1017 replies to this topic

[AlexWildeagle]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 30 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Enjoy your robot version of Warsong Gulch.

ECM changed the game for the better, and my heart breaks that you could not adapt.

Amen! So many people still using missiles and getting high scores. But still the whiny beeches go on cause their super easy mode is gone.
Until they correct the issues with LRMs and SRMs I approve of their implementation of ECM

[ICEFANG13]

So if ECM is a good thing, can you name the disadvantages to it? Everything else in the game has a disadvantage, what is ECM?

[Evinthal]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

ECM=teamwork is a fallacy. It's called survival. At the start of match, most look for mech carrying ECM and walk close to him, until they run into the bulk of the enemies. They're simply using ECM as safe passage from LRM. Is that teamwork?

Technically I could run my RVN-3L to middle of map, hide and shutdown, go afk and still provide benefits for my team. ECM still scrambles enemy's signals even when shutdown. Is that teamwork?

No, ECM doesn't make teamwork. ECM is simply carrying a superior piece of technology in which allies take advantage of. If all chassis had access to it, then most would carry it without regards to teammates.

This statement is laughable. How do you figure the problem is ECM users? There is nothing to do, the equipment is passive. One could be jamming the enemies without even knowing they're on the other side of a building. The ECCM is a bigger joke; team with more ECM doesn't worry about being jammed. Again I say if all chassis could carry ECM, most players would. It would become a necessary component like 'life support'.

The whole shebang of "One could be jamming the enemies without even knowing they're on the other side of a building." is complete bull poop. If you had any common sense to check the right side of your screen or look at your damn map and see it being scrambled, you'd know damn well know you were being jammed. ECM in jam mode is a double edged sword. It gives you away. Hell it gives you away through rock/ice walls. Be smart, if you see a team mate being jammed or notice yourself being jammed, alert the team. 9/10 times when I do it we can hunt down the little ECM ******* and shoo it off or outright kill it. Then again I have the fortune of playing with people who don't have their heads completely up their *****.

Edit: Adding in that LRMs can still be used if you have a TAG yourself, or a competent friend to TAG for you and not be a total derp. Especially now that TAG has a 750 meter range.

Edited by Evinthal, 30 December 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Played a match just now where we got one D-DC and the enemy had 4 of them (prolly a premade).


TAG'd 'em and bagged 'em.

[bryce]

Meh I'm still playing, but I wont spend another dime till they fix ECM because I know I won't be in for the long haul with the current state.

[StalaggtIKE]

I have not given Hawken a try, yet. However from the footage it looks like a brawling twitch-fest with the addition of sprinting. Hawken is not indecisive with its image, a COD with mechs. Being that ECM negates all smart fire weapons, MWO, at least in pug games, are becoming more of a brawl fest. Hopefully, once MASC is released, MWO doesn't closer mirrors Hawken. Given the current state of MWO, I can see how the two are comparable.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 December 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Evinthal, on 30 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

The whole shebang of "One could be jamming the enemies without even knowing they're on the other side of a building." is complete bull poop. If you had any common sense to check the right side of your screen or look at your damn map and see it being scrambled, you'd know damn well know you were being jammed. ECM in jam mode is a double edged sword. It gives you away. Hell it gives you away through rock/ice walls. Be smart, if you see a team mate being jammed or notice yourself being jammed, alert the team. 9/10 times when I do it we can hunt down the little ECM ******* and shoo it off or outright kill it. Then again I have the fortune of playing with people who don't have their heads completely up their *****.

Edit: Adding in that LRMs can still be used if you have a TAG yourself, or a competent friend to TAG for you and not be a total derp. Especially now that TAG has a 750 meter range.

I was talking from the ECM user's point of view. The point being that using ECM doesn't have anything to do with teamwork, let alone require any. Given the context, I figured it would have been obvious. I suggest you thoroughly read before dropping your flame bombs, it may prevent you from looking like an a**.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 December 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[ltwally]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 30 December 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Be sure to come by and let us know when they do something there that you can't adapt to and you quit that one too...

Will do.

Keep up the flamebait. It's a great way to add to the game experience. Really attracts new players, and keeps existing ones around.

[Araara]

People who diss ECM complainers for wanting to go back to "easy-mode LRM/SSRM" don't seem to realize that most of those ECM complainers really want an ECM/LRM/SSRM rebalancing.

Of course we don't like the current ECM implementation, but we (and i'll generalize the complainers here) don't like SSRM boating and LRM boating either. It's not like we want one completely removed so that we can abuse the other system, we want a rebalancing to put it in line with the other weapon types like ballistics and lasers...

[Corvus Antaka]

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Firstly, Sarna is not cannon; it's not "offiicial." There have been inaccuracies in the past, and so quoting it as a TT source is sometimes not a good idea.

That said, cannon ECM counters/disrupts/negates the following:

• Artemis
  
• Beagle
  
• Narc
  
• C3

The PGI implementation does that, and also:

• kills basic sensors, so you often have no idea who is friend and who is foe
  
• kills missile locks, making you immune to LRM & S-SRM

It's the PGI addons that really wreck things.

