345 replies to this topic

[Bocika]

Elder Thorn, on 20 December 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

It's not a 'hardcore' feature. It was a part of why you thought about upgrades like artemis and XL Engines. On some mechs the side torso destruction isn't a big enough issue to make you think double about the XL engine or not. Now you can just put every upgrade into your mech you want and don't give a **** about any consequences, this will lead to mechs outfitted with hightech only. What will happen when Clantech arrives? It will be mandatory to use it, because everyone will be able to use it all time. Dual Clan Gaus Cat? Hell no...

If there are upgrades (progression) in the game which can't be used by a lot of players because of the high repair cost, then a lot of those players will leave the game. I left World of Tanks because of the high repair cost at higher tiers. I felt like i have to buy premium to afford the repair cost of my t8 tanks and to save up enough for another tank. If it wasn't the case i would still play it. Also i didn't spend real money on WoT because of this, but i already bought MC credits because i see the game is going into the right direction.

[PhoenixFire55]

RNR must be a part of the game. No RNR is just a crutch that is used to prevent farming and encourage (pardon me) noobs to actually fight instead of hiding all game long. If I'm using ferro-fibres armor, XL engine and artemis missiles I expect to LOSE c-bills in that game regardless of win / loss. That c-bills loss should in future be compensted by contracts, faction payments and other things that'll come with community warfare. If no RNR is gonna be present till community warfare comes out, then I guess its ok. But if repair and rearm bills are gone forever, then sorry PGI but its a fail.

[Elder Thorn]

Bocika, on 21 December 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

If there are upgrades (progression) in the game which can't be used by a lot of players because of the high repair cost, then a lot of those players will leave the game. I left World of Tanks because of the high repair cost at higher tiers. I felt like i have to buy premium to afford the repair cost of my t8 tanks and to save up enough for another tank. If it wasn't the case i would still play it. Also i didn't spend real money on WoT because of this, but i already bought MC credits because i see the game is going into the right direction.

yeah sure, thats why Eve online has nearly no customers at all, because stuff like Faction and Officer Mods are so cheap to replace.

Just wait until Clantech is there to be used by all players and you will see what i mean. Clantech should be a sidegrade, but a mandatory upgrade, all they have left to do with it with no repair costs is to gimp it as they did with DHS, thats ********

It should be at a level, that you can use 1 upgrade no matter what, 2 if you are good and 3 if you are really good. If everyone can use every upgrade at the same time, it gets boring, because all the upgrades will be mandatory

Edited by Elder Thorn, 21 December 2012 - 01:46 AM.

[PPO Kuro]

I'm absolutely not happy with RnR being removed. Now I know the game isn't finished yet, but I'm kinda afraid where this game is going.

I know it's a commercial game and this games needs to make money in the long run, but catering to the masses will totally ruin this game.

This sound generic, but I've seen it happen way to many times with games I liked. Now technically removing RnR isn't really dumbing it down, but that how it start.

With the last few updates (mostly ECM) I'm beginning to like this game less and less. I still can't put my finger on it what precisely is making me feel this way..

[TB Freelancer]

Murrdox, on 20 December 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

I liked Repair and Rearm, and I think it SHOULD be in the game. I do think previously it R&R was perhaps too expensive, and thus the prices need tweaking, but I think it should definitely be in the system. There are quite a few reasons why.

• It fits in with the game world that maintaining Mechs should cost money.
  
• Mechs who mount expensive equipment should be more expensive to maintain. Ferro Armor, XL Engines, Endo Steel, Artemis ammunition... all these things should increase repair costs to your Mech. The most expensive Mech you own might do better on the Battlefield, but it may not make you as much money after repair costs. I think this is perfectly correct.
  
• Specialized components like Artemis ammunition should be viewed as a hidden cost of the component in addition to the space it takes up on the Mech itself.
  
• If Repair and Rearm isn't added to the game now, these disparities with equipment quality are only going to increase when more advanced technology, such as Clan Tech make it into the game. When we get to the point where you can mount Clan-Tech weapons on Mechs, these weapons should come with extremely high repair costs to balance out their power on the battlefield.

Yeah that whole mentality goes hand in hand with guys who've been doing nothing but playing premade under an incomplete system that consistently pairs them against much weaker opponents.
Most of you who liked the old system spent all your time winning because you were spending the vast majority of your time in a system that was heavily stacked in your favor.

