1017 replies to this topic

[ShadowSpirit]

hammerreborn, on 27 December 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

The matter at hand is you're wrong. You can argue ECM is a game definer, you know, using facts. Like nullifying too many systems for little cost, or turning the game into a brawlfest. These are legitimate, factual gripes.

I believe I mentioned those in a previous post.

Quote

This is just wrong. 100% I don't care how pedantic you want to be it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. Anything within 200m is targetable that is normally targetable. So saying you can't target a damn thing is just a lie.

Are you playing the same game that I am? Nothing inside (while you are outside) the bubble can be targetted unless it has been tagged or countered. You lose lock even if tag is lost for a second where as regaining lock takes a significantly longer amount of time once tag has been regained.

The entire radar bubble is a terrible implementation and I won't go into why because we all have heard the reasons for and against it.

Quote

Also 90% wrong. The only lock immunity occurs inside the enemies 180m ECM bubble, otherwise, there is no effect on streaks/LRMS ability to lock, especially if assisted by a mech with TAG. Seeing most people still use them to great effect, saying they are "out" is also incorrect. Harder to use is a factual statement, that they are out is not.

/shakes head

Quote

Caustic Valley, I'm sure you're using heat vision to see those ECM mechs. Also wrong.

There you go again.

Quote

Normal viewing and night vision are also perfectly good counters (night mainly being useful in river city night). Forest, river city day, and frozen city night have clean sight lines heat vision doesn't really add any bonuses other than allowing you to see just a little farther than normal range (I.e. sniping mechs in the river you wouldn't be able to target even without ECM)

I'd agree with you IF they didn't have such a heavy blur/filter on most of the maps. The only reasonably clear maps are the winter night map and maybe forest colony but even that map at range is blurry as hell.

Quote

Not true, as evident in every single match where you will see cataphracts, stalkers, and hunchbacks.

You are saying ECM in the tabletop game did MORE or are you saying the current ECM implementation has further or has in no way diversified the mech selection? I'd have to disagree and I think most people in this forum can draw their own conclusions based on their drop experience.


Thanks.


Edit: inside to outside

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 27 December 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[hammerreborn]

ICEFANG13, on 27 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

I never said they did, but they do remove 40% of weapons systems, LRM, SSRM, SRM, Lasers, Direct Fire weapons (PPC/Ballistics).

Okay, now you're not worth listening to either. They remove 50% of weapons when I group them as missles and not missles!

Quote

The Commando is liability? Please, its the best missile light mech, and it has ECM, its far better then any other non-ECM light.

I love Commandos, they die so easy. One salvo from a Jenner can nearly core it if they Commando is running an XL engine. 2-3 alphas to kill or completely neuter.

Quote

The Cicada is an excellent medium, and the 3M can carry 4 medium lasers, 1A/C-2, 2 tons of ammo, and near max armor and move around 120, that's a good build.

And will get eaten alive by a Raven or Jenner, or any of the mediums the cicada got paired up against.

Quote

Lastly, this 'argument' fails to recognize that 3Ls are the best light by far, and D-DCs are great Atlas. You can't say it works half the time and not the other half, especially when all 4 are great mechs. I can name off 4 mechs that are not only inferior, they are completely inferior and there is no reason to bring them:
Cicada-3C, Raven-2X. The 3 inferior Stalker mechs, (non 5S and 3F), heck that's five, there is no reason to run those mechs, every build they can do can be done better or equally well by another mech (admittedly, the Cicada-3C is best for the 4 machine gun build...).

There will always be inferior and superior mechs. And I disagree that the 3L is the best light. Best ECM mech, for sure, but I put a Jenner-D and F at the same level as the 3L in a pure mech vs mech comparison.

And to be honest what does this have anything to do with ECM? ECM is overpowered because the Raven 2x is a piece of ****? That has nothing to do with it, even if the 2x got ECM no one would use it.

Quote

That's not at all how ECM works, wasted tonnage? Hardly, let me put this in perspective for you, if they bring 1 LRM 20 (10 tons, plus a minimum of 1 ton ammo) that is waste if you have 8 ECM (12 tons), and that's it, unless you have 8 ECM to counter theirs. ECM is a total arms race, if you don't have more in a fight, they can counter all of yours, and they have ECM coverage, excellent balance no? Rock beats rock, paper, and scissors.

