1017 replies to this topic

[ICEFANG13]

It depends on the mech, you can remove armor to increase tonnage fairly well, in fact, almost no mechs max armor. Armor does nothing unless you get hit, which means it can be wasted tonnage, ECM does nothing if they don't bring LRMs, SSRMs, target you, ECM, BAP, Artemis, TAG, NARC. But really, its like saying why shouldn't you bring your arms to a match, armor is a part of every mech, and there are builds that use less armor than near-max, even none (although janky). There are 0 builds that do not include ECM if it can carry it.

[Scarlett Avignon]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Oh, geez..., really? People drop armor all the time to make space for weapons and ammo. Is this concept new to you?

ICEFANG13 was trying to imply that if you SHOULD mount a piece of equipment to have an optimal fit, then that makes the equipment OP. I was pointing out that not mounting armor is a really silly idea, and that doesn't make armor OP at all. It simply makes it part of the game.

Oh, and you tried to ignore my point that ECM hasn't altered the advantage that teamwork gives you.

[Mudhawk]

Personal observation from the PUG Dropzone, European Division.
ECM novelty dying down in the last 50-100 matches.
Couple of matches with no ECM at all, most with only 1 or 2.
That fact can probably be atributed to LOTS of direct fire weapons being present, mostly Cataphracts and Stalkers.
Also periodically heavy LRM rain with or without TAG.
Thanks to RnR for free people seem happy to give ammo freely.
There are still games were teams of seemingly premade ECM Lights ******** whatever they can lock their Streaks on, but I guess as a PuGger thats something you got to learn living with.
Tried the infamous Raven 3L and Atlas D-DC. By the way, thanks for the 8 Mill PGI, wouldn't have wasted that kind of money if I had to earn it the hard way...^^
Probability of ending as a smoldering heap of junk went down a notch but I still get killed by well aimed shots.
Looks like ACs work a lot better nowadays. PPCs too. Looks like ECM won't save you from making poor tactical choices either.

All in all I guess ECM needs some finetuning or a better counter than just the TAG, even with the additional range.
But I've been in enough matches lately where the players won the game, not the equipment. I tend to stick to the games after my own obliteration for educational reasons and to cool down a bit.
I find it keeps me from running into the same wall again and again. Something that otherwise would regularly sends me into a rage.
It also inspires me to use alternate tactics.
And last but not least thats how I see myteam recover from a 3:6 dilemma and still win. Thanks to my valiant sacrifice obviously.
People who die/quit, die/quit, die/quit will never share those special moments.
Except in the odd case where they didn't die for once and are the last mech standing.
But lets not complicate this post any further, shall we? ;-P

[DocBach]

ECM was suppose to be a very specialized piece of equipment, for very specialized occasions. Now it's considered mission essential, and if you have space you SHOULD mount it. That's one of the problems - there's no downside, there's no reason not to take the 'Mechs that mount it, because if you don't, you are disadvantaged.

What if I'm sick of playing in a D-DC or a Raven, but want to still be relevant? What does this game have to offer me?

[Scarlett Avignon]

Mudhawk, on 01 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

All in all I guess ECM needs some finetuning or a better counter than just the TAG

I agree. I think that ECM works right now, but it can be tweaked to work a little better.

[Gremlich Johns]

Since there is sooooo much heartburn related to the implementation of ECM by PGI, why don't the haters ( I am one) just boycott the game for a full 7-day week. With the new year started and PGI back to work, let them know how you really feel. I know I can find something else to do for a full week and it does not involve playing another video game.

If there is that significant a player base that dislikes ECM atm, then those numbers not playing should send them a message. Heck, they haven't even tried to address ECM from the "ask the developers" 29 or 29A threads. That says one of two things: they do not care what the community thinks, or they are trying to figure out how to educate themselves regarding what ECM really is supposed to do (nobody's radar or comms work normally, regardless of who is inside or outside the golden shroud) and implement some sanity (instead of making it golden armour/projectiles like it is now)

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 01 January 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

I'm saying there is no reason to not bring ECM, there is literally more reason to not bring armor than to not bring ECM.

How is this (for lack of a better word), corruption (extreme adjustments) not noticed by pro-ECM people. I've dropped with PUGs with 16 ECM twice, and that should not happen. Even when Artemis was released, 16 LRM boats was only a possibility, if ECM and everything was balanced, you'd expect it to be on about 4 or 51 mechs (about 1.5 per game on average), and you usually see at least 2 per team. The Raven-3L completely dominates the light game, and it was the first mech that I've seen over and over, even streakcats usually had some variance to it. And streakcats actually had heavy disadvantages.

3 Med lasers, 2SSRM-2, ECM

I've played that mech so many times, its ridiculous.

[Scarlett Avignon]

DocBach, on 01 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

ECM was suppose to be a very specialized piece of equipment, for very specialized occasions. Now it's considered mission essential, and if you have space you SHOULD mount it.

That's a problem that stems from the play-style of the game. There is no equipment scarcity (as there is in the BT lore) so of course everyone and their mother will mount one if they can. There's literally no downside. That doesn't make the equipment OP, it just means there's a lot of it.