+1

[Vechs]

If I could do so, I would put ECM on every single mech I own, without hesitation.

It is by far the most powerful 1.5 tons in the game. It has only pros, and no cons.

I certainly don't feel that way about AMS or Beagle or TAG. I mount those three on some mechs, but not others. When I go to mount one of them, I put some thought into it.

ECM? No thought. Mount it if possible. Make the room for it, no question.

[ltwally]

Araara, on 30 December 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

People who diss ECM complainers for wanting to go back to "easy-mode LRM/SSRM" don't seem to realize that most of those ECM complainers really want an ECM/LRM/SSRM rebalancing.

Of course we don't like the current ECM implementation, but we (and i'll generalize the complainers here) don't like SSRM boating and LRM boating either. It's not like we want one completely removed so that we can abuse the other system, we want a rebalancing to put it in line with the other weapon types like ballistics and lasers...

Well said.

Though, I honestly feel LRMs weren't bad.

S-SRMs aren't bad in low numbers. It's only when you run into a StreakCat that its a problem. It might not be a cannon, but I think a good fix for S-SRM is a diminishing return on each tube above 4 - 6 tubes. For each additional tube, increase the hit locations, the miss-chance, firing delays, etc.

[Evinthal]

StalaggtIKE, on 30 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

I was talking from the ECM user's point of view. The point being that using ECM doesn't have anything to do with teamwork, let alone require any. Given the context, I figured it would have been obvious. I suggest you thoroughly read before dropping your flame bombs, it may prevent you from looking like an a**.

I know well what you were talking about. And your point is invalid as ECM has tons to do with team work. Such as knowing when to counter an enemy ECM, knowing where to be to provide best coverage for your team, knowing where to go to disrupt the enemy the most. Knowing priority targets, and when you are in over your head and to return to group or how to bait enemies simply because you have ECM and generally turn into a juicy target for a team that is itching to kill you because of your ECM.

So thank you for trying to turn it around, and thank you for failing.

Also, WOO i really care about looking like an *** on the internet OMG my life is going to be ruined if people find out. What ever shall I do? Oh, I know, I'll go start a QQ post about it.

Edited by Evinthal, 30 December 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[Vechs]

To be more constructive, let me list the things I like about ECM:

+ Counters LRM in most situations
+ Counters SSRM in most situations
+ Let's you sneak around and requires enemies to spot your actual mech, and not a red HUD element

Okay, so those things I like, and if that's all ECM did, I think it'd be pretty balanced. I'd still take it without hesitation on every mech... but... baby steps.

Now the things I really don't like about ECM:

- Disables minimap for players, causes a severe breakdown of orientation and teamwork
- Gives friendly mechs the same null signature / cloak

Okay so these two things really make ECM overpowered. It's not the missile lock countering that makes ECM too powerful.

It's how it completely disrupts... well, everything else.

I would suggest the following changes:

1) While inside an ECM bubble, you still see friendly player HUD elements, and still see their blue arrows on your minimap

2) An ECM mech has the cloak / null signature for himself, but does not give that to friendlies

3) An ECM mech has the missile lock counter for himself, and gives that aspect of ECM to nearby friendlies

4) A single ECM in counter mode can counter any amount of nearby enemy ECM. So you don't have to stack your entire team around the damn thing.

Would ECM still be amazing for 1.5 tons with these changes? Hell yes.

Would I still mindlessly put it on any mech I could? Yep.

Would it be as broken as it currently is? Nope!

[MadaO]

SixStringSamurai, on 30 December 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems....

LRM on MWO has similar effects to LRM on Battletech, but it is technically very different. This is where the confusion lies. On BTech one fires LRMs with exactly the same accuracy as any other regular weapon, and hits instantly. If MWO had a canon translation, it would mean firing a volley of missiles that arches toward the target without any locks or guidance, but hits instantly, or at the same speed as autocannon projectile, if that's sufficiently canon. Artemis IV would simply group the missile volley in a tighter bunch so more missiles hit. ECM would only interfere with this tighter grouping, nothing more.

Because of this mechanic, quoting Sarna does nothing to justify the way ECM works in MWO.

When it comes to a decent implementation of Battletech/Mechwarrior, I would say there are some things on MWO that seem pretty good, which is why I have bought MC. However, there are too many glaring problems that cannot be ignored which the developers have. ECM is a good example. They knew it was a risky addition but ignored a lot of solid feedback for weeks as they "monitored" it. They've been monitoring it for weeks and currently, it looks like they've left this unstable bomb lying in the game and gone off for a long holiday break. You know, when you start a new business venture, you don't count work hours. Holiday seasons only mean bonus time to add value to your product so it doesn't look sloppy. I'm getting the the old feeling of Star Trek Online *cough*Cryptic Studios*cough*. Only now you can't downgrade a f2p model to anything lower. It's all a matter of confidence in the developers. I remember years ago when I played GuildWars. Whenever there was a problem or balance issue, I'd say no worries, they WILL fix it soon. And they always did, to good satisfaction.