That's the point? One team wastes tonnage completely by bringing ECM mechs, and that one being the team with less ECM. If you brought 7 ECM mechs, that's 10.5 tons of wasted tonnage, if the other team brought 8, by your argument. Meanwhile, if a team brings 8 ECM mechs (lets say 4 fatlasses and 4 ravens), and the other team brings 0, and instead brings a 8 cataphracts with a mix of lbx-10s to raven kill, and acs/guasses for the D-DCs, not only is that 11 wasted tons for ECMs that's not giving any advantage, but also the loss of tonnage of raven vs cataphract.

Quote

If you bring 8 D-DCs, and they do not bring 8 Raven-3Ls, they will probably lose, 8 all staying back at base is nearly impossible to kill, and they probably have 8 ECM mechs, which means your little strike team of lights will be decimated by their ECM superiority. See how this is ECM that and ECM this? That is the discussion, because if you do not bring ECM to a match, you are a liability.

Uh...if it was 8 Atlas Ks vs 8 not atlases, with equal skill I'd take the 8 Atlases to win everytime. How is this an argument that stacking the biggest mech in the game and just camping the base is a reason ECM is overpowered. Being cheesy as **** has nothing to do with ECM.

Quote

Jump Jets weren't always used when they weighted half a ton, now they have been nerfed, worse than before, and they weigh 2.5 tons and have 5 slots. Advantages:
You can hover in air for a short time and scale small buildings.

Jump Jets are being fixed. I withhold judgement until I see what they are supposed to do, not what they currently suck at.

Quote

If some 8 man brings 8 Gauss cats, I would laugh so hard as they get destroyed, ECM even works on them, it negates the ability to target mechs fast enough to tell where to shoot at, and guess what beats that really easily? 4 light mechs (ie 3Ls), capping their base, or just killing them all, 8 snipers does not a team make.

BUT I WAS JUST TOLD HOW AWESOME HEAT VISION IS FOR NEGATING ECM. It can't be both the only counter and completely ******* useless. Get your talking points straight.

Quote

You still have given me no disadvantages to ECM. If it was allowed on all mechs, why would I not put it on my mech?

That's because you can't hear anything over the sounds of a million crybabies wailing about ECM.

[hammerreborn]

ShadowSpirit, on 27 December 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

I believe I mentioned those in a previous post.





Are you playing the same game that I am? Nothing inside (while you are outside) the bubble can be targetted unless it has been tagged or countered. You lose lock even if tag is lost for a second where as regaining lock takes a significantly longer amount of time once tag has been regained.

The entire radar bubble is a terrible implementation and I won't go into why because we all have heard the reasons for and against it.





/shakes head




There you go again.



I'd agree with you IF they didn't have such a heavy blur/filter on most of the maps. The only reasonably clear maps are the winter night map and maybe forest colony but even that map at range is blurry as hell.



You are saying ECM in the tabletop game did MORE or are you saying the current ECM implementation has further or has in no way diversified the mech selection? I'd have to disagree and I think most people in this forum can draw their own conclusions based on their drop experience.


Thanks.


Edit: inside to outside

In the spirit of your argument skills in not disproving any of my statements:

/shakes head

At least ICEFANG makes arguments worth responding to

[ICEFANG13]

hammerreborn, on 27 December 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Okay, now you're not worth listening to either. They remove 50% of weapons when I group them as missles and not missles!



I love Commandos, they die so easy. One salvo from a Jenner can nearly core it if they Commando is running an XL engine. 2-3 alphas to kill or completely neuter.



And will get eaten alive by a Raven or Jenner, or any of the mediums the cicada got paired up against.



There will always be inferior and superior mechs. And I disagree that the 3L is the best light. Best ECM mech, for sure, but I put a Jenner-D and F at the same level as the 3L in a pure mech vs mech comparison.

