231 replies to this topic

[BoomDog]

MasterGoa, on 15 December 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Also, ECM prevents you from recognizing your team mates.
I mean WTF? IR trackers anyone? This is how fighter planes
recognize each other in combat. It is LOS encoded IR beams...

This is why it's so broken in PUGs, you can't fire at anyone under an ECM field at any range except close brawling range. It turns every battle into a brawl, unless you had more ECM than the other team.

I can see pre-mades adapting to this, but it's just not possible in a pug environment.

[Liberty]

BoomDog, on 15 December 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

ECM= Way, way, way too much bang for 1.5 tons.

SSRMs= OP because they always hit torso, spread damage all over and problem solved.

LRMs= I thought that before patch, LRMs were about right. It was easy to counter by just taking cover. It was forcing LRM boats to get in closer to the combat to guarantee a hit, which increased their risk. Ignore a mid-range LRM boat at your own peril.

I thought they changed where SSRMs hit on last patch. If not then I'd have no problem with where they hit unless they are point blank and firing at an Atlas's arse with it. Kinda hard to miss that. Agree ECM does too much but don't think it is broken. Just need to make modules and specialties so it can't do everything. That or have Angel ECM do some of the things. LRMs I can be biased since I mainly drive Lights but have also done support in a Cat and can go either way. So long as it does not go back to LRMs hitting lights at max range when they are at full speed. Even by Table Top rules that was close to impossible and required a miracle shot.

[Wispsy]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 15 December 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

yeah youre right. Youre totally not trolling and I was being rude for insiniating you were

-sarcasm

but thanks for proving me right about that

I am sorry it appears I missed anything in your post related to balance issues in gameplay and only saw the parts you quoted about TT effects...

[Vernius Ix]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

Anyone who doubts streaks are overpowered should consider, does anyone even CONSIDER putting something something besides SSRM2 in their ravens? I'm sorry was that a no? Speak up louder, was that a NO I WANT TO WIN I USE SSRM2 IN MY RAVEN!!!!

If streaks weren't OP then the ECM wouldn't matter and the Jenner D that is the same mech as a 3L except with jumpjets and an additional laser hardpoint and faster would STILL be better than the Raven. But it isn't. It's worse and not by a little tiny bit, but by such a wide chasm that it is unusably bad.

I think it's cute people think LOWS are fine but ECM is the problem...

I run two SRM six's on mine. Your premise is faulty, your conclusions are based on your emotional feeling rather than on the hard data.

Try again please

Edited by Vernius Ix, 15 December 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Miken]

Quote

ECM SUITE

An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM. Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers.

Active Probe:
Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed, however.

Artemis IV FCS:
ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus.

Narc Missile Beacon:
Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM.

C3 and C3i Computer:
ECM has the eff ect of “cutting off ” any C3- equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network below it is eff ectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 132). Only those C3 units able to draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass through the ECM radius can access the network. If the master unit that connects the lances of a company lies inside the ECM effect radius, the link between the lances is lost, though each lance’s network functions normally (unless the ECM also interferes with them individually).

Quote

Angel ECM Suite:

The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.

When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

Edited by Miken, 15 December 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[Naeron66]

Kell Commander, on 15 December 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

The real problem with the SSRM2 is they kept it too much like the TT rules. Trying to take the rule set where you can only fire a weapon once every 10 seconds to a much faster pace game is going to have a LOT of problems. I remember seeing so many people complain about the SSRM2 missing because in TT it wouldn't fire if it missed, but that just does not translate to this game. I honestly think if the SSRM2 had the ability to miss again, problem solved weapon balanced.

The problem is they kept the positives of streaks (never missing) but lost the balancing factor (random locations). In MWO Streaks would be ok IF each launcher targeted a random location on the mech and went for that.

The problems with LRMs is that they upped the effectiveness of the launchers themselves. The way it should work is that if you fire 5 LRMs then only 3 should hit as the start point. Artemis should add 1 and NARC or TAG should add another 1. And spread the damage around randomly as it should be. In that case LRMs would be about right in environments without ECM.

Change ECM to reduce maximum lock on range and increase lock on time and then LRMs and Streaks would be ok. PGI should address the builds like streak cats only if the changes above do not balance things out. Easiest way would be to limit the total number of Lock on weapons a mech can carry (call it a limit of the targetting systems), then they can add a module to increase that number by 1 (and I would expect Clans would get 1 higher anyway).

