1017 replies to this topic

[Riddler9884]

The current form of ECM, has some great attributes.
1. It gives non ECM mechs incentive to sticking with the group and not going off on their own lone wolfing it.
2. It an effective counter to teams made up mostly of LRM boats

I have been playing for the last few days; the most I have seen is 3 LRM boats on a team and that group had a couple of Mechs to draw the enemy out of the ECM bubble.

I read through some of the previous thread on ECM in the last patch. Every once in a while I keep seeing people mention that it pretty much does too much and imposes too little on the mech build and, I agree. I never played the TT game, but I am going to try and approach this from a different angle, although I’m sure the concept has been brought up.

- In the MMO like Guild Wars and World of Warcraft there have been extensive balancing, but in the end the general strategy would be that pvp parties would consist of be 8 players, 6 damage dealers and 2 healers. Although there are no healers in MWO, ECM carriers could be considered as healers.

- The healers in these groups usually had most of his equipment and skills setup for healing, severely limiting their offensive power. If to carry an ECM you lost 50%-75% of your offensive ability, premade groups would probably limit ECM Mechs to 1 or 2. Having 3 or more Mechs with limited fire power for no other purpose than to cover teammates and you run the risk of not having enough offensive power to take on the other team.

Changes up to here will suppress some of the complaints and force people to adapt load outs and tactics, instead of spamming 8 ECMS or 8 LRMS.

Even with these changes people will still gripe about ECM but there is probably one last change that might need to take place.

-Back to the MMO comparison, healers had either distinctive clothing or their skills would create some visual identification that they are doing the role of healing. In other words you should be able to tell ECM Mechs apart from the rest.

Examples
- Light Blue(or whatever color) dome showing the coverage and in the center is the ECM Carrier, only visible by sight with no radar signature or any way to lock on to it.

- Some sort of arc connecting all the affected mechs to the ECM

- New Vision mode, showing where the ecm is at but unable to distinguish how many in the group.
(leads to possible having a light mech carry ecm as decoy?)
________________________________________________

There is another option:
- Make ECM take a ballistic or missile hard point.
- It fires strait up (kind of like fireworks) and covers the same area the bubble does for 15 seconds or a set period of time.
- Make it consume ammo.

It would still require some balancing and probably could still be abused.

Edited by Riddler9884, 22 December 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Riddler9884]

I didn't go into the specifics of how to limit the firepower in my last post. One Idea, atleast on the atlas take ALL the slots on the center left and right torso. They have to load weapons on the arms and heatsinks on head legs and torso

[Gremlich Johns]

Something else, the addition of ECM on scout mechs is intended to allow them to perform their functions as scouts, not to allow the light mech scouts to provide a cloak for the main force. I have pointed out before that when ECM is on, everybody is limited by its effects, not just opposing mechs. If you are within the ECM shield limits (cuz that is what it is being used for) then you can only use, ballistics, energy and dumb fire missiles. If you are outside the shield, you cannot see your opponents on your radar. but, you should be able to put your reticle at the ground underneath your opponent and fire your missiles at that point. Additionally, NARCs should not be affected by ECM, because it is a radio beacon. If it is affected in game, then any radio transmissions, whether ingame or third-party, should be negatively affected by the ECM effects.

And when one ECM suite encounters an enemy ECM, the effects are exacerbated, not negated.

If you are calling something ECM and its effects are not based on sound science and Physics, then it should not be called ECM, it should be called a "cloak".

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 22 December 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[Falanin]

The only thing that bothers me about current ECM implementation is that I can't shoot LRMs at targets I can clearly see right out in the open.

Make it take longer for me to lock on, sure.

Make it so that my teammates can't use my lock-on data to fire missiles of their own? Sure.