And to be honest what does this have anything to do with ECM? ECM is overpowered because the Raven 2x is a piece of ****? That has nothing to do with it, even if the 2x got ECM no one would use it.



That's the point? One team wastes tonnage completely by bringing ECM mechs, and that one being the team with less ECM. If you brought 7 ECM mechs, that's 10.5 tons of wasted tonnage, if the other team brought 8, by your argument. Meanwhile, if a team brings 8 ECM mechs (lets say 4 fatlasses and 4 ravens), and the other team brings 0, and instead brings a 8 cataphracts with a mix of lbx-10s to raven kill, and acs/guasses for the D-DCs, not only is that 11 wasted tons for ECMs that's not giving any advantage, but also the loss of tonnage of raven vs cataphract.



Uh...if it was 8 Atlas Ks vs 8 not atlases, with equal skill I'd take the 8 Atlases to win everytime. How is this an argument that stacking the biggest mech in the game and just camping the base is a reason ECM is overpowered. Being cheesy as **** has nothing to do with ECM.



Jump Jets are being fixed. I withhold judgement until I see what they are supposed to do, not what they currently suck at.



BUT I WAS JUST TOLD HOW AWESOME HEAT VISION IS FOR NEGATING ECM. It can't be both the only counter and completely ******* useless. Get your talking points straight.



That's because you can't hear anything over the sounds of a million crybabies wailing about ECM.

Oh good I'm not worth listening to, that doesn't make any sense, like most of what you said. Missiles and non missiles? What are you crazy? Lasers and ballistics work very differently, like SRMs and SSRMs, you must not play very many different mechs.

If you are dying so quick in a commando, you are a poor pilot. They are frail mechs, but running into every one and dying is not good design, plus if you see a light mech that you cannot beat, you should run away correct?

So it doesn't beat a couple types of mechs? You just said the commando will get eaten by a couple alphas, but all of a sudden, a Jenner is as strong as an Atlas, you aren't keeping things straight. Sure it doesn't have an edge in a one on one light fight, unless your opponent is packing missiles. If you have 4 energy weapons, and a ballistic, and ECM, and the Jenner only has 4 energy, see how that works?

If you put the Jenner-D at the same level of ECM Raven-3L, you are a fool. The 3L was comparable before ECM, now its not even close. If you cannot make that simple connection, then I could see why you think ECM is not OP. How many Raven-3Ls do you see in 8 mans? In PUGS? Compare them to Jenner-Ds. A Jenner D will lose almost every time it fights a good ECM Raven or Commando. If the Raven-2X got ECM, it would actually be used. I compared them because you said the variants that receive them were terrible, when that is not true at all. I named off worse variant, and not only that, but variants that are completely useless, and should never be used. They get ECM, then we can talk about how ECM is a crutch for bad mechs. The mechs that have it are all good.

If they bring 1, please read this, 1 LRM 20, that accounts for 8 ECMs, that means that you can't say they wasted tonnage. And ECM gives a bonus even against enemies who aren't packing LRMs and SSRMs, it allows you to take longer to be locked on, decreases the max range that they can see you, counters TAG, NARC, BAP. That is a huge list of advantages, even if it did nothing to LRMs and SSRM, people would still use it.

You can easily beat 8 Atlas with LRMs, but if you cannot even get a lock on them, because ECM counters that completely...

"BUT I WAS JUST TOLD HOW AWESOME HEAT VISION IS FOR NEGATING ECM. It can't be both the only counter and completely ******* useless. Get your talking points straight."

I don't even understand this, no one said anything like that, and I think you may be losing it, seriously. Heat vision lets you identify mechs with ECM better, and then...?

You seriously have failed to identify one reason why I would not want to bring ECM on an ECM mech. Let me make this easy for you.

I have a Raven-3L, I can put ECM on it, and I have the tonnage and slots free, why would I not want the ECM? In what way would I not want to have it?

Edited by ICEFANG13, 28 December 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[hammerreborn]

ICEFANG13, on 28 December 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Oh good I'm not worth listening to, that doesn't make any sense, like most of what you said. Missiles and non missiles? What are you crazy? Lasers and ballistics work very differently, like SRMs and SSRMs, you must not play very many different mechs.