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wispsy, on 15 December 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I am sorry it appears I missed anything in your post related to balance issues in gameplay and only saw the parts you quoted about TT effects...

lol ok bro

Naeron66, on 15 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

The problem is they kept the positives of streaks (never missing) but lost the balancing factor (random locations). In MWO Streaks would be ok IF each launcher targeted a random location on the mech and went for that.

oh man the qq would be epic if they went rng with streaks lol

[Khobai]

Quote

The problems with LRMs is that they upped the effectiveness of the launchers themselves. The way it should work is that if you fire 5 LRMs then only 3 should hit as the start point. Artemis should add 1 and NARC or TAG should add another 1. And spread the damage around randomly as it should be. In that case LRMs would be about right in environments without ECM.

If LRMs worked the way they do in tabletop nobody would use them for the same reason nobody used them in tabletop... they sucked. There is a reason custom mech design in tabletop always defaults to medium lasers, ppcs, and gauss, because theyre the best three weapons bar none.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

If LRMs worked the way they do in tabletop nobody would use them for the same reason nobody used them in tabletop... they sucked. There is a reason custom mech design in tabletop always defaults to medium lasers, ppcs, and gauss, because theyre the best three weapons bar none.

you speak for everyone everywhere who ever played TT eh? Interesting given you dont for me and I played LRM support IN TT

[One Medic Army]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

http://penny-arcade....ncing-for-skill

This video is relevant for why you need weapons with disproportionately low-skill and high-power output.

SSRMs and LRMs are basically MWO's equivalent of the noobtube from call of duty. They give new players a chance against skilled players because of their ability to lock-on and track.

That's not to say SSRMs and LRMs don't have problems. They do. The biggest problem with SSRMs is that they automatically hit whch makes them a hard counter to light mechs. Hard counters in general tend not to be good for game balance, because no amount of player skill can overcome a hard counter, while a soft counter can be overcome by player skill. So streaks should not autohit. Likewise, ECM should not hard counter streaks and prevent them from firing, instead disrupted streaks should simply fire like normal srms.

As for LRMs, the main problem with them is the indirect fire. In tabletop, indirect fire is horribly inaccurate, while in MWO its just good as direct firing LRMs. Indirect fired LRMs should get an accuracy penalty. Additionally, Artemis should not work on indirect fired LRMs. Likewise, ECM should not completely shut down LRMs, and should only reduce sensor range to 500m instead of 200m (and 750m with TAG).

Plus I think the poll speaks for itself.. the OP is completely wrong.

Well, according to that video streaks are still doing it wrong. They're better than any other weapons system of equivalent weight while requiring less skill, whereas they should be worse than any weapons system of equivalent weight while needing less skill.
Not much worse, but still worse.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, according to that video streaks are still doing it wrong. They're better than any other weapons system of equivalent weight while requiring less skill, whereas they should be worse than any weapons system of equivalent weight while needing less skill.Not much worse, but still worse.

I dunno about that. A streak weighs 2.5 tons and does 1.43 dps. While two medium lasers weigh 2 tons and do 2.5 dps. So the medium lasers are still way better if you can aim.

Streaks are only better against light mechs.

[Orzorn]

Yup, ECM shouldn't stop streaks...or TAG. Or do a lot of the things it currently does.

Its like they took stealth armor, Angel ECM, and the null signature system and rolled them all into one.

Edited by Orzorn, 15 December 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Naeron66, on 15 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

The problem is they kept the positives of streaks (never missing) but lost the balancing factor (random locations). In MWO Streaks would be ok IF each launcher targeted a random location on the mech and went for that.

And required re locking after missile impact. Remember we had to roll to hit with SSRMs every turn to confirm we had lock. Add that to your idea and i could sign off on how streaks work!

Quote

The problems with LRMs is that they upped the effectiveness of the launchers themselves. The way it should work is that if you fire 5 LRMs then only 3 should hit as the start point. Artemis should add 1 and NARC or TAG should add another 1. And spread the damage around randomly as it should be. In that case LRMs would be about right in environments without ECM.

Not to bad an Idea.

Quote

Change ECM to reduce maximum lock on range and increase lock on time and then LRMs and Streaks would be ok. PGI should address the builds like streak cats only if the changes above do not balance things out. Easiest way would be to limit the total number of Lock on weapons a mech can carry (call it a limit of the targetting systems), then they can add a module to increase that number by 1 (and I would expect Clans would get 1 higher anyway).