But have you EVER seen dumb-fired LRMs actually HIT anything? Ever? The time to target is so absurdly long that it's quite possible to dodge them when they're HOMING, much less when they shoot straight. Hell, with dumb-fire, they don't even have to be DODGING. "Ok, lets lead the target by 200m,..." (3.3s later) "Hmm, they turned to shoot that other guy. Guess I don't get to do damage this volley"


TLDR: If I can see it (and I'm not IN the enemy ECM bubble), I should be able to get some form of lock.

[CatHerder]

MadaO, on 22 December 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

The effect [of ECM] is negligible for non-lock weapons.

Really? Have you ever tried to hit a 136KPH Jenner with a large laser at 100m? There's a reason people complain about the netcode and "Lag Shield" (look it up in the forums).

My whole argument about ECM is that the Lag Shield makes it far worse than it otherwise would be. If the lag shield weren't so bad, you'd take out an enemy light in no-time flat. Being what it is, though, it makes ECM lights nigh-impregnable beasties that can only be killed with counter-ECM *AND* guided weapons.

TAG, therefore, is also broken because it's also susceptible to the lag shield because you have to HOLD the TAG beam on target to get a lock, and keep it locked to get a hit. If that were the case, then why bother with TAG? I'd rather shove a LLAS/ERLAS up their scrawny li'l butts... Or a PPC... etc...

So: in order for ECM to be less of a problem, one of the following two (ideally both) would have to happen:

• Fix the Lag Shield on light mechs
  
• Remove the bubble on disrupt

Since fixing the lag shield is much more involved and difficult, and may never be properly done, I say the low hanging fruit is removing the bubble. If, later on, they can really fix the lag shield issue, then they can re-add the bubble. Otherwise, Lag Shield + ECM Bubble = Light Mechs defiling whole lances of assault mechs (yes, I've seen it happen, to somewhat-competent pilots even)!

Edited by CatHerder, 22 December 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Dewil]

An I the only one here that have a problem with my TAG?

I can target an enemy ECM mech with my tag and the hollow red triangle shows up above them. I press "R" and Betty says "Target aquired" but it still takes close to 2 seconds before the hollow red triangle becomes a full red triangle. Then it takes additional seconds before I even get info about the mech I targetted.

Very annoying because it takes over 5 seconds before I get any info about where the mech is damaged and in 5 seconds you can deal a lot of damage. In the meantime he's had full info about me for those 5 seconds (because he will see me first and have info on me before I find him with my TAG).

Not to mention that all those light mechs with ECM are gone before the triangle becomes full so I have no clue at all which mech it was (Alpha, Bravo or Charlie etc)

Is that extra 2 second delay intentional or a bug?

[HiplyRustic]

So far today not one match has not been about ECM. Not. One.

That, all by itself, should speak volumes. That it apparently does not also speaks volumes.

[Mawai]

Part of the problem is that SSRM are still overpowered especially in numbers and ECM is hiding this fact. There are not as many streak cats on the field because they can't rely on being able to use their weapons due to ECM and not because the weapons are any less effective. In a match without ECM streak cats are still a very powerful alternative.

LRMs may also still have balance issues though they are closer to where they should be ... but again the ability of ECM to hide signatures and block lock-ons unless tagged makes it difficult to properly balance these. When LRMs are given free reign they can still be brutal. I dropped in a PUG in my founders Atlas on river city ... no ECM on my team. The opposing side had a couple of LRM mechs which destroyed my Atlas before I could reach any cover (I was crossing the river). I didn't even do any damage in the match.

ECM is a band aid solution for balancing weapons that require a lock. Organized and coordinated teams can use LRMs and SSRMs to almost full effectiveness ... others not so much.

As counters to ECM ... I would suggest the following:

1) NARC beacon counters ECM - a NARCed mech loses all ECM benefits and is visible on the map (this is explicitly counter to the Battletech rules but ECM is so effective against any long range fire requiring a lock in MWO that if you are going to change how ECM works you might as well choose to change how other technologies work - ECM isn't supposed to hide mechs).

