160 replies to this topic

[Argent Usher]

I don't understand why PGI wants here a 1:1 conversion of the TT rules because the game moves more and more away from the original with every patch (examples: TAG 750m, LRM vs. SRM missile damage, double HS ratio, no min. range for a Gauss, current target information sharing like a C3 network, implemeting a non-existent ECM system etc.).

I guess the MWO ends on the day when PGI will implement the MASC and 12vs12 matches with near 200kph Light Mechs or a 180kph CN9-D.

But the GL of GL&HF (current GL&HECM) will then make sense.


Cheers A.U.

[hammerreborn]

Mawai, on 21 December 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Interesting ... almost everyone agrees that Jump Jets were broken in the last patch.I don't recall seeing any patch notes regarding a nerf to jump jet performance so presumably the change was unintentional.

I don't know how their internal testers can miss this sort of thing. A full set of jump jets should have had at least the same performance as a single jump jet pre-patch and they do not.

In addition, as was pointed out, the jump jet range is something like 30m (one hex) per some number of jump jets but if you look at the Mechlab where it displays jump jet range ... the maximum jump jet range for a Jenner is 45m and for the Catapult is 41m ... a single jump jet on a Jenner shows a 9m range and on a Catapult it is 10m. Clearly this UI element is either broken or the overall jump jet range is broken.

The UI element is showing Max height, which is basically barely enough to clear a stalker (I know I couldn't last night, "jumped" flat into his chest before humping my way over his head.

And as for the patch notes:

Jump Jets:

* Removing Jump jet override (now using actual jump jet loadout restrictions)
* Now enforcing and showing maximum number of jump jets as well as current number equipped on a Mech chassis.
* Added Jump jet bar showing maximum jump distance for current configuration (if a Mech is capable of using jump jets)
* What this all boils down to is that the number of Jump Jets on a Mech will now properly affect jump height/distance.
* Players will notice a change in the overall jump trajectory. This will be tuned in future patches.

[Col Forbin]

I would say this is something that requires a hotfix... not waiting till next patch. They are completely broken...

[chumppi]

They were poor previously, it was barely worth having one JJ for the full effect. Now they're completely ****. IGP, you can't code proper jumpjets so you make them useless? Nice.

[Mad Porthos]

I am very glad that Jump Jets effectiveness has been tied to the number of jump jets equipped on a given mech. I expected such would happen from the moment friends started suggesting dumping 4 or even all 5 jump jets off the jenner, for 2-2.5 tons of extra goodies. It hadn't occured to me before then to run less than the full complement, because to me, in a light scout mech, jumping was invaluable for manuverability and covering rough ground, gaining access to places not easily or quickly reached by ground bound mechs.

On a Jenner, this meant for the Frozen City maps, one could get from the trench surrounding the city center, up onto the "plateau" very quickly... useful for evading radar, staying out of view, etc. My variants of the jenner kept all five jump jets, so that I would not get sloppy in my building, assuming that 2 tons of extra equipment was available to me.

Conseqently, when this recent patch went live, I had a very clear view of what it did. Regardless of the complaints about jenners using JJ's previously to evade damage in combat, the changes in jump trajectory truly do Endanger the ability of a jump capable mech to do it's role based job. As a scout, the advantage given to my fully jump compliant mech by jump jets has been functionally crippled. This jenner is one meant to have jump jets, a full complement of them and consqently should remain an effective jumper... it has paid the price, unlike those many "OPTIMIZED" jenners that carried the single Jump Jet for full advantages.

In Battletech tabletop, since that's the "Canon" we (some of us at least) look to for guidance it would seem - one can see that if a mech is jump capable, the overall distance a mech can jump is not exclusively regulated by number of jump jets, though a certain number are REQUIRED to gain jump ability and typically one either has full compliment, or none at all. Rather the number of "hexes" one could jump, up or forward or any combination was tied to the engine power to chassis weight ratio. So if your engine was sufficient to give you a high jump distance, based on your light chassis, you simply needed a certain number of Jump Jets to make that happen. That very same engine in a heavier chassis would result in a much smaller number distance manageable for the heavier chassis, due to the fact that it would have a lower power to weight ratio.