Closer you are the quicker the lock? Excluding Art4 and narc as those have to deal with the 180M R bubble. That I think needs to stay.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

I agree generally with the OP. I dont think ECM needs a 'nerf' in abilities although I do think it needs a change in cost/weight/crits to match up with its utility. Right now its too much for too little.

LOWS --- yeah I seriously wish these had been implemented differently. They weren't unfortunately. I'd like to see LRMs receive a 'direct fire mode' that buffs their flight speed and alters their arc, but does not use lock on. Keep the lock on mode for indirect fire, and buff/nerf to whatever degree will bring it inline with the TT balance between the two uses of LRMs. Streaks... egads these are frustrating, but I guess thats how they want it. I'd very much love to see the lock on mechanic nerfed such that their practical aplication is approximately 1.5 times as good (all things considered) as standard SRMs.

[Lykaon]

I do not see how so many players find LRMs to be difficult to counter.It is probably due to those same players have no or very limited LRM use time.There are so many mitigating factors to counter LRMs that I fail to see a reason to add more.

LRMs give a lock on warning.This warning frequently gives you ample time to get into cover and negate the ENTIRE volley of LRMS.

If the lock on warning wasn't enough to get your mech into cover then you have AMS that shoots down a portion of the incomming volley.AMS will engage any and all hostile LRMs that come into range.Even LRMs not targeting your mech.Concentrations of AMS can and will reduce LRM vollies to incidental damage.

LRMs do not drop straight out of the sky to strike a target they have a ballistic arc tragectory that allows tall interviening terrain features to provide 100% cover.The maps we have all have ample sources for this type of cover.Intelligent use of terrain negates most of the effectivness of LRMs.

Minimum range on LRMs is 180m alowing for speedy mechs to rapidly close distance and 100% negate the LRM launcher's ability to inflict any damage on them.With the relativley small size of the maps we have there is little excuse to not have the enemy LRMs pressured with fast skirmishing mechs like Jenners.The LRM boat WILL run out of space the attacker will not run out of the ability to close distance until it is dead.

LRMs have a dispersed damage pattern so lack the ability to deal concentrated precision damage.

LRMs that fire indirectly REQUIRE a spotter.This means indirect LRM vollies are the result of two or more cooperative players not ONLY the LRM mech.If two (or more ) players are applying attention to kill one target they should benifit from enhanced success chances.

LRM launchers are weight and critical intencive weapon systems With exception to of the LRM 5 and the A1 catapult that can mount 6 of them for 12 tons + ammo mass the LRM weapon systems is a heafty piece of equipment.An average heavy class LRM mech has devoted 20-24 tons to LRM weapons.This use of tonnage for offencive firepower MUST grant useful and dependable results or we will see an exstinction of certain mech chassis.


The original poster suggested removing the LRM's ability to reaquire target lock.This tells me the OP has very limited knowlege in LRM use or practical aplication of LRMs because it is the exeption that a volley has lock on for the duration of it's flight not the rule.Without the ability to reaquire target lock LRMs become direct fire weapons that have a massive min range that is easy to counter.


Streaks on the other hand ARE far more effective than they should be.

Missile Lock warnings rarely sound for incomming streaks and even if they did the streaks will hit in 1 second or less most of the time.No time to evade.

AMS rarely engages streak vollies because the launch point is frequently under .5 seconds of flight time from target.AMS doesn't even engage Streak flights unless they are fired from near max range for the streaks.And even when AMS does engage streaks under optimal conditions the AMS will only take out 2 missiles.FYI "optimal" conditions is about a 60m envelope outside that range and streaks won't hit under that range AMS does not fire.

Streaks ALWAYS concentrate damage on the mech's torso region with the bulk of the vollies striking CT.Streaks will never home in on arms legs or heads.The only way an arm or leg is hit by streaks is if it is somehow directly interposed between the point of launch and the center mass of the target.Players claim the streaks were nerfed with a randomizer for hit location but this is false go test it yourself streaks ALWAYS home in on center mass.

Streaks are not heavy,crit intencive or heat intencive weapons they are in fact light small and very heat efficent.Opposite of the larger LRM launchers that are large and heavy and not ammo efficenct.