2) Let TAG operate from inside an ECM sphere. A TAG laser "lights" up an enemy mech. It doesn't make it easier for just you to detect ... it makes it easier for everyone. It is a laser and is unaffected by EM interference or other sorts of jamming. It's function does not depend on inter-mech coordination or C3 so there is no reason why its function should be affected by ECM. It is difficult to TAG fast mechs from long range ... at least with TAG a fast mech could chase and TAG another fast ECM mech.

I think these two counters would make both NARC and TAG useful and with some team coordination would increase the vulnerability of fast light ECM mechs ... if they continue to refuse to adjust ECM then I think they need to increase the effectiveness of the counter measures.

[Marcus Tanner]

Vashramire, on 19 December 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

From Sarna


I would understand this to mean that any and all jamming would happen at or within 180m. Possibly nullifying BAP and target sharing with C3 and Artemis at all ranges but still allowing missile locks (at current 25% increased lock time for enemy being under ECM) but limiting them to LOS. There is a great deal of leniency in how to read its functionality and I'm not sure what would truely make it "balanced" since everyone seems to have different views on how OP it is and how they would like it fixed, but how I described if think would be relatively fair for everyone if not a step in the right direction.

Sarna is wrong, and not in little ways.

ECM specifically does not affect targeting computers. It also does not affect sensors, unless you're talking about advanced sensor suites like Beagle.

---

Having said that, it's effects are restricted to enemies within 180m, yes.

---

By the way, ECM affecting lock-on times is also something PGI pulled out of their butts. If you want to balance streaks and LRMS, then balance streaks and LRMs instead of making them worth less than their weight against some teams (ECM-heavy) and worth more than their weight against other teams (ECM-light).

Instead of using ECM to nerf streaks and LRMs, cut out the middle man and have lock-on weapons be less effective against everyone, but equally effective regardless of ECM.

[LynxFury]

Tarys, on 21 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Before ECM i loved my Raven 3L. With the introduction i still loved it and was eager to give those fotm streakcats the well deserved payback. Right now i don´t like to play it any longer because it is now fotm light mech number 1 for all players who can´t even hit a standing atlas ... as well it sucks to run against those so called elitest premade players that are running around with 4 of them (yeah i know - looking for some competition / training for 8vs8 and so on).

I have similar thoughts. The ravens were the first chassis I mastered up because I liked the size, lore, and looks and enjoyed them in prior games. I was willing to accept their downsides such as inability to boat large banks of lasers, lack of jump jets and low stock speed.

I was hoping they live to their potential as an EW platform, but always been a sort of odd ball mech made for a thinking person's game.

But two things happened...the crazy easy button easy to lock streaks which made streaks an easy choice over srm6, followed by the easy button cloaking device ECM.

The types of thinking decisions such as (if the game were closer to what it should be):

-Do I turn on my BAP to pick up targets but also make me easier to find because I'm broadcasting a powerful signal...best to leave off all radar while crossing this open and than take a radar look near those rocks....

-I'm running with two of my lance mates but don't want them to know there's three of us here.... I turn on ECM...they know there's something out their, but have no distant nor number.

-I sneaker round radar off and tag an awesome from the side....he doesnt' see me and two LRM salvo slam into him. I screw up and he sees the tag beam hit the building in front of him and turns to face me. 60LRM are heading my way I'm in trouble. Do I hit ECM and announce my general direction to his entire lance while breaking the lock...or can just run like heck and hope to survive that first salvo.

Quote

While i wouldn´t change the way ECM works i would reduce it to one mech able to carry it -> Cicada.

yes it's an excellent all around platform suitable for everything but missile boating. On the other hand the Raven was built for the EW role and should the last mech to loose it.