So if a mech capable of covering 7 units at a walk and 11 units in a run, used jump jets, they'd need 7 jump jets to also gain 7 units of jumping distance. If they equipped fewer units, the general assumption was they were capping thier overall jump distance/effectiveness at less than full potential. The very same engine in a heavier chassis would result perhaps in a mech that could walk 4 units, run 6 units and jump 4 units. Since it really was not going to be up in the air for very long, it could get away with only 4 jump jets to cover those 4 units/hexes of movement.

What seems to have been implemented so far in this admittedly beta testing situation, is a bit of an experimental hybrid of this. A jenner, by design, seems to have been slated for having 5 jump jets... less than this number and performance drops off. But even at full, performance is no where near what is necessary or expected for the mech that dedicated to this maneuverabilty by spending that tonnage for jets.

I would contend that rather than tying the number of jump jets to the specific chassis and then running the decrease in jump efficiency off the number of jump jets actually used... you instead put effort into to finding a system tied more to the power to weight ratio of the fusion engine and chassis it's being used in. Just as having a higher power engine on a lighter car should result in a faster vehicle, it's always been the same for Battlemechs. The choice to add additional jump jets is where one shows the willingness to design jump capability into one's personal build, or whether that's a sacrifice. It also gives a person wishing to customize for greater jump ability, reason to get higher power or XL engines (or light engines, when they come about) despite the danger these may pose, because they not only give extra speed, but also extra jumping power in both vertical and horizontal axis.

If one chooses to have fewer jump jets than full, one is using a decreased amount of thrust, reaction mass and stabilization relative to the optimal that an given engine on a given chassis is capable. I'm sure that should also be seen in less "mid air" manuverability. Giving careful attention to this aspect of the game along these lines really can polish customization to play styles and allow there to remain a bit of an "aerial" element to our battle tech battles, rather than the ground n' pound situation I'm seeing after this patch.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 21 December 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Atma Erebus]

My 2 cents worth as someone who only has jump jets on a Cataphract:
- It's completely reasonable that thrust is tied to the number of jets, so I agree that the patch was necessary
- For my 4 tons worth of jets, I would expect to get better results. I have less lift and height than before, yet I'm giving up either a large laser, 1/4 of my heatsinks, 10kph in speed or 4 tons of armour (or some combination of those). What do I get? The ability to jump over small objects in roughly double the time it would take to go around them. I really don't care what tabletop says, if I'm giving up that much in THIS GAME I would expect a comparable benefit.

[EtherDragon]

I have also been trying JJs after the patch.

I think they have been nerfed way too hard. Quite simply, there is no configuration of JJs that gives us any kind of performance like what we had before the patch. Even a fully loaded Jenner with all 5 JJs can't manover.

I don't expect this to be Gundam Online or anything, but I expect a full JJ jenner to be able to jump over stuff like they could pre-patch. As you reduce the number of JJs, you reduce the height you can achieve.

Quite Simply JJs (however much tonnage you throw at them) should give you more options for manoeverability. Currently, they just chew up a portion of your overall tonnage with no real benefit.

As JJs stand right now, I'm ripping them off my Founder's Jenner and replacing them with more gun.

Also, the control scheme for JJs seems more difficult than it needs to be - so here is what I suggest:
Set the default forward momentum to zero. Even if you start at a run before jumping your forward velocity quickly bleeds off to a stop (as if you hit the X key).
Have WS be simple thrust vectors, so you can control forward momentum while jumping.
Have AD be rotational vectors, so you can turn your mech while jumping.
Set each of these controls to use some of the vertical thrust during the burn - forward thrusting turning mech should reach less height than a vertically jumping one.
Lastly, the amount of vertical thrust should be inversely praportional to your height above the terrain below you. So, if you are starting a jump, you get more vertical lift because you are close to the ground. This will help a lot with making landings without hurting yourself, as you get closer to the ground during descent, you get more breaking from increased thrust...

This would allow for some simple manoevers:
1. You could run toward a building and thrust vertically, applying a bit of forward momentm at the end to land on it.
2. You could run toward an atlas, and jump over it turning 180 degrees in the process.
3. You could go from a stop to forward momentum in mid-air.

Currently, my manoevers are limited to:
Use all my fuel (with a 5 JJ Jenner) and not be able to get intop of a modest building.
or
Remove all JJs.

Edited by EtherDragon, 21 December 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[Garagano]

the funny thing IMHO is that:
PGI want to collect data about the JJ changes now.
But the only data they can collect now, is that nobody is using JJs any more!
If this is not a sign of a failed game design change, ...

