160 replies to this topic

[Nash]

Ok so I was testing my Jenners yesterday with different number of JJ and always at river city to have an equal testing field.

First I did test with 1 JJ at the Jenner-K:

You won't feel any lift off from the ground what is sometimes ok but I think with 1 JJ you should at least be able to lift off the ground for at least 1 meter so that you can turn the lower torso much faster. imho

Strange effect with 1 JJ was that as soon as I was having some kind of launch pad I could jump some meters. At least high enough to jump over a little obstacle like a fence at river city.

Second test with 2 JJ

Now I could lift off and jump over the mentioned fence at river city but it did take nearly all the fuel of the JJ to succeed.

Third test with 3 JJ

I could reach now a good jump hight if I have a launch pad and so I could also jump over an opponent mech if I would risk for beeing shot down because the JJ aren't good enough to bring the mech much higher than the opponent mech and when it reaches that hight the fuel is nearly empty.

Fourth test with 4 JJ

The jumps did feel from the behavior as if there would be 2 JJ's be missing (or at least I would think it should feel like that compared to before the patch)

At least I could now jump over an enemy mech even without launch pad. Also it didn't feel good to be that slow and not that accurate to jump at a low range.

Couldn't reach most buildings roofs. Only the very low ones.


Fifth test with 5 JJ

At least now it did feel like the behavior was as before but somehow it didn't match complete.

Yes, the mech did lift off now faster it also did jump over other mechs but it still didn't reach the same hight as before the patch. When I did reach the roofs of most buidings the fuel was nearly empty while before the patch it was between 15 and 25%.

So if suppose that the JJ aren't as effective as before but they are on the right way.

I will do one more test at river city with my Jenner and 5 JJ. I'll try to jump on one of the 2 crane that are at the harbour. (Yes it was possible to do so before the patch even if than the JJ were empty while you did reach the edge of one of the crane. You had to jump from the ship to reach them)

So if I could succeed with the 5 JJ to do so again they aren't nerfed but if I won't reach the edge they are I suppose. Anyway I'll see it as soon as I can launch that test and than I will report back here for some more info about it.

cheers

[Snib]

Displeased with the jump height nerf myself (speed while in the air is also dropping much faster than before). Only very few mechs can even use jump jets, considering the 4-5 tons using them costs it should be a much more defining ability (even more than pre-nerf as far as i'm concerned). ECM is only 1.5 tons after all and a complete game changer.

Edited by Snib, 20 December 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[gamingogre]

I am running the Cataphract with 4JJ. I had the 4 in there before this patch. Before patch I had a jump that seemed just right. Now I still have my max of 4, but the jump just isn't enough. Now I get stuck part way up building and fall back down more often than not. If I could add more than 4 this would not be a problem. Since I can't, the JJ need a boost to their vertical lift.

[GRIMM11]

I'll throw my 2 cents in in hopes that the Devs see, but I also feel the Jump Jets have been over nerfed. I think its perfect that more jump jets equal more lift, but one jump jet doesnt give me any lift going 142KPH, and two doesnt get me over 3 meter rocks... its very annoying having my Jenner's legs all busted up.

[hammerreborn]

I really hope the trajectory gets changed by the 15th, or the spider will be complete and utter garbage, and was the one mech I was really really looking foward to.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I just tested a 5 JumpJet Jenner-7D on Caustic Valley, and it felt like I can jump only 60-65% as High as I used to.

I assume that 5 JJ = Typical Build, so it feel like JJ's are now only 65% as lofty as they used to be for a typical build.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 December 2012 - 11:24 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Useful Info here:

Paul Inouye, on 20 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Yes... Jump Jets need a vertical thrust buff when you first launch. This will be addressed in the new year (January).

Please keep in mind, the max heights you used to get with jump jets was never intended to be that high. The heights you're getting now are correct. The problem is how long it takes for you to get there. Sorry to say, but until January, you're going to be dragging your toes for about 60m+ before gaining major upward thrust.

[hammerreborn]

Prosperity Park, on 20 December 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Useful Info here:

Aw you beat me too it. Though I'll add a link to the post http://mwomercs.com/...34#entry1639534

[Kunae]

Prosperity Park, on 20 December 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Useful Info here:

It's not useful, at all.