[AAV Mage]

Just a few thoughts on tweaks:

1. Allow LRMs to be beam riders, meaning they go where the TAG laser goes. It would allow loft shots into a valley and let a Scout do the terminal guidance.
2. Let beagle give it normal advantages instead of being NERF'd completely by ECM. Beagle could easily be using something beside the radar to target. That way a Beagle becomes a super sensor and allows the equip'd mech to counter a fair part of ECM effects, but only for that mech.

[SmilingElf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there talk of PPCs having an EMP like effect at some point? And shouldn't that disrupt the ECM for some period of time? In theory, a long enough period of time to identify and remove the applicable mech?

(Admittedly, hitting a light mech with a PPC with the current net code is not what I would call a reliable solution...)

[ltwally]

CatHerder, on 22 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Really? Have you ever tried to hit a 136KPH Jenner with a large laser at 100m? There's a reason people complain about the netcode and "Lag Shield" (look it up in the forums).

Only 136kph? That's a slow-poke.

Seriously, tho... you should be able to score at least a partial hit using a Large Laser, given the beam duration of 1 second.

The problem you're likely having is that it's a small(-er) target moving very quickly, and it is, and should be, difficult to keep your targeting reticle on it while it's moving (in a direction other than straight at you or straight away from you), let alone keep the beam on a specific location for that long.

At this point, most of the difficulties with ballistics hitting high-speed light-mechs is not net-code - unless you have a poor connection to their servers. If that is the case, there's little they can do about that until they roll out more co-locations. It's just that hitting a fast-moving, small target (that is probably moving erratically on top of everything) is, and should be, darn difficult. There's also the projectile velocity and the firing delay.

'Course, none of that really has anything to do with ECM.

ECM isn't broken for light mechs, or because of light mechs.

ECM is broken all by itself.

[ltwally]

Mawai, on 22 December 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Part of the problem is that SSRM are still overpowered especially in numbers and ECM is hiding this fact. There are not as many streak cats on the field because they can't rely on being able to use their weapons due to ECM and not because the weapons are any less effective. In a match without ECM streak cats are still a very powerful alternative.

LRMs may also still have balance issues though they are closer to where they should be ... but again the ability of ECM to hide signatures and block lock-ons unless tagged makes it difficult to properly balance these. When LRMs are given free reign they can still be brutal. I dropped in a PUG in my founders Atlas on river city ... no ECM on my team. The opposing side had a couple of LRM mechs which destroyed my Atlas before I could reach any cover (I was crossing the river). I didn't even do any damage in the match.

ECM is a band aid solution for balancing weapons that require a lock. Organized and coordinated teams can use LRMs and SSRMs to almost full effectiveness ... others not so much.

As counters to ECM ... I would suggest the following:

1) NARC beacon counters ECM - a NARCed mech loses all ECM benefits and is visible on the map (this is explicitly counter to the Battletech rules but ECM is so effective against any long range fire requiring a lock in MWO that if you are going to change how ECM works you might as well choose to change how other technologies work - ECM isn't supposed to hide mechs).

2) Let TAG operate from inside an ECM sphere. A TAG laser "lights" up an enemy mech. It doesn't make it easier for just you to detect ... it makes it easier for everyone. It is a laser and is unaffected by EM interference or other sorts of jamming. It's function does not depend on inter-mech coordination or C3 so there is no reason why its function should be affected by ECM. It is difficult to TAG fast mechs from long range ... at least with TAG a fast mech could chase and TAG another fast ECM mech.

I think these two counters would make both NARC and TAG useful and with some team coordination would increase the vulnerability of fast light ECM mechs ... if they continue to refuse to adjust ECM then I think they need to increase the effectiveness of the counter measures.

My feeling is that ECM should protect the ECM carrier and friendlies within 180m as follows:

• Disrupt/counter/negate hostile Artemis IV
  
• Disrupt/counter/negate hostile Beagle
  
• Disrupt/counter/negate hostile NARC
  
• Disrupt/counter/negate hostile TAG
  
• Slow down lock on self and friendlies, regardless of range of the enemy
  
• Speed up lock loss on self and friendlies, regardless of range of the enemy

And should also, for the ECM carrier only:

• Prevent enemies (that are within 180m) from achieving lock

Additionally, I strongly recommend the dev's create modules, available for all mechs, that counter/negate ECM -- but only in regards to the module owner.

