160 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Prosperity Park, on 19 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I believe most of these Mechs come with 4 or 5 JJs installed, so if you want to compare Before (with 1 JJ) to what "they should be now," you have to load 5 JJs.

So, load up 5 JJs and see if it's like how they used to be... if it's worse, then they've been nerfed. If it's the same, then they've experienced no change... etc.

The whole point of this thread is that even with 5 you get FAR, FAR worse JJ capability than prior to the patch. You can't jump anything without needing a 300-400m head start, and even then its a crap shoot and requires more humping your way up buildings than actually jumping over them. At the rate they are going you're better off just running the distance instead of jumping, as you barely leave the ground when traveling at max speeds. The fact that I need to jump 50m ahead of the little wall seperating the river and the city is ridiculous.

If you run up to the top of a hill and jump at the top at speed you basically fly in a straight line with the new trajectory, no vertical gains at all.

Edited by hammerreborn, 19 December 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[Kunae]

Prosperity Park, on 19 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I believe most of these Mechs come with 4 or 5 JJs installed, so if you want to compare Before (with 1 JJ) to what "they should be now," you have to load 5 JJs.

So, load up 5 JJs and see if it's like how they used to be... if it's worse, then they've been nerfed. If it's the same, then they've experienced no change... etc.

I have, and they have been nerfed... horribly so. hammerreborn has summed up much of the frustration.

Edited by Kunae, 19 December 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Dreadp1r4te]

I think the Light pilots need to stop QQing now that they're getting some well deserved balancing. Jumping that high without carrying your full tonnage of jump jets is way the hell off balance. You wanna jump that high, drop some lasers/missiles and fit the JJs. Or downsize your engine. I'm okay with Jenners slowing the hell down.

[hammerreborn]

Dreadp1r4te, on 19 December 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

I think the Light pilots need to stop QQing now that they're getting some well deserved balancing. Jumping that high without carrying your full tonnage of jump jets is way the hell off balance. You wanna jump that high, drop some lasers/missiles and fit the JJs. Or downsize your engine. I'm okay with Jenners slowing the hell down.

Hey look someone else who apparently can't read. FULL JJ IS STILL WORSE THAN PRE-PATCH JJ

Edited by hammerreborn, 19 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I like the suggestion and the idea of using the charge, you hold down space and charge your jumpjets. When you let go you get vaulted into the air very very fast, based on how many jumpjets you take, more equals more fuel & upwards/forward thrust.

you'll need to keep some fuel for softening your fall, or take strong leg damage.

In TT jumpjets make you harder to hit, and the same should apply here. jumpjets should feel really powerful if you take a lot, and having some minor steering ability while flying would be good for DFA.

btech:3025 jumpjets please

[Suko]

If I have 1 JJ in my Catapult, I would expect it to at least get me over waist-high river retaining wall in the River City, but it can't.

This. Is. Ridiculous.

I understand that 1 JJ should barely do anything, but not even being able to jump HALF my mechs height over a 7 second burn is absolutely worthless and a joke. 1 JJ = 1 hex of movement in TT and should at LEAST let me hop onto something roughly as tall as my mech if it's right in front of me.

I'm not asking for a "freebie" here, but having 1 JJ on a Catapult does little more than let me hover a few feet above the ground for a couple of seconds.

[Oy of MidWorld]

What about heavy Mechs (CTF-3D)? I don't seem to be able to clear the ground anymore with 4/4 Jumpjets. This negates any tactical advantage.

[Marcus Tanner]

ShadowVFX, on 19 December 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

If I have 1 JJ in my Catapult, I would expect it to at least get me over waist-high river retaining wall in the River City, but it can't.

This. Is. Ridiculous.

I understand that 1 JJ should barely do anything, but not even being able to jump HALF my mechs height over a 7 second burn is absolutely worthless and a joke. 1 JJ = 1 hex of movement in TT and should at LEAST let me hop onto something roughly as tall as my mech if it's right in front of me.