I love MWO and "flying Jenners". Please patch the JJs back to usable again, ASAP!
thx!

[MasterBLB]

If you want to make peoples take more jump jets please consider somesuch like:
http://mwomercs.com/...ment-jump-jets/

[hammerreborn]

EtherDragon, on 21 December 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

As JJs stand right now, I'm ripping them off my Founder's Jenner and replacing them with more gun.

Awesome post overall, but ya, ripping JJs off a Jenner just makes you a gimped Raven.

I really really hope there is some shiny beacon of hope come the 18th of January cause as is the Spider is going to be a hilarious failure without some magic mojo like ECM getting added to it.

Edited by hammerreborn, 21 December 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

I hereby suggest Jump Jets to be renamed to Hover Jets. As I certainly do not feel like I am "jumping", even with 4 out of a maximum of 5 JJs.

Do not get me wrong, they are still useful for softening a landing when moving down a deep slope, or bridging small gaps. But I do not think that this equals the value of 2 tons...

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 21 December 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

When I mentioned that jump jets aping tabletop rules should lift about half the height of a mech, that was about half a Catapult (as opposed to half a Jenner or half an Atlas). Mechs are supposed to be about 12m tall, ranging form roughly 7m to roughly 17m.

In the tabletop, jump jets are there to help you get past rough terrain more quickly and turn more easily, at the cost of pure ground speed (you can go faster by running in a straight line than by using jump jets). MWO doesn't follow this blueprint, nor should it have to. In some ways it's more effective and in some ways less.

---

Jenners are worse than Ravens now because ECM is too effective for its tonnage. That's an ECM problem, not a Jenner problem or a jump jet problem.

Having jump jets is not compensation for not having ECM. There are plenty of mechs that have neither, and no other benefit for missing out on both. PGI thinks that ECM is appropriately balanced against things like a AMS or Beagle or 3 Small Lasers, as demonstrated by the fact that they're not willing to make those more effective or make ECM less effective.

---

Jenners aren't very good at jumping. I would expect a mech that moves 140kph to need about 9 jump jets to meet pre-patch jumping height.

It doesn't appear that having 8 or 9 jump jets on a Jenner would allow it to reach pre-patch height, and it seems that this may be a dubious use of tonnage even if they were to go that route. This is why I would recommend that jump jets be better than they are now.

Pre-patch, taking a single jump jet was the obvious choice, and amazing for the tonnage. It should not be that way. It should be a real decision to dedicate tonnage to jump jets, and painful to purchase jump jets appropriate to your speed. It should be arguably better than taking heat sinks or circumstantially better than taking heat sinks but not *clearly* better.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 21 December 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[ltwally]

After the patch, I maxed out the jump jets on my Jen: 5 jump jets. That comes out to 2.5 tonnes, which is not an insignificant amount of weight on a light mech, and my jumping ability is pretty pathetic; I cannot jump as far, as high or as long as I used to be able to. I'd guestimate it's about 2/3 the jumping ability I had previously.

I understand that before it was not fully implemented. But now that it is, it'd be nice if that 2.5 tonnes was actually worthwhile. Jump jets as they currently stand are not worth their weight. At best, I'll keep one JJ just to help mitigate falling damage (from the bug that still exists where minor falls cause leg damage to high speed mechs).

Please increase JJ so that a mech with maxed out JJ at least hits the previous levels (and a little more, given the weight, wouldn't hurt).

[wolf74]

Odds are this Post is going to get LOST in the thread but Out of Respect to the Moderators I am Placing it in the Jump Jet Thread and not starting a New One.


First of Thank you for the first wave of Changes to the Jump Jets it a Good Start to start Limiting their power per jump jet. As everyone has already stated Jump Jets are right now a bit under powered but I will let the power per Jump Jet be up to you the coders. And now to My small request (I hope it is small code wise)
The Number of Jump Jets on a Mech was Not limited to the Mech Class but to the Power they could Pull from the Engine. The Math for it (Not sure how to code it in Crytek code due to the fact I could not find a Basic math Function list for it) is “Engine Rating” / “Mechs Weight” Rounded Down equals the Max Number of JumpJets a Mech and use.

AKA Jenner with a 100 Rated Engine:
100/35 = 2.857 Now we round down to the whole Number would be able to use 2 Jumpjets

Now a Jenner with a 300 Rated Engine:
300/35= 8.571 Rounded down would equal 8 Total JumpJets that this mech could use.