Likewise, modules that counter/negate Artemis and Beagle might be good ideas.

[ltwally]

SmilingElf, on 22 December 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there talk of PPCs having an EMP like effect at some point? And shouldn't that disrupt the ECM for some period of time? In theory, a long enough period of time to identify and remove the applicable mech?

(Admittedly, hitting a light mech with a PPC with the current net code is not what I would call a reliable solution...)

Strictly speaking, that's not cannon. (As if that really matters) It's just fluff.

That said, it would be a nice secondary effect if PPC/ER-PPC had a minor EMP effect. The issue there is how powerful it is against the core sensors / targeting systems. It should be pretty weak, there. But if they wanted to make it a little more substantial against add-on equipment (Beagle, ECM, etc), that might be ok. Just so long as it's not too severe (PGI has a tendency to over-do things, cause an uproar, and then nerf them down a little at a time until people stop choking on them.)

[ICEFANG13]

Dewil, on 22 December 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

An I the only one here that have a problem with my TAG?

I can target an enemy ECM mech with my tag and the hollow red triangle shows up above them. I press "R" and Betty says "Target aquired" but it still takes close to 2 seconds before the hollow red triangle becomes a full red triangle. Then it takes additional seconds before I even get info about the mech I targetted.

Very annoying because it takes over 5 seconds before I get any info about where the mech is damaged and in 5 seconds you can deal a lot of damage. In the meantime he's had full info about me for those 5 seconds (because he will see me first and have info on me before I find him with my TAG).

Not to mention that all those light mechs with ECM are gone before the triangle becomes full so I have no clue at all which mech it was (Alpha, Bravo or Charlie etc)

Is that extra 2 second delay intentional or a bug?

This happens to me all the time too, its really annoying (lookie everyone, TAG counters ECM so hard!)

steelblueskies, on 21 December 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

just solodrop pugged an assault and had icefang on team by chance (waves again). wanna guess enemy team comp? hint. there were four raven 3l with streaks.

we had one. that was 5/16ths of the match, one chassis.

we won btw, thanks to a combination of disconnect, black screen, and fps bug on the enemy team leaving them down three. still ended with 5 deaths. yep. ecm continues to be just fine. right.

Haha yeah I saw you, it was groovy

That game I dropped in my Jenner-D, I'm a great Jenner pilot, I carry 2 Streaks (I feel its important I can kill other lights), and 3 mediums (mostly for DPS on heavier targets to help my teammates), and a TAG, even with no LRMs on team (there usually isn't any more anyway). Does anyone remember when people complained about Jenner-D? Oh wait, they still do, those turds. The Jenner-D is the most limited in its build options, it has 3 that it can do that other mechs cannot do better (but can do equally well).

2SSRM2s (and 4 energy weapons)
2SRM4s (and 4 energy weapons)
2LRM5s (and 4 energy weapons)

Every other one can be better done with the Jenner-K (ironic considering how much hate it gets). Yeah look how great those choices are, and now SSRMs are worthless on non-ECM lights (except in the old matches, those were the days, more variance in mechs!) I actually ran the 2LRM5 today, because I really miss my Jenner-D, I miss playing it cause it was so fun and it was my favorite mech, not because it was the best or anything like that. The Jenner-D is worthless now. Every single build I did not list can be better done by another light mech and then done better too.

There is no balance in ECM, I love ECM, I want it in game, but its too strong, and the counters aren't the answer (OP vs OP, lets make other weapons worthless!). I really hope they remove and fix it.

