plan of making knock-off 'mechs based on loadouts, which is that loadout/hardpoint slots alone do not make a 'mech. You're missing tons of weight that should be going toward armor or other equipment.

[Solis Obscuri]

Hawkeye 72, on 15 May 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

My only complaint with the reseen is that this:


is not this



While I like the redesign, the Marauder is imprinted in my brain as the first image, and the second one will feel like a cheap knock-off any time I see it. Nothing against the design, as I quite like it (reminds me of a Stone Rhino on slim-fast). But I am partial to the original, regardless of its origins

I actually like that Reseen Marauder better - the original just never looked like it would be able to move correctly, huge lower legs, huge arms pods, spindly upper limbs, torso with hardly any space for an engine to power it all, AC/5 in the side torso in the cneter torso???

The Reseen just looks more substantial, and more impressive to me.

Nav, on 16 May 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Anyway... @ Hawkeye 72 - Fully my thoughts about the Re-seen Marauder. I would like to see the Marauder re-born under FD's creative genius, but still resemble that original in spirit. This was posted in another thread while he was talking with the No Guts No Galaxy crew. Gives you a bit of feel for how it could look. The question is, is it different enough to avoid a legal issue of resembling the original too much?

I'm happy for the cockpit to look more like the new Catapult if need be.

Though this ^^^ would also fit the bill quite nicely...

Easy 8, on 16 May 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Here's the thing, Harmony Gold USA only has the distribution rights to the mecha from Macross, not all of the "unseen" or intellectual property rights for that matter. This leaves the ones from the Robotech:Defenders comic books published by Marvel and the models cast by Revell to be used; Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, Scorpion and Goliath. FASA did get licensing permission from Takatoku Toys to use the likenesses of their products, but then the company tanked and was bought by Bandai. Also Studio Nue, who ACTUALLY owns the intelectual property rights (as do court rulings in Japan) states that Harmony Gold, USA does not own the intellectual property rights to any of the Macross mecha. Soo...Harmony Gold has no real legal basis for its lawsuit and the 1996 decision should be thrown out. Hell, it took them 6 years to get it, that says something right there. If Pirhana does want to use the Macross mecha, then they will have to take that up with Studio Nue, as for the other designs...who ever has the rights to Fang of the Sun Dougram.

Well... Studio Nue owns the intellectual rights, but Harmony Gold got exclusive distribution rights to the art within the US, FASA got rights via a company that had rights to distribute Japanese-produced miniatures based on the series artwork... It's all pretty convoluted, and there isn't a direct route to Studio Nue because of Harmony Gold's exclusivity.

Prosperity Park, on 16 May 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

It seems like most (not all, but most) of the people screaming for Unseen Mechs only want them for their imagery and not for the actual Mechs or their functional abilties.

If you want the actual Mech and the war capacity it can bring to bear on your enemies, then the ReSeen designs should be just fine. However, if all you want is the old images then send Flying Debris Guy a message on his Deviant Art account and he may draw you an old Unseen Mech design, but don't ask for it to be in MW:O because all you care about is looks and prettiness instead of usefulness or function.

If you only want the Mech for its looks, then buy a poster and hang it on a wall and stop complaining about not having your Unseen Mechs.

I actaully like the performance as much as the looks for most of the designs - in some cases (Marauder, Phoenix Hawk) I actually like the performance far better than the original Unseen designs. About the only one that I like the looks of more than the performance is the Shadow Hawk, and I like the Reseen version of that one as much as the original, anyway. About the only Reseen that really sticks in my craw is the Warhammer, which looks way too gangly and has a camel toe...

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 16 May 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Steel Talon]

PGI can redesign mech so well, that i wont see a problem with unseen, unless HG decide to copyright their names LOL