It's just another example of Paul not really having a clue(Like with DHS). And this is unfortunate, as I like his acerbic wit, in most cases.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Kunae, on 20 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

It's not useful, at all.

It's just another example of Paul not really having a clue(Like with DHS). And this is unfortunate, as I like his acerbic wit, in most cases.

It seems like the info he presented is correct:

• What we get now is less than what it used to be (correct)
  
• Currently, the initial vertical impulse is weaker than optimal (correct)
  
• It used to be higher than they planned for a typical 5 JJ Build (based on internal information; no data exists to suggest it's a lie)
  
• They plan on giving the upward component a higher initial impulse in a short while (no reason to believe it's a lie)

Checking on the Command Chair posts about known issues, they seem to have a 1-month Lag Time between incorporating fixes initially into their Local Builds and the time it takes to get it out into the weekly Patch Distributable.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 20 December 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[locilocisu]

The vertical and horizontal thrust should be affected by the Mech weight. CATs should require more JJs to achieve the same height as a jenner would.

[Felicitatem Parco]

locilocisu, on 20 December 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

The vertical and horizontal thrust should be affected by the Mech weight. CATs should require more JJs to achieve the same height as a jenner would.

Heavy Mechs have heavier JJ's (they weigh more per JJ in bigger Mechs)

[Rofl]

locilocisu, on 20 December 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

The vertical and horizontal thrust should be affected by the Mech weight. CATs should require more JJs to achieve the same height as a jenner would.

Prosperity Park, on 20 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Heavy Mechs have heavier JJ's (they weigh more per JJ in bigger Mechs)

Pretty much. A Cat's JJs weigh twice as much as a Jenner, so technically a Cat pays over double for slightly less than 1/2 the JJ capacity.

[Nash]

Nash, on 20 December 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Ok so I was testing my Jenners yesterday with different number of JJ and always at river city to have an equal testing field.

First I did test with 1 JJ at the Jenner-K:

You won't feel any lift off from the ground what is sometimes ok but I think with 1 JJ you should at least be able to lift off the ground for at least 1 meter so that you can turn the lower torso much faster. imho

Strange effect with 1 JJ was that as soon as I was having some kind of launch pad I could jump some meters. At least high enough to jump over a little obstacle like a fence at river city.

Second test with 2 JJ

Now I could lift off and jump over the mentioned fence at river city but it did take nearly all the fuel of the JJ to succeed.

Third test with 3 JJ

I could reach now a good jump hight if I have a launch pad and so I could also jump over an opponent mech if I would risk for beeing shot down because the JJ aren't good enough to bring the mech much higher than the opponent mech and when it reaches that hight the fuel is nearly empty.

Fourth test with 4 JJ

The jumps did feel from the behavior as if there would be 2 JJ's be missing (or at least I would think it should feel like that compared to before the patch)

At least I could now jump over an enemy mech even without launch pad. Also it didn't feel good to be that slow and not that accurate to jump at a low range.

Couldn't reach most buildings roofs. Only the very low ones.


Fifth test with 5 JJ

At least now it did feel like the behavior was as before but somehow it didn't match complete.

Yes, the mech did lift off now faster it also did jump over other mechs but it still didn't reach the same hight as before the patch. When I did reach the roofs of most buidings the fuel was nearly empty while before the patch it was between 15 and 25%.

So if suppose that the JJ aren't as effective as before but they are on the right way.

I will do one more test at river city with my Jenner and 5 JJ. I'll try to jump on one of the 2 crane that are at the harbour. (Yes it was possible to do so before the patch even if than the JJ were empty while you did reach the edge of one of the crane. You had to jump from the ship to reach them)

So if I could succeed with the 5 JJ to do so again they aren't nerfed but if I won't reach the edge they are I suppose. Anyway I'll see it as soon as I can launch that test and than I will report back here for some more info about it.

cheers

Ok I just did my final test for the 5 JJ

I did try to get on the crane on river city and it is still possible to get there when you have 5 JJ.