Someone on PGI, please explain 2 things:

Why do you think its balanced right now? Please be very explanatory, as ECM has no disadvantages, the mechs that can use it are great, and it weighs 1.5 tons and takes 2 slots, I can name disadvantages for everything else in the game, everything else.

What in the world was it like when you thought it was too strong? I suspect it was available on all mechs, ECM right now is completely OP, and I can't imagine anyone putting it in game like this, let alone what it was like! It must have been if enemy mechs (without ECM) looked at you, they blew up.

[Blood78]

Best way to get PGI to address ECM is to abuse the hell out of it. Form 4 or 8 man premade ECM team (commando or raven). When you move at top speed and jam everyone, streak/srm everyone to death, AND abuse lack of collison...after enough goon wins like that ECM will be addressed VERY quickly.

This will probably also get lack of collison addressed as well...

I really do would prefer if PGI spend more time balancing and fixing long surviving bugs (black/yellow screen, overheat bug, lost/forzen radar bug, no hud bug, etc.) rather than releasing new mechs. At this point, I haven't spent my MC or unpaused my premium time because it's too buggy and my core needs are not being met. Core needs being balanced game with stability.

Edit: Please note that due to ECM, lack of collison, it has immediate affect on the battlefield in following ways.

- LRM is rarity, not much IDF
- Not much IDF = builds that was easily countered by IDF such as dual ac20 Cat or SRM 6x6 Cat are more prevalent and run into them a lot.
- Unless it's trial jenner, everyone else runs commando or raven as light scout with ECM and streaks
- StreakCAT is rarity, few hybrid (2-4 Streak, 2-4 SRM 4 or 6)
- Lot more win by cap and MWO is now sometimes referred as Cap Warrior Online (because ECM allows easier sneaking and lack of any other form of match available yet)
- 8 man premade rely a lot on ECM. Team that brings more ECM typically has higher probabilty of win. If you don't believe me, check your metrics I'm pretty sure it'll show that.
- Cicada ran through 4 mech in the cave in frozen city. Atlas > Cataphract > Hunch > Hunch by pretty much running directly through us. Followed by Raven...who did die because he or she was alphaed by SRM6x3.
- Commando was leg humping a slow Atlas and fired at Atlas without any repercussion. When he got tired of leg humping, he simply ran through the Atlas and shoot from back then to leg hump again (on 1 on 1). Didn't even bother to circle strafe with missiles or lasers...

http://mwomercs.com/...61#entry1605261

Edited by Blood78, 22 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

Blood78, on 22 December 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Best way to get PGI to address ECM is to abuse the hell out of it. Form 4 or 8 man premade ECM team (commando or raven). When you move at top speed and jam everyone, streak/srm everyone to death, AND abuse lack of collison...after enough goon wins like that ECM will be addressed VERY quickly.

Are you sure?

This patch the devs were convinced that upping the duration of Narc from 15s to 20s would make it a fair choice for its tonnage compared to ECM.

They already saw a patch where the 8v8 environment seemed to consist of at *least* 50% ECM carriers. They didn't think that was evidence of a problem.

[Xendojo]

Marcus Tanner, on 23 December 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

Are you sure?

This patch the devs were convinced that upping the duration of Narc from 15s to 20s would make it a fair choice for its tonnage compared to ECM.

They already saw a patch where the 8v8 environment seemed to consist of at *least* 50% ECM carriers. They didn't think that was evidence of a problem.

The timing mechanic on the beacon needs to go. Make the beacon last till the component its attached to is destroyed. This also makes the fact that NARC is a short range direct fire weapon make sense, worth the tonnage.

EDIT:Making it a counter to ECM as well would IMO be a good idea.

Edited by Xendojo, 23 December 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Haha NARC is so so so so terrible, it makes me wonder if they are playing the same game. Even if it countered ECM while on the mech, the 20-30 seconds and required lock on make it so bad for its tonnage. It really needs a performance buff, not a duration buff (although I am a fan of both, more EW is good).