Grouping every weapon system in the game into 5 broad categories so that you can make a sensationalist OMG 40% OF WEAPONS ARE NOW USELESS ZOMG is a stupid argument. 100% of weapons that can lock on a target are eliminated by ECM! See how stupid it sounds.

Quote

If you are dying so quick in a commando, you are a poor pilot. They are frail mechs, but running into every one and dying is not good design, plus if you see a light mech that you cannot beat, you should run away correct?

Anything can kill a commando. All it takes is one precise alpha. It's the lightest armored mech in the game for a reason. This is a netcode issue, not an ECM.

This argument has nothing to do with the balance of ECMs.

Quote

So it doesn't beat a couple types of mechs? You just said the commando will get eaten by a couple alphas, but all of a sudden, a Jenner is as strong as an Atlas, you aren't keeping things straight. Sure it doesn't have an edge in a one on one light fight, unless your opponent is packing missiles. If you have 4 energy weapons, and a ballistic, and ECM, and the Jenner only has 4 energy, see how that works?

Then the Jenner is running significantly low on weight and the cicada is running around with a machine gun or AC/2. Sure, a gimped jenner might possibly lose to a cicada.

Once again, this has nothing to do with ECM being balanced or not.

Quote

If you put the Jenner-D at the same level of ECM Raven-3L, you are a fool. The 3L was comparable before ECM, now its not even close. If you cannot make that simple connection, then I could see why you think ECM is not OP. How many Raven-3Ls do you see in 8 mans? In PUGS? Compare them to Jenner-Ds. A Jenner D will lose almost every time it fights a good ECM Raven or Commando. If the Raven-2X got ECM, it would actually be used. I compared them because you said the variants that receive them were terrible, when that is not true at all. I named off worse variant, and not only that, but variants that are completely useless, and should never be used. They get ECM, then we can talk about how ECM is a crutch for bad mechs. The mechs that have it are all good.

A Jenner should never lose to a commando unless it's a bad pilot, and an equal skilled raven vs Jenner should come out even. A jenner with 4 medium lasers and 2 srm4s will out dps a 3 med laser 2 streak raven every single time, and the ECM doesn't even come into play. Even if you switch out to a streak 2 and SRM 6 on the raven (what I drive in my 3L) the damage becomes equal and with no netcode lag the mechs are roughly equivalent, with the advantage actually going to the Jenner as it is far more maneuverable (with fixed JJs).

Once again, this has nothing to do with ECM being balanced or not.

Quote

If they bring 1, please read this, 1 LRM 20, that accounts for 8 ECMs, that means that you can't say they wasted tonnage. And ECM gives a bonus even against enemies who aren't packing LRMs and SSRMs, it allows you to take longer to be locked on, decreases the max range that they can see you, counters TAG, NARC, BAP. That is a huge list of advantages, even if it did nothing to LRMs and SSRM, people would still use it.

A team that isn't running ECM isn't bringing LRMs, or they will bring a range of spotters to utilize the LRMs. A bunch of idiots running C4 LRM 20s and nothing else isn't a reason to nerf ECM.

Quote

You can easily beat 8 Atlas with LRMs, but if you cannot even get a lock on them, because ECM counters that completely...

Except when they are TAGed of course. Which any team that is playing competively and using LRMs will bring.

Quote

I don't even understand this, no one said anything like that, and I think you may be losing it, seriously. Heat vision lets you identify mechs with ECM better, and then...?

Original poster and another poster both made this claim.

Quote

You seriously have failed to identify one reason why I would not want to bring ECM on an ECM mech. Let me make this easy for you.

I have a Raven-3L, I can put ECM on it, and I have the tonnage and slots free, why would I not want the ECM? In what way would I not want to have it?

Once again, what does 4 specific mechs having ECM as a special incentive to use those mechs have to do with ECM being balanced or not? People RAGED when Jenners were going to get ECM, as it would "negate" the Raven. The whole point of ECM being on these particular mechs is to give an incentive to use mechs that aren't guasscats (pre- guass nerf) or Jenners.