One thing I can add to the JJ is that they aren't getting as high as before the patch but as you can guess they have been very...hmm...non-standard

A second thing I could add is that it seems that a mech as soon as it is hitting a wall or an obstactle is not gaining hight as fast as it did before the patch. So I suppose it has something to do with the collision because when I try to jump up on a roof and don't hit a wall I'm getting higher than when I hit the wall.

cheers



EDIT: ok I just did read Poul's post and so my guess was right as I think...so let's get starting the new year as soon as possible and have January as fast as possible so that a patch may change that issue ^^

Edited by Nash, 20 December 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[PenumbralRadiance]

Ok, most of my thoughts here have been gone over already, and the Dev response covers a bit more.
I do want to chime in with my subjective experience when I tested with both my Jenner D and my Catapault.
I tried the Jenner with the full range of jump jets over several matches, and after two matches at 5 and a couple of matches with my catapault at 4 I ditched them... on all mechs.

The jenner is simply underpowered in relation to how it was previously (even if that was "more powerful than intended"), it is underpowered in relation to what is actually fun to play, and it is nonsensical logically as it is presently implimented when comparing the Jenner and the Catapault.
My jenner with 5 jump jets (2.5 tons) gives me 45 meters of max jump distance according to the mech lap.

My Catapault with 4 jump jets (4 tons) gives me 41 meters.

First off, this does not make sense as a reasonable relationship between these two mech classes, the jenner SHOULD be considerably more maneuverable with a full load of its jumpjets as compared to a catapault with a full loadout of jumpjets.

There is no appreciable difference in the speed at which either mech achieves its max height, and this is something where the mass of the mech should be playing in to the equation.

There should be a direct and quantifiable relationship between the number of jump jets on the mech, the class of jumpjet, and the weight of the mech, all leading up to a "thrust" or "impulse" value.

This is one thing that I cannot stress enough (as it appears that they are doing something completely different):
THRUST SHOULD REMAIN CONSTANT AT ALL TIMES.
This is basic physics.
There will be some inertial to overcome but that happens almost instantly and then you end up with a constant thrust from that point forward.
Please to not break physics... it makes the game much less intuitive, which means bigger learning curve for new players, and a much sillier feel to the game all around.
On this same note, momentum should be preserved when jump jets are activated, thus allowing jenners and other lights to get up to a good clip and then use jump jets to launch a long arcing jump and cover some real ground.
Also, impacts with structures should bleed speed off and a rapid pace, which will help balance this out by simply punishing flying pilots who misjudge their jumps.

I will let the battletech rules jockeys bust out the "Cannon" on the comparison between the two, but personally I care little about the Cannon except as a general guideline for what was found to be balanced in a turn based setting, and that it is probably a good place to start when trying to balance things.
Like ECM... which was actually several components require a LOT more critical space/tonnage than the current swiss army knife does.

The realities of the power level of these tools when in the hand of players obviously varies tremendously when compared to the power level of these tools in a turn based game... however, generally speaking, a tool for a live action game is well designed when there is a direct relationship between the basic skill level required to use an item and the power level of that item, and when there is also a direct relationship between the skill of a user with an item and the power level of an item.
ECM does not have that feel at all, in fact it puts all of the skill requirement on those attempting to attack an ECM user, and does vastly more than any other single piece of equipment in the game for the tonnage and critical space required.
Jump jets PREVIOUSLY had that feel, now they feel like a minor utility tool that I may use for rapid direction changes, but I sincerely doubt I will use more than one anytime soon with the cost/benefit provided by jumpets in their current form or anything in the same power scale.

In summary:
The jumpjets as currently implimented (With full loadout) feel like about 60-70% of the effectiveness that I had on my Jenner pre-patch, and about 70-80% of what I got on my catapault.
Pre patch the jenner performed jumps noticably better than the heavy, which felt "right" intuitively, this is no longer substantially the case.
I feel like we should be getting about 80% on both from what they have said, and that would mean making these things scale sensibly both by number of jump jets on the mech, and by the ratio between the thrust provided and the weight of the mech.

This would also leave room for improved jumpjets later on taking us towards 100-120% of previous values... by which time we should have the Jaggermech, which will make flying around as a light a MUCH more dangerous proposition.