I'm not asking for a "freebie" here, but having 1 JJ on a Catapult does little more than let me hover a few feet above the ground for a couple of seconds.

One level of height in Battletech is about 6m (not 30m as some have suggested).

According to Battletech, one jump jet should let you jump up about half the height of the mech over a roughly 10-second interval, making it *really* inefficient. So barely getting over a waist-high wall and going nearly nowhere in the process sounds about right for a system trying to ape the tabletop. Bringing only one jump jet is something that simply isn't done in the background (because it's ineffective), so I'm fine with it being a really silly choice to make in the context of this video game.

I'm certainly okay with more powerful jump jets, because jumping is cool (and the spirit of the ability is more important than the tabletop game's math). However, jets shouldn't be so good that jump-capable mechs always bring jump jets. Some people, including Jenner pilots, should be happy to just leave the jump jets at home with the feeling that they're just not worth the tonnage.

Jump jets, engine tonnage, armor, weapons and equipment should be just barely good enough to bring. If you feel that you really *must* bring a given thing if you have the option, then it's probably too good.

A lot of people here are left wondering whether jump jets are still worth having, while others still believe it's worth bringing them but just wish they were more powerful. This suggests to me that jump jets are a little on the weak side, but not by all that much.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 19 December 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Marcus Tanner, on 19 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

One level of height in Battletech i's about 6m (not 30m as some have suggested).

According to Battletech, one jump jet should let you jump up about half the height of the mech over a roughly 10-second interval, making it *really* inefficient. So barely getting over a waist-high wall and going nearly nowhere in the process sounds about right for a system trying to ape the tabletop. Bringing only one jump jet is something that simply isn't done in the background (because it's ineffective), so I'm fine with it being a really silly choice to make in the context of this video game.

I'm certainly okay with more powerful jump jets, because jumping is cool (and the spirit of the ability is more important than the tabletop game's math). However, jets shouldn't be so good that jump-capable mechs always bring jump jets. Some people, including Jenner pilots, should be happy to just leave the jump jets at home with the feeling that they're just not worth the tonnage.

Jump jets, engine tonnage, armor, weapons and equipment should be just barely good enough to bring. If you feel that you really *must* bring a given thing if you have the option, then it's probably too good.

A lot of people here are left wondering whether jump jets are still worth having, while others still believe it's worth bringing them but just wish they were more powerful. This suggests to me that jump jets are a little on the weak side, but not by all that much.

This argument is bad and you should feel bad. JJs were what Jenner pilots were blugeoned with repeatedly in whine threads when ECM was announced. WHY WOULD ANYONE BRING A RAVEN IT HAS NO JJ. Making JJs **** means that Jenners should now get ECM. When that happens we'll stop complaining that the new JJs have neutered our manuverabily while simultaneously increasing its cost to use.

[Marcus Tanner]

hammerreborn, on 19 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

This argument is bad and you should feel bad. JJs were what Jenner pilots were blugeoned with repeatedly in whine threads when ECM was announced. WHY WOULD ANYONE BRING A RAVEN IT HAS NO JJ. Making JJs **** means that Jenners should now get ECM. When that happens we'll stop complaining that the new JJs have neutered our manuverabily while simultaneously increasing its cost to use.

Every mech should get access to ECM for a number of reasons, first and foremost being that ECM shouldn't be so good that it's the obvious first choice for anything that has the option. A Raven without ECM and a Jenner without ECM should be comparable, as should a mech that uses jump jets and a mech that does not.

Also, I do not for a moment believe that access to ECM would prevent you from complaining about jump jets.

A few of you guys seem really hostile to me considering my clear desire for jump jets to be better than they are. Do you have too many friends or something? Is the polling on this just going so embarrassingly far in your favor that you feel the need to alienate people?

[Poppaukko]

ShadowVFX, on 19 December 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

If I have 1 JJ in my Catapult, I would expect it to at least get me over waist-high river retaining wall in the River City, but it can't.