You haven't given a single response as to why ECM has "defined" MWO, or stated that its unbalanced, other than "BUT WHY WOULDN'T I BRING IT". What are the disadvantages to Modules. Pilot Skills? Are these all unbalanced and broken as well. What's the disadvantage to the sensor range increase? Why wouldn't you get speed tweek?

Edited by hammerreborn, 28 December 2012 - 12:40 AM.

[Adeptus Odren]

IV Amen, on 27 December 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Yes, you can play your pimped-out Atlas when you afford to play it. Sorry if I'm rude to casual players (such as myself, btw), but you should not get all the candy at once. The "I WANT"-argument is just lame. There are people who learn to master the mechs and make C-Bill with them and they deserve every penny. There is an assault mech option in the Trial mechs if you want to play one without having to worry about the cost. The repair bill is also a way to control drops, it's not just to annoy you.

People playing this game with the most money are those who grew up with BT and MW and most probably have full time jobs and families to care for - like me (read: 30+ to 40+ age bracket). Most likely, they do not have the time to Master or equip their preferred mechs in a reasonable amount of time with rearm and repair costs. The removal of repair and rearm is an incredible benefit to them.

As for the "I WANT" argument - it's not lame. Nearly all of our daily actions, whether it be with work or at home revolve around the concept of "I WANT." Also, I believe being a Founder gives us the right to whine and to make demands. At least a greater right to whine and make demands than the other welfare players.

Also, PGI/IGP did make a commitment in closed beta that they didn't want the economy to keep people from playing their favorite mechs. Guess what" removal of repair and rearm is the easiest way to do that.

[ICEFANG13]

Yes all of these things are important to the balance of the game. Comparison of mechs is very important. If you can hit a Raven with 2SRM-4s, then that light mech deserved to die for being stupid. It does counter 100% of lock on weapons, I don't think you understand that. In a light on light match, streaks are the name of the game, and ECM has changed it greatly to who has more ECM. If a Commando has 1 medium laser and 3 SSRMs, and a Jenner has 4 medium lasers (because its streaks are countered, and carrying LRMs on a light is a joke, and if you can hit a commando with 2 SRM-4s he deserves to die), who will win that? True that a Jenner can do more damage with 4 mediums, but only if he is a very skilled pilot. A Raven-3L makes this problem even bigger by bringing more armor and 3 mediums. Which wins, 3 mediums and 2 streaks, or 4 mediums? Yeah I thought so. Saying all these terrible builds doesn't make any sense. A Jenner-D that does not run 2 SSRM-2s and 4 lasers can be done better by another mech, this is a fact, there are no other builds that the Jenner-D can do better (go ahead and name some, before you say, SRM-8, the Raven can do SRM-6 and SRM-2, and that fires in a 7-1, better than 4-4, and it can carry ECM, and it has an extra module slot, and it can equip artemis if it wants to).

I'm saying, 1 (can you understand this?) 1 LRM 20 is equal on tonnage to 8 ECM? That is not a whole team? That is one mech with one missile hardpoint, and that happens fairly consistently on matches where the players don't know that LRMs are inferior.

TAG does not counter ECM, anyone who says otherwise has never tried to use it, it weakens it slightly in the correct circumstances, ECM is the only counter to ECM. TAG does not work under 180, and outside of that, it will let you get a lock on, if you can keep the TAG on, in about 4 seconds. That is not a counter, that is a weak energy slot used up.

You, once again, failed to answer my question I will re-post it in case you forgot or can't read it. Answer this question, and maybe you'll understand why ECM is OP.

"I have a Raven-3L, I can put ECM on it, and I have the tonnage and slots free, why would I not want the ECM? In what way would I not want to have it?"

Now to answer your module and pilot tree questions...