What happens when elo comes out, and you find yourselves fighting even matches? Just quit bringing all the 'good stuff' to the field because it costs too much? Try finding a way to exploit the system? What about pug matches? Why would anyone bring an assault with good gear when the people they are playing with are a complete roll of a set of loaded dice and a much smaller mech would guarantee cbills in their account?

They removed the old economy because it was broken and had a negative affect on what happened in game. I've never lost money, but certainly would have if I didn't have my founders bonus on some of my worst matches. Sure I could drop with my Team Banzai brothers and stomp pugs all day raking in the experience and money no matter what tech I used, but we have a sense of fair play.

I also completely fail to see how clicking a repair button to repair offers any more immersion. For mechs that made money regardless of a win/loss it had nil effect on game play, on more expensive mechs that could result in a loss you'd often see those mechs hang back from engaging, see how its allies perform and if they get rofl stomped, it would run off to a dark corner and shut down.

PGI realized the economy was horked, so they fixed it. Only guys running in groups or the best solo players could consistently earn money without fail while screwing over the masses. The old economy also did have a negative impact on what happened in game, which should absolutely never have happened.

I just find the ideals, attitudes and in game behaviour of so many founder premades profoundly disappointing. They claim to be the biggest fans of the series, good citizens of the community, but the majority of their demands and actions say the opposite.

I much prefer the new economy because no one gets left behind, even if I could have very easily exploited the old one and rofl stomped newbies all day long....

[Furmansky]

I am just wondering why the devs do not tweak the numbers up and down a wee bit every patch to try to get closer to the golden middle? Instead they turn everything upside down and trash everything in different way. Like why? There should be tweaks possibly quite big ones... like many said beefore reward more personal achivements... so they did but scrapped everything else... Why they couldn't doo just that and leave R&R as it was for two weeks to see how it goes? I just don't bloody get it. Plus no extra cash for victory? Thats motivating... And to make that straight biggest preemade I ever played was me + 1 ( around 20%-25% with my brother, who would like R&R back as well ) and always try to do my best even in a lost match.

Edited by Furmansky, 21 December 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[Xendojo]

Yes to R&R in the game.

More immersion, more attachment to mechs.


Check my posts in the rewards system feedback thread.

[Atheus]

I voted "No" in this survey, since the options don't really offer my point of view. I agree with those who say R&R doesn't enhance the current game. It can wait for community warfare when the accumulation of resources and economic struggles become a more important aspect of the game. At this point in time, the game is purely meaningless, transitory clashes between 16 near strangers.

If R&R is going to return, though, it needs to be re balanced so that certain weapons do not involve ridiculous expense to run. LRM's aren't so special that a full load should cost 600k to rearm (10 tons * 60k per ton). Even with 75% free rearm that's 150k. It should never cost anywhere near that to buy ammo.

Also, one ton of any type of ammo should never cost more than 3-4x what another type of ammo costs, but comparing the cheapest AC/2 ammo with the most expensive LRM+A ammo the latter is a whopping 61.6x as expensive per ton. With ECM as prevalent as it has become, the LRM is a pretty shoddy weapon overall, so why on earth should it be so pricey compared to ballistics?

[Khushrenada]

Bocika, on 21 December 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

If there are upgrades (progression) in the game which can't be used by a lot of players because of the high repair cost, then a lot of those players will leave the game. I left World of Tanks because of the high repair cost at higher tiers. I felt like i have to buy premium to afford the repair cost of my t8 tanks and to save up enough for another tank. If it wasn't the case i would still play it. Also i didn't spend real money on WoT because of this, but i already bought MC credits because i see the game is going into the right direction.

you see that is the model of a F2P game...
you could play lower tiers to earn enough money to drive your high tier or buy another high tier, or you can buy premium and make your life easier... F2P doesn`t mean you can do everything and get everything for free, otherwise people will never pay any money for the game and after a short period of fun the devs will go bankrupt and the game is dead...

i rather have some content to need some sort of "subscription" which premium surely is, than have everything for free and then some P2W items in the ingame shop to get peoples money (which wargaming does as well, with gold ammunition for example).