Streaks have a range of 270m that is frequently lauded as a dificency or weakness of streak boats.This deficency is never ever mentioned with the actual enviorment of play in mind.It's not difficult to fit an A1 cat with a 315 XL engine and jumpjets giving this mech jump capability and a ground speed over 80kph.Streakcats are frequently the fastest and most manuverable heavy mech on the map.They easily possess the ability to close range and destroy any desired target.When discussing the streakboat commando 2D don't even claim range is an issue it isn't.


I could list several examples of how LRMs are not what many players think they are and many examples of how streaks are to good (with serious abuse potential with clan versions like SSRM 6 launchers) but to sum it up.

LRMs are fine as they are now
Streaks are way to good now

[Orzorn]

Lykaon, on 15 December 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Streaks are way to good now

And now, due to ECM, they're almost entirely limited to the mechs they're were supposed to be the best weapon against.

[One Medic Army]

Khobai, on 15 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I dunno about that. A streak weighs 2.5 tons and does 1.43 dps. While two medium lasers weigh 2 tons and do 2.5 dps. So the medium lasers are still way better if you can aim.

Streaks are only better against light mechs.

One streak weighs 1.5 tons, generates 2 heat, and does a guaranteed 5 dmg with a 3.5s cooldown. Also generates vision impairing smoke effects and shake. Also requires ammo. Also tends to hit CT most of the time, unless another part of the mech is in the way.

One medium laser weighs 1 ton, generates 4 heat, and does a possible 5 dmg with a 3s cooldown. Can be aimed at non-CT areas of a mech.

4 SSRMs weighs 6tons, plus roughly 2-3 tons ammo. Generates 2.28 heat/second.
4 Medium lasers weighs 4 tons. Generates 4 heat/second.

Correcting for the weight of SHS (10 in engine free):
SSRMS: 6tons+3tons+13 extra SHS=22 tons
Mediums: 4tons+30 extra SHS=34 tons

Correcting for DHS (10 in engine free@2.0, rest at 1.4):
SSRMS: 6tons+3tons+2tons=11tons
Mediums: 4tons+14tons=18tons

Correcting for DHS (10 in engine free @1.4):
SSRMS: 6tons+3tons+7tons=16tons
Mediums: 4tons+19tons=23tons

Which makes it pretty clear that Streaks are effectively lighter than Mediums when fired constantly. Which is the only place where DPS matters, otherwise we just balance by the fact they both do 5 dmg/strike, and streaks are still better.

The other takeaway from the video is that noob-tube style weapons should be eschewed by higher level players.
In MWO the higher level players use plenty of SSRMs.

Edited by One Medic Army, 15 December 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[shabowie]

Wolfways, on 15 December 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Imo the only thing needed was for SSRM's was for the lock to take longer to acquire; for it to break as soon as the reticule was moved away from the target; and for a new lock needed before firing new missiles.

Sounds good.

[shabowie]

One Medic Army, on 15 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Which makes it pretty clear that Streaks are effectively lighter than Mediums when fired constantly. Which is the only place where DPS matters, otherwise we just balance by the fact they both do 5 dmg/strike, and streaks are still better.

The other takeaway from the video is that noob-tube style weapons should be eschewed by higher level players.
In MWO the higher level players use plenty of SSRMs.

Because even highly skilled players can not hit 100% of the time with any weapon system but streaks. That is an enormous advantage to have to balance against.

[Kaziganthi]

Problem is, everyone is lumping LRMs in with Streaks.

LRM's were fine prior to the Artemis patch. Then they screwed that and they got nerfed. They were fixed again, albiet at a slightly reduced damage and to be honest, weren't to bad. Streaks however had nothing much done besides a wider spread when the hit.

Then came ECM, which the devs blatently admitted was to upset the Streakcats, but it also screwed up LRMs again.

So what has happened. every ECM capabale mech carrys streaks, and LRM's have just about dropped off the map.

People say equip your own TAG if you want to fire LRMs. I will when CLAN LRMs with no minimum range come in and I can mount a Madcat with 100 lrms with a TAG.

If your going to do these polls, you need to seperate LRMs from SSRMs as they are two completely different weapon systems. One is still overpowered, especially when combined with ECM as it can counter other ECM. The other is fine, but when facing ECM, is about as usefull as a knife in a gunfght, as by the time you get close enough to counter you have a 20m window to lock and fire.