Pilot tree is not comparable what so ever. Let me compare it in a better manner:
If you have one slot free, and one ton free, and you have nothing to add but a heatsink on your mech? Will you add it? That is exactly what pilot trees are, you can get this thing to improve your mech, and so can every other mech, and its not negotiable in anyway. You want 2 speed tweaks? Well you can't do that. This argument implies that you think ECM mechs should all carry ECM (at this time they should, as there is no disadvantage to it). Its like the medium laser question you asked. You have one energy slot, and the opinions are humungous, you have one module slot, and you have a few opinions right now. Sure every mech that could, would run every module, but you are limited by the weapon slots, and the module slots. They have no disadvantages, but you can't use them all either. ECM has no disadvantages and takes up 2 of what, 40 slots, and 1.5 tons of (min) 25 tons? That is insane in comparison. ECM also does more than all the modules combined right now.

Why would I want capture accelerator on my mech? I'm never in the base cap.
Why would I want to have 360 view? I'm so fast I don't worry about being flanked.
Why would I want faster targeting? I only have 2 slots, and I think farther and 360 view are better.

These demonstrate an understanding of filling your slots effectively.

Why would I want ECM on my mech? The enemy team never uses SSRMs, LRMs, target me, need my target info, bring ECM, it only takes 1.5 tons and 2 slots. I'll put something else in, said no pilot ever.

[Corvus Antaka]

Never before in any mech game have we had such garbage radar, or ecm implentation. Anyone that thinks current ECM and gameplay in MWO is "good" needs their head examined. Mech2,3,and 4 had significantly better gameplay, easier to drop matches, bigger maps and way more variety in what we could do. Weapons where much better balanced, as was radar.

We cant target friendly mechs, we have no real system for targetting or radar. Now, maybe every other mech game did it "wrong" but when I consider the track record & fun of every previous mech game to MWO, all the stuff we could do for a paltry 30-60 bucks for years, and compare that to what MWO is now, and specifically to features like DFA, collisions, proper radar, destructible buildings & trees, stock mechs, open mechs, way way better radar in mech3 & 4, well, the list of MWO shortcomings gets very very long.

We have no 2D/3D HTAL. no method of viewing our enemy in 3D in our targetting HUD.

Quite frankly, going back to mech2 & mech3 & mech4, and really sitting back and taking a highly critical look at the entire situation this game & franchise is in at this point, I actually find myself thinking that mektek might make heavy gear 3 & it'll be so much better than what we are getting here. I love the nostalgia of mechwarrior, but MWO pales compared to every previous mechwarrior game in flexibility & fun factor & gameplay.

And that really sucks, because the game looks awesome, it sounds awesome, and it feels awesome. But in terms of weapon balance, how matches play out, how badly gamemodes work, norespawn only, no lobbies, there are still major voids.

And I really do not see that happening with current mechanics, straying from TT, and a real lack of a true grasp of the mechanics of a solid mechwarrior title, despite having very successful predessors to fall back on. This game is edging closer to Duke Nukem and Jagged Alliance: BIA - nostalgia will grab sales (as it did) and it might grab a hardcore WoT type following, but end of the day, for people looking for a fun and solid long term experience with balanced gameplay and mechanics...

I'm not convinced yet. ECM was a very poor choice & implement, and gameplay is done for me at this point. Other than farming for cbills, playing for "fun" really isn't there anymore. It's too easy, it's too dumbed down, I'm sick of stealth armour - 100 FPS titles would be better than this for the CoD warfare it is now giving us.

its so funny, PGI added A-H on targetting, they try to bring VOIP in, now, with ECM, you cant use radar at all...epic fail. engage 8v8 all ECM mechs. its a CoD nightmare. and the humpfest is about as not fun as it gets.

heatscale is way too high. LRMS track WAY too well, while unable to get locks unless in LOS and yet they hit way to hard when they do hit. Radar system is complete garbage, as is targetting and lack of ability to target friendlies. ssrms are fine, boating / alphas needs a little more penalties perhaps.

Maybe I just don't like this iteration of mechwarrior. But honestly, theres a lot to like here. over the last 5 months I've enjoyed matches, up until ECM. what ECM has done to LRM's & radar is craptastic, and if indeed this is the future gameplay PGI is aiming for I'll just hope that Heavy Gear 3 is / will be better.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 28 December 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[Slanski]

armyunit, on 27 December 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Why do you guys even bother complain about the matchmaking when it isn't finished yet?