TB Freelancer, on 21 December 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

I much prefer the new economy because no one gets left behind, even if I could have very easily exploited the old one and rofl stomped newbies all day long....

yeah... welcome to the world of artemis missile boats. and why? cause why the hack not!
missiles don`t cost anything anymore, so missile boats are coming back in huge numbers, be it srm or lrm.

implement a matchmaker and rofl-stomping is gone.
what does that even have to do with a broken economy system? tweak the system, as it really needed tweaking, but don`t take it out completely and destroy other balancing issues alongside with it (boating now gets really valid instead of people actually have to think about their loadouts).

Edited by Khushrenada, 21 December 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[JTAlweezy]

i like the old system, I liked being able to drop with a partially unrepaired mech.

[Atlas3060]

Removing RnR has broken certain things in my opinion:

Investment factor, I have one of each weight class which now get automagically repaired and shined up even after a horrible game. So there's no real reason for me to play as much as I did before.

Log in, get in fight,shoot, leave battle, get back in, rinse, repeat, get bored, and play another game worthwhile.
I tried enjoying games like Tribes Ascend or TF2 which work like that, but I stop after a while since I've done everything on their maps.

Immersion factor, to be honest though there's not much there to begin with due to the lack of Community Warfare.

Consequence factor, now I don't have to worry about loading myself up with the latest gizmos and playing stupidly.
Even though right now I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to fall into that trap when R&R is brought back then get stuck with bad gaming habits in mind. This kind of ties to the Investment factor. Who cares if my Dragon dies again when everything resets to repaired after the fight?

Now I know what some of you will be thinking while reading this.
Possibly I'll be screaming for the status quo, I'm blinded by 'goldvision' or whatever silly term is used in the boards, but I do understand that my situation is not that of the new people.

So this latest patch was a great step forward to bringing more people in. I applaud that, in fact I applauded that measure in the Patch Feedback thread.

However even though its a good move in bringing players in eventually you need to keep them once they've bought lots of shiny pretty rides. That's why I want Repairs and Reloads again someday in the future.

I'm not saying return it to pre-patch ways, that would be folly, but when Community Warfare comes in we need a decent compromise between those differing camps.

I am a casual player, but I'm not the casual type who want to log in, get in fight,shoot, leave battle, get back in, rinse, repeat, get bored, and play another game worthwhile.

I want to earn something bigger than the current fight of the second.

So hopefully players invested in a House, you don't need to join a corp, will be able to get free or really reduced repair/reloads for items that your House manufactures. If the meta game then allows that House a win on some world where another item is made you get that bonus still, if you lose that world then your repair/reloads on that item cost a bit more.

Lone Wolfs can have the benefit of working wherever they want with whoever they want, but they pay out of pocket. Those are the breaks when you go into business yourself.

This way the really hardcore Spreadsheet warriors can still play (Lone Wolf), while the casuals of various degrees can enjoy their game without wondering why they keep losing a lot of money even after a win.

The patch they have now is still a good open door for new folks, but I'm really hoping for R&R to come back as a better money and time sink for those that aren't earning from the ground up. Both sides spend money and PGI will hopefully find a compromise to keep both sides.

[Povier]

So far im galled about the mech builds based on gratis rearming.
Every third mech is full of LRMs and the previous infights become rare. And so are light mechs.
LRM boats rule the battlefield and now I die excessively often from LRM.

It takes 4 seconds to break the cataphracts front torso. 1 - looking out of the cover. 2 - incomming missile. 3 - stopping, walking back, AMS 3 Missles. 4 - 2/3 of 60 Missles hit...

[WVAnonymous]

PPO Kuro, on 21 December 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

This sound generic, but I've seen it happen way to many times with games I liked. Now technically removing RnR isn't really dumbing it down, but that how it start.

No, it really is dumbing it down. I pulled XL's out of a number of builds when I decided the earnings after matches were too low. I put them all back in, and used my "Cadet bonus" to buy a 385XL for my Awesome. If I had to pay to repair that monster, I would likely not use it, even though I think it will be a real advantage in Conquest mode once I figure out how to pilot it effectively.

If you have no consequences after the build, it is removing an element of thoughtfulness. Even low R&R costs would at least make you think about your build.

[MaxllmuS]

Dont want repair back!

[Ptownsen]

i pray repair and rearm cost are coming back. i hope it will find a way with the comunity warfare where merc units get her CB with Contracts they accept. so repair rearm in contract battles and no repair rearm in little scirmishes when new ones learn the game.