[Kunae]

Prosperity Park, on 20 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

It seems like the info he presented is correct:

• What we get now is less than what it used to be (correct)
  
• Currently, the initial vertical impulse is weaker than optimal (correct)
  
• It used to be higher than they planned for a typical 5 JJ Build (based on internal information; no data exists to suggest it's a lie)
  
• They plan on giving the upward component a higher initial impulse in a short while (no reason to believe it's a lie)

Checking on the Command Chair posts about known issues, they seem to have a 1-month Lag Time between incorporating fixes initially into their Local Builds and the time it takes to get it out into the weekly Patch Distributable.

I was not suggesting that he was lying, in the least. That is what is so disappointing, and disheartening.

In my opinion, Paul has made some choices which are contrary to logic, common sense and general playability, on multiple occasions. This makes me question his thought processes and perceptions of the world. I don't think he lies. I think that he thinks in ways which seem incomprehensible to me.

[Melcyna]

While i don't necessarily agree with him, you will have to justify your stance and opinion as well and back it with more argument.

For example if Paul says that the jump ceiling is intended to be X m or what not, then he should have a logical reasoning as to WHY such amount is chosen etc (and preferably we would like to know that when he has the time to explain it)

Similarly if you want to argue that the ceiling limit, etc should be Y instead or what not, you will have to back it with more argument as to WHY this should be the case if you want other ppl who are neutral to agree with you.

in both cases, there needs to be a clear reasoning of the amount chosen or the path taken, etc...

note: the argument of "BUT I USED TO BE ABLE TO DO IT!"

IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT unless if the previous state represent perfection or otherwise a superior state (and you will then have to explain WHY it is superior)

Edited by Melcyna, 20 December 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Melcyna, on 20 December 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

note: the argument of "BUT I USED TO BE ABLE TO DO IT!"

IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT unless if the previous state represent perfection or otherwise a superior state (and you will then have to explain WHY it is superior)

Well thats not hard at all. The old way was superior because you could actually jump over things, not just into them and hope you can hump your way over the hill.

This JJ change has killed Jenners, there is little to no reason to use them over the Raven. ECM and roughly the same armament...or...the new JJs that are nearly twice the tonnage and can't even clear retaining walls let alone allow you to escape chasers in the outside Ravine in Frozen City by jumping up the cliffside.

And God. The way JJs are now the Spider is DoA. Completely unarmed compared to a raven and won't even be able to clear a building with jumps. Ya, I'll pass.

Edited by hammerreborn, 20 December 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Joker Two]

I pilot both Jenners and Catapults, and was surprised to find I can barely clear even the lowest buildings now. On Frozen City, with a Catapult with max jump jets (4), my jets now run dry just as I clear the lip of the lowest fully exposed buildings, and it is a stretch for my Jenner with 5 to get up the base walls on River City.

hammerreborn, on 20 December 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

This JJ change has killed Jenners, there is little to no reason to use them over the Raven. ECM and roughly the same armament...or...the new JJs that can't even clear retaining walls let alone allow you to escape chasers in the outside Ravine in Frozen City by jumping up the cliffside.

This also bothers me. The max engine rating on the RVN-3L is only 5 lower than the JR7-D (or any other Jenner), for a difference of maybe 2-5 kph, depending on Efficiencies. Considering the -3L can mount ECM with 2 SSRMs, I have won only a handful of knifefights in my Jenner since the ECM patch. Now I cannot even effectively escape, since the 2.5 tons devoted to Jump Jets (I have always mounted 5, even pre-patch) only gets me a fraction of the mobility I used to have.

[Dirus Nigh]

As said before the jump jets where not so much nerfed, they where fixed.

I have never used less than four jets on my mechs. Mostly it's because I new the fix would come sooner or later and I did not want to depend on a load out that relied on the bug/place holder mechanics. Four jump jets is all I really need in my mech whether its a catapult, jenner, or possibly the spider when it comes out. I can use them to turn effectively and get onto or over three story buildings.

However even with four jets on my jenner and catapults I did notice a reduction in thrust. Hopefully this will get tweaked later on.