Because on the 27th, early evening European time our unit (12th Donegal) couldn't get a single 8man opponent team for 15 minutes. This game lives and dies by providing opponents to play and matchmaking for a decent fight. Currently it neither incentivizes nor sets up for a good varied match.

Which means the mission critical package is failing and so will the revenue! I love the idea of MWO, but PGI needs to permit the players to play eachother in well balanced challenging matches. The current no weight limit all ECM Frankenstein 8 man drops are the absence of game design.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

thefinn, on 27 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Increase lock-on time ? What are you smoking - there IS NO LOCKON. ECM needs to be reduced to a single or dual facet module like any other. You shouldn't have half a page of modifiers for a single 2 slot item of ANY KIND.

TT isn't Internet, it doesn't translate.

ECM should just increase lockon time that's it.
If ECM made lockon time x2 or x1.5 I'd be going "ouch" as a catapult pilot, but at least I would eventually be able to get to a target. This is a very reasonable outcome for ECM - it's STILL more useful than my beagle.

As far as NARC/Artemis are concerned:
Although frankly I think NARC is already useless as hell and Artemis is 1.5m CBills + extra slots and more CBILLS for ammo etc.. I really think countering all of that with a 2 slot ECM item is absurd.

Also having TAG - currently being the only counter for a unit that is ECM'd - nullified by ECM is similarly absurd.

ECM should only be available for Assault mechs with specific fittings for it at most.

Light Intel Mechs should COUNTER ECM, not HAVE ECM.



My experience says this is already true. In fact 2 AMS do a damned good job. The issue here is that people rarely install them.

Frankly I think ECM should just plain be removed. I cannot understand why this kind of metagame is necessary at all.

Mechwarrior isn't about stealth, but is about clever tactics. Don't confuse the two.

People play and have always played MW to see titans smashing each other.
ECM currently completely detracts from this.

I'm off to play planetside 2

This please

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Adeptus Odren, on 28 December 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

People playing this game with the most money are those who grew up with BT and MW and most probably have full time jobs and families to care for - like me (read: 30+ to 40+ age bracket). Most likely, they do not have the time to Master or equip their preferred mechs in a reasonable amount of time with rearm and repair costs. The removal of repair and rearm is an incredible benefit to them.

I agree that there should be changes made and there probably will be when Faction Warfare and more mechs are introduced. And I agree that the casual player should not be forgotten. I myself have a full time job and other activity also. Yet the repair cost shouldn't be neglected. I'd like to see the income like this - You lose a match and suck; you lose C-Bill, you lose a match and dominate - a little income, you win and suck - a little income, you own - get lots of C-Bill.

The R&R compared to rewards sucked, but it still kept somekind of balance between mechs in PUGs.

Quote

As for the "I WANT" argument - it's not lame. Nearly all of our daily actions, whether it be with work or at home revolve around the concept of "I WANT." Also, I believe being a Founder gives us the right to whine and to make demands. At least a greater right to whine and make demands than the other welfare players.

You have no greater right to give feedback in a beta even if "YOU WANT" to.

Quote

Also, PGI/IGP did make a commitment in closed beta that they didn't want the economy to keep people from playing their favorite mechs. Guess what" removal of repair and rearm is the easiest way to do that.

Easiest way is seldom the best. There are lots of options to implement R&R without stomping on casual players feet. Bottom line - If you suck, you should not be rewarded for it. If you suck in an expensive upgraded assault - you should pay for it. I do not want to see complete lack of financing just to favor some rich kids who fail at math (and MechWarrior).

[HiplyRustic]

hammerreborn, on 27 December 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

STUFF

The fact that there is a counter to radar invisibility ( an absurd counter, by the way...since radar is by it's very nature something that is of value in situations where there is no line of sight ) does not make "ECM provides radar invisibility" in any way a false statement.

If you really want to pick nits, I'm your huckleberry.

ECM is currently performing the role of a cloak of invisibility, plain and simple. It's not supposed to be acting like this, also plain and simple.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 28 December 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

HiplyRustic, on 28 December 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

ECM is currently performing the role of a cloak of invisibility, plain and simple. It's not supposed to be acting like this, also plain and simple.