[ltwally]

Vechs, on 30 December 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

To be more constructive, let me list the things I like about ECM:

+ Counters LRM in most situations
+ Counters SSRM in most situations
+ Let's you sneak around and requires enemies to spot your actual mech, and not a red HUD element

You've taken the most broken aspect of ECM and held them up as virtues. Bravo.

Now, please explain again how it is that a 1.5 tonne piece of equipment is justified in completely countering LRM, S-SRM, and foiling even basic sensors so that folks can't even tell friend from foe?

Compare and contrast it against the other equipment (AMS, Artemis, Beagle, Narc, Tag). How does it stack up? Would you pick your mech solely for one of these pieces of equipment? Seems like I've seen a lot more Raven 3L's than I used to... hmm.

[ltwally]

MadaO, on 30 December 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

LRM on MWO has similar effects to LRM on Battletech, but it is technically very different. This is where the confusion lies. On BTech one fires LRMs with exactly the same accuracy as any other regular weapon, and hits instantly. If MWO had a canon translation, it would mean firing a volley of missiles that arches toward the target without any locks or guidance, but hits instantly, or at the same speed as autocannon projectile, if that's sufficiently canon. Artemis IV would simply group the missile volley in a tighter bunch so more missiles hit. ECM would only interfere with this tighter grouping, nothing more.

Because of this mechanic, quoting Sarna does nothing to justify the way ECM works in MWO.

Quite agree. As I have said before, TT / canon is a good starting place. It should not be the end result, however.

Autocannons are a perfect example of how things should be added to MW:O (or any similar game): Start them out in a somewhat weakened state, and then ramp them up slowly.

The sad thing here is that PGI probably didn't plan it this way.

Still, that's how new equipment should be handled. A little on the weak side at first, and then slowly ramp it up over the course of several weeks of patching and monitoring.

Quote

When it comes to a decent implementation of Battletech/Mechwarrior, I would say there are some things on MWO that seem pretty good, which is why I have bought MC. However, there are too many glaring problems that cannot be ignored which the developers have. ECM is a good example. They knew it was a risky addition but ignored a lot of solid feedback for weeks as they "monitored" it. They've been monitoring it for weeks and currently, it looks like they've left this unstable bomb lying in the game and gone off for a long holiday break. You know, when you start a new business venture, you don't count work hours. Holiday seasons only mean bonus time to add value to your product so it doesn't look sloppy. I'm getting the the old feeling of Star Trek Online *cough*Cryptic Studios*cough*. Only now you can't downgrade a f2p model to anything lower. It's all a matter of confidence in the developers. I remember years ago when I played GuildWars. Whenever there was a problem or balance issue, I'd say no worries, they WILL fix it soon. And they always did, to good satisfaction.

Again, I think we're mostly in agreement here.

The major problem here isn't ECM. It's how ECM came to be rolled out like this, and how many other items in the past have similarly been rolled out in over-powered form...

PGI just doesn't seem to grasp that it's not cool to bring out new stuff that bends the game like a pretzel. That it's better for the game ecosystem and for players' fun factors to bring things weakened and then ramp them up as necessary.

For all their talent, PGI isn't show the signs of a mature leadership. And so they may eventually fix ECM. But they'll just do it again with the next item. For me, that says, "don't spend your money here" like a big neon sign.

[Sir Iron Duke]

I must say, ECM is for the Cheater....i mean the faction equipped with it wins, the others lose; it´s that simple.
Originally, it´s a excellent solution for stopping the "LRM *** show" but now has disbalanced the game very seriously.

[StalaggtIKE]

Evinthal, on 30 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

I know well what you were talking about.

Apparently you did not, or you wouldn't have wasted your time quoting and responding to my comment, listing things most people figured out within 3 games of playing with ECM.

Quote

And your point is invalid as ECM has tons to do with team work. Such as knowing when to counter an enemy ECM, knowing where to be to provide best coverage for your team, knowing where to go to disrupt the enemy the most. Knowing priority targets, and when you are in over your head and to return to group or how to bait enemies simply because you have ECM and generally turn into a juicy target for a team that is itching to kill you because of your ECM.

Hmmm, when do you counter ECM? ALWAYS. That is if you have no ECM on your team. If you do then you just have to decide who will do the countering. No rocket science or Sun Tzu strategizing required. ECM is an advantage for the opposite team, you are best focusing on eliminating. I think that is pretty clear to everyone. The fact ECM is such a prime target is proof that it's unbalanced. A COM-2D a prime target over an Atlas? Yeah, very balanced.

Quote

Also, WOO i really care about looking like an *** on the internet OMG my life is going to be ruined if people find out. What ever shall I do? Oh, I know, I'll go start a QQ post about it.

You sound like a sad, sad little man. Some psychologist would suggest a few more hugs from Mommy could have prevented this.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 30 December 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[LynxFury]

If all it did was reduce detection range for close allies by a couple hundred meters (600m default or 800 for BAP), made locks more difficult within that range, and removed benefit of Artemis it would still be well worth having with capabilities much closer to the disadvantage of its tonnage and closer to CBT intent.