This. Is. Ridiculous.

I understand that 1 JJ should barely do anything, but not even being able to jump HALF my mechs height over a 7 second burn is absolutely worthless and a joke. 1 JJ = 1 hex of movement in TT and should at LEAST let me hop onto something roughly as tall as my mech if it's right in front of me.

I'm not asking for a "freebie" here, but having 1 JJ on a Catapult does little more than let me hover a few feet above the ground for a couple of seconds.

Barely made that jump with 3 JJs on my Jenner. Took a lot of humping.

[Dormax]

Marcus Tanner, on 19 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

According to Battletech, one jump jet should let you jump up about half the height of the mech over a roughly 10-second interval, making it *really* inefficient. So barely getting over a waist-high wall and going nearly nowhere in the process sounds about right for a system trying to ape the tabletop. Bringing only one jump jet is something that simply isn't done in the background (because it's ineffective), so I'm fine with it being a really silly choice to make in the context of this video game.

So is that half the height of a Jenner or half the height of an Atlas? Just asking.

We're not disappointed that they nerffed JJ's. That's perfectly fine. It gives us a choice, more JJs and less of something else or the other way around. I don;t think anyone's (reasonably) arguing that point. And whether or not what we had before was good isn't really the argument either.

Based on the suggestion here, a Catapult with 4 JJs should be able to get twice an Atlas' height in 10 seconds. Even if that's what it should be, that's not what's currently happening. By this reasoning, a Jenner should be able to look an Atlas in the eye (if briefly) with a single jet. Right now, 1 JJ means a 7 second "hover" and nothing more.

Unlike the "nerf ECM" rant that so many went on, JJ's wern't really "broken" other than the math being off. Now the math is broken, too.

[warp103]

real simple 5 jj is like have only 3. you no long get to the same height as before. and if you are in front of a object and hit full forward. you will not clear it no matter the height. if a run and jump you might make a small object{atlas} but that it. So it the nerf from hell and the final push to brawl with ecm. NO more tactics like jump fire or 360 turn on the run.

[Cest7]

1 jj seems to give you the same lateral lift as 5 jj.. but the more jj you have the faster you begin to ascend

[Ryvucz]

Even with 5 jump jets on my Jenners, the lift is very limited. =\

[Leprosyvirus]

The only point to JJ's now is install one so you can have soft landings and glide to areas that are relatively the same height. You can still do the JJ throttle full stop spin though you can do sharp turns which is nice.

[Dukarriope]

Dreadp1r4te, on 19 December 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

I think the Light pilots need to stop QQing now that they're getting some well deserved balancing. Jumping that high without carrying your full tonnage of jump jets is way the hell off balance. You wanna jump that high, drop some lasers/missiles and fit the JJs. Or downsize your engine. I'm okay with Jenners slowing the hell down.

I think the problem is that with 5 jump jets we're still barely rising any meaningful height.

[Leprosyvirus]

Dukarriope, on 19 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I think the problem is that with 5 jump jets we're still barely rising any meaningful height.

He also needs to take into account that we're supposed to envision assault mechs with JJs that somehow get on top of buildings and behind the enemy. Not with these JJs because light mechs can barely get any height with 5.

They're not so much as jumpjets as they are hover boots.

Edited by Leprosyvirus, 19 December 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[Niberung]

The new JJ is definitely a positive thing. Now you actually have to allocate space and weight for them if you want to jump over the buildings. Another step towards balancing out the light mechs.

[Lupin]

Tested both Jenner and Raven, increasing JJ 1 at a time to see the effects. 3 seems to be minimum now for jumping gaps, stop damage from falling and stopping yourself getting stuck in map.
But even with a full 5 on both mechs getting height is the problem not how long I say in air.

Good example is River City, if you fall into walk way/road below base you could get back up. Now you run out of fuel before you get that far.