You are not right. The devs stated that ECM actually IS working as intended (by them), so it is suppesed to do everything it does. And this is what makes it really sad: it's not a mistake or game bug, it's intentional. I'm afraid they will leave ECM as it is, just like 1.4 heat sinks and all the BS behind them.

[Pando]

One of the "neat" suggestions I had read before on how to "balance" the ECM was;

To make the effects of ECM into Modules.

For example;

ECM Mod1; Radar Scramble
ECM Mod2: Radar Cloak
ECM Mod3; Counter ECM
ECM Mod4; Anti-Missile Lock

I thought that was a great idea. Why? Because the pilot has to make choices on WHICH effect his team would need most. If, that pilot wants to move with several of the features they sacrifice other valuable modules.

Just an opinion, not saying anything needs changed ATM IMO.

Edited by Pando, 28 December 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[MadaO]

thefinn, on 27 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'm off to play planetside 2

They said ECM would be a "Game Changer". Indeed, i could not agree more. I am currently installing Hawken, have AVA and Planetside2 on my list too. Gonna finish up X-COM and check out some of the exciting new mods for Skyrim.

[ICEFANG13]

I just got Fallout:NV. I keep thinking how I want to play MWO, but then I think of the ECM mess, and then I head shot a super mutant. Why play the broken game right now?

[Elder Thorn]

the only problem i see with ECM is, that it denies you the ability to focus fire sometimes, when you have clear visual on 3 atlases and are positioned in different ankles, so you can't say "the left one", but thats more of a minor issue. I think the big problems are for pug groups, because usually you have no time to type where you are once you got trapped in a ECM bubble and are being ***** and if you are on voice comms, you can tell your mates where the action is, but not on a pug

[HiplyRustic]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 28 December 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

You are not right. The devs stated that ECM actually IS working as intended (by them), so it is suppesed to do everything it does. And this is what makes it really sad: it's not a mistake or game bug, it's intentional. I'm afraid they will leave ECM as it is, just like 1.4 heat sinks and all the BS behind them.

I said it's not supposed to be acting like this, not that this isn't the way it was coded to act.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

I don't want to argue with you about the choice of words, but I think the guys that make this game set up the rules for it so it's their thing to say what is supposed to do what. They say they want ECM to work like this and it does. But that's just, you know, semantics. Anyway, the problem remains - it's stupid that ECM is so powerfull without any drawbacks

Edited by Krzysztof z Bagien, 28 December 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[Klaus]

Rocket2Uranus, on 27 December 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

um.

two teams with ECM.
the team with more skilled pilots will win.

but it is pretty funny when I drop in a PUG game where i'm the only Assualt. And everyone else is rolling Light Mechs.
we got steam rolled.

Matchmaking broken? Yes.
ECM OP? No. ECM is a game changer.
It's only unfair when your team has no ECM and the enemy has some.
I honestly think ECM should be balanced. The range should be determined by the size of your mech.

Just look at this clown's sig. He obviously doesn't pilot a light.

Who ever wins the battle of the lights has a better shot at winning the game. 2 Raven 3Ls and a Commando 2D all with ECM fight against a Jenner, a Raven X4 or something and a Commando 2D with... Who will win? Obviously the 3Ls and the 2D because no one will be able to use streaks against them at all. They are matching weights too but just being able to use streaks against lights make it no contes. I don't care how good of a shot you are with normal SRMs or medium lasers unless you're in a Jenner F or Cicada A2 with 6 mediums on them you don't even have a chance. And even then, you'll probably just get focused down first.

If an Atlas farther back on your team's lines has it, it won't matter. The team with more ECM will win easily against the other lights and go on to slowly rip apart every single heavier mech unless something with heavy guns gets a lucky shot. Just because they have one more light carrying ECM. I've seen this happen a million times.

Not to say it is IMPOSSIBLE to win if they other team has more ECM than yours, 'specially if they separate... But a group of 2~3 lights all with ECM and working together can change the tide of the battle much more than they should be able to. About that only thing that will win that game for you... Dun dun dun... More ECM Atlas with streaks...

Stacking ECM can win you the game very easily, not always.