[Karenai]

Voted no only because giving several options for one thing and only one option for annother in a multiple choice scenario constitutes manipulation and a very crude way to push own propaganda.

[Deadoon]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 December 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

RNR must be a part of the game. No RNR is just a crutch that is used to prevent farming and encourage (pardon me) noobs to actually fight instead of hiding all game long. If I'm using ferro-fibres armor, XL engine and artemis missiles I expect to LOSE c-bills in that game regardless of win / loss. That c-bills loss should in future be compensted by contracts, faction payments and other things that'll come with community warfare. If no RNR is gonna be present till community warfare comes out, then I guess its ok. But if repair and rearm bills are gone forever, then sorry PGI but its a fail.

Let me tell you the downsides of every one of those "upgrades"
XL engines, side torso deaths
Ferro - 14 slots used 90% armor weight
Artemis- 1 ton less ammo carried due to slots and tonnage used
BAM, not so attractive anymore eh?

I used basic upgrades, endo and Dhs and I could still lose money on a loss if I was merely unlucky in my position due to enemy tactics.

Povier, on 21 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

So far im galled about the mech builds based on gratis rearming.
Every third mech is full of LRMs and the previous infights become rare. And so are light mechs.
LRM boats rule the battlefield and now I die excessively often from LRM.

It takes 4 seconds to break the cataphracts front torso. 1 - looking out of the cover. 2 - incomming missile. 3 - stopping, walking back, AMS 3 Missles. 4 - 2/3 of 60 Missles hit...

Yes because running into a suppression weapon is such a grand, perfect and smart thing to do!
Of course suppression fire to keep your enemies heads down has no place or meaning on the battlefield, it is able to be avoided after all by keeping your heads down...
Let them waste their ammo and cover jump, if you are without cover, you f-ed up. Brawling is just as important as fire support. I'd suggest giving lrm only 1 damage and doubling their ammo if it were my way of keeping them as a support weapon.

[wussie]

I'm making just as much per match on average as I was before, sometimes more, sometimes less. Now I have more ammo since I went with the 75% free in the past. I am not using my premium time for a while so there were times when I almost took a loss money wise during a match. I'm much happier with this system.

[Edan Dettwiler]

Voted to keep the R&R away, until its included/merged in the upcoming CW.

I run only Atlas chassis and I got really upset by dealing consistently more damage than my entire team combined and being the only one digging myself into debt.

Also, I can only play for 3 matches per day and I don't have time to spend on grinding : I grind enougth at work! Games are supposed to be play! And of course we cant trade MCs for CBs...

So I thank the DEVs (pronouced god) that now I can run my variants and actually get paid more for my performance! (or paid at all to take all the incoming fire!)

It was either that or give a bigger share of the earnings to the heavier mechs : Would a company hiring mechs really pay the same price to hire a Raven vs an Atlas?

I like the new way things work and I'm sure R&R will come back when everything will work well for all player types.

[PhoenixFire55]

Deadoon, on 21 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Let me tell you the downsides of every one of those "upgrades"
XL engines, side torso deaths
Ferro - 14 slots used 90% armor weight
Artemis- 1 ton less ammo carried due to slots and tonnage used
BAM, not so attractive anymore eh?

Wrong, still attractive ... smth like XL 350-370 instead of standart 350-370 would save you like 20 tons. Those 20 tons you can use for extra ammo you lose coz of artemis or extra weapons and armor or whatever. Or you can say upgrade from your standart 250 to XL 350 and add a lot of speed this way, which in turn will make you run much faster. And trust me, the faster you move, the more weapons and heat sinks you have the harder it for your enemy to kill you even through the side torso either because you are fast and hard to hit, or simply because you will kill them faster. Besides, I'm not so sure that artemis will actually make you lose ammo, yes you'll have less ammo but more of them missiles will hit due to increased accuracy.

Repair and rearm is an essential part of BT - you wanna use artemis, be prepared to pay 100-120k rearm every game, you wanna use MadCat, be prepared to pay 24m for it, and 200k to repair it. As I said, no RNR is just a crutch, and yeah it seems to be less afk'ers now and people actually try to fight, but like every crutch PGI uses now it must be gone sooner or later.