As said above I would Leave the Power Per Jump Jets to the coders in the long run. But for a General starting location:
CBT it was: (10sec Time Window)
1^st Jump Jet 30m Lateral Movement at 6m height
2^nd and every Jumpjet after the 1^st is 30m Lateral movement or 6m Height

Solaris VII (2.5sec Time Window)
1^st Jump Jet 7.5m Lateral Movement at 6m height
2^nd and every Jumpjet after the 1^st is 7.5m Lateral movement or 6m Height

[KageRyuu]

I couldn't believe it till I saw it myself but yeah, even maxed out with 5 Jump Jets in my Jenner I was spending over 75% of my fuel to jump onto the plane in River City, the plane, and wound up flying into it once or twice before determining the proper distance I would need to clear it. While on the bridge I tried a horizontal jump to the cliff side from the mid point, a jump I could make easily by feathering my jets before, which I missed by more than 30 meters, so even the horizontal thrust has been lowered though no where near as bad as the vertical thrust.

Regardless, at their current state JJ's are atrocious. no vertical lift what so ever which is the only reason I took them in the first place, on account that I already have a much more effecient means of horizontal movement, ie my mech's legs. I can only hope that they fix this obvious and glaring bug before the arrival of the Spider or god forbid the Highlander, otherwise they're going on the scrap pile with the rest of my Jump Jet using mechs.

Edited by KageRyuu, 22 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[MavRCK]

I thought the idea of jump jets in TT was that the number of jump jets affected how high you could jump... something like... 1 was 30m.. 2 was 60m.. up to 5 which was i think max 240m

Right now I have 3 or 4 JJ on my jenner variants and i can't jump to the tops of buildings

[Majorfatboy]

Since day one I've always kept the default number of jump jets on My jump-capable mechs, so pre-patch and post-patch My C1 'pult, C4 'pult, and 3D 'phract all had four jump jets. I can say without a doubt that jump power has been significantly reduced. As others have said, it takes most of My gauge just to get airborne, and makes hoping over even the smallest of obstacles a pain in the rear. The vertical lift at initial takeoff is too soft, and mechs lose to much momentum once airborne.

A little buff to the jets would be nice, devs.

[Chou Senwan]

They introduced a very powerful ECM, and people are figuring out how to counter it.

What if when the Spider comes out, they patch Jump Jets so that in 2.5 seconds a Spider can rocket up to the top of the skyscraper in Frozen City, then use directional jump jets to glide and stick the landing? Let Jenners with 5 JJs be able to hopscotch over the heads of Atlases, spin in mid-air, fire from behind, then repeat as the Atlas tries to turn around. Just make Jump Jets wildly powerful.

See how much the community complains: more than ECM, or less? I'm genuinely curious.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Chou Senwan, on 22 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

They introduced a very powerful ECM, and people are figuring out how to counter it.

What if when the Spider comes out, they patch Jump Jets so that in 2.5 seconds a Spider can rocket up to the top of the skyscraper in Frozen City, then use directional jump jets to glide and stick the landing? Let Jenners with 5 JJs be able to hopscotch over the heads of Atlases, spin in mid-air, fire from behind, then repeat as the Atlas tries to turn around. Just make Jump Jets wildly powerful.

See how much the community complains: more than ECM, or less? I'm genuinely curious.

If they make it so you can do this, with skill, then I'll use my skill to hit reverse and catch you at some point. Skill to counter skill is fine. But nerfed ability to buff a complete lack of skill and a complete lack of an understanding of the need to acquire the skill, because some players are more about racking up points to buy the next mech, is not acceptable.

And to be truthful, I'd like more jump jet maneuverability. I want DFA damage. I want light mechs to be afraid of tripping. I want them to have to pulse the jet at the landing or else they might fall. I want more consequences, but in order to have those, we'll need more latitude to express them in. We need more Jump Jet power. Tweak them sooner so they work again.

If PGI needs more telemetry data of me air-humping sky scrapers and rock walls, I can maybe get sexy screenshots.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 22 December 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[Kunae]

Please correct the jumpjet height, arc and impulse back to where they were pre-nerf. If it takes a full compliment to get there, fine(though would prefer slightly better if you're spending all that tonnage).

Please do this today.