[StalaggtIKE]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

ICEFANG13 was trying to imply that if you SHOULD mount a piece of equipment to have an optimal fit, then that makes the equipment OP. I was pointing out that not mounting armor is a really silly idea, and that doesn't make armor OP at all. It simply makes it part of the game.

If that's how you interpreted his statement, you completely missed the boat.

Quote

Oh, and you tried to ignore my point that ECM hasn't altered the advantage that teamwork gives you.

Actually I missed it. I addressed it above. Though on second thought should have just ignored it. As it has nothing to do with my previous statement.

[Scarlett Avignon]

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

I've dropped with PUGs

Again, there's your problem.

[Gremlich Johns]

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

3 Med lasers, 2SSRM-2, ECM

I've played that mech so many times, its ridiculous.

If you are carrying ECM, you should not be able to get a lock on with your SSRMs, as with your opponents, . ECM on - nobody talks.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 01 January 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

That's a problem that stems from the play-style of the game. There is no equipment scarcity (as there is in the BT lore) so of course everyone and their mother will mount one if they can. There's literally no downside. That doesn't make the equipment OP, it just means there's a lot of it.

In BT lore, ECM's only purpose was to nullify other electronic equipment that provided an advantage to enemy team. Such as: BAP, Artemis, C3 and TAG. It basically just reset everything to standard playing rules. It was more of a defensive tool. Oh, and this was only within its 180m bubble. There was no situation where you had to get within 200m just to spot or see them. ECM was mostly a boring tool with only usage in a set scenario. Beyond that it was a bit of a waste, its small tonnage making it not too detrimental.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 01 January 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

If that's how you interpreted his statement, you completely missed the boat.

I'm not sure how else to interpret his statement.

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Actually I missed it. I addressed it above. Though on second thought should have just ignored it. As it has nothing to do with my previous statement.

Actually, it has everything to do with it. You're missing the forest for the trees by blaming ECM for a poor play experience. People who play only as PUGs think they are entitled to the same play experience that people who put the time and effort into teamwork are. This is compounded by the fact that the game was always intended to be a teamwork based game, with almost every mechanic designed to give teamwork the advantage.

You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. But that's the way it is.

[Gremlich Johns]

ECM = electronic countermeasures
TAG = laser target designator = light
ECM does not = light therefore ECM has no effect on TAG laser

If it did, we would not be able to fire a laser at an ECM mech and damage it.

What this does equal is that the developers need to read more before they implement something.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 01 January 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

In BT lore, ECM's only purpose was to nullify other electronic equipment that provided an advantage to enemy team. Such as: BAP, Artemis, C3 and TAG. It basically just reset everything to standard playing rules. It was more of a defensive tool. Oh, and this was only within its 180m bubble. There was no situation where you had to get within 200m just to spot or see them.

I see people very well while inside the ECM bubble. No, I can't lock missiles while in it, but then, that's offset by the fact that when I do get a lock with missiles, all I have to do is sweep the crosshair over the target every couple seconds to maintain a lock and keep pumping missiles into a target.

Long story short, they have changed some concepts of the BT game. Don't get hung up too much on how things work in TT.

[Big Bad Wulf]

DocBach, on 01 January 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Why do people keep saying learn to adapt? I bought the D-DC, I can play in an ECM environment. The fact of the matter is, I don't find being forced to play the same exact way each time fun. It's not "tactics," its not "teamwork" -- It's everyone pile on as much ECM as possible so we can hopefully out counter them and use our streaks against their lights.

Before our group would change out variants freely and still have a chance at winning this game. Now they're goaded into a play style many people don't enjoy.Can they do it? Yes, of course. Do they like it? Do they continue playing this game? Nope. A good portion of our 150 members haven't played this game and have moved elsewhere because of these mechanics.

If what you stated is true then we would be seeing only ECM mechs on the field, but based on my own personal experience you get 1 to 3 ECM mechs and they usually for PUG drops go their own way and for Pre-mades employed by the manner the team commander deems it necessary.

The current flavor are Stalkers with Cataphracts with an occational dash of Hunchies, Dragons, Centurions, Jenners, ravens Cicada's and Atlases.

The only complaint we had at the start was with our LRM and SSRM guy/s but they have since then adopted and now continue to rain death despite has having ECM in the oposition.

So far we have not lost due to the other team having ECM, we lost (when we rarely do) due to:

a. Bad calls
b. Failure to react properly to the unfolding situation
c. Drop members not listening to commands

Our experience is quite the opposite with the introduction of ECM we had to work harder on our teamwork and battlefield awareness.

I have thus far only heard complaints on ECM being an end all / be all equipment but none has actually posted an ecounter which shows this and not the above reasons for loosing.

And drops have not shown that either.

But if you really feel so bad about it, I and many more others wish you happiness in whatever game you and your group decide to play.

HAPPY 3050/2013

[Scarlett Avignon]

Marcus Wulf, on 01 January 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

If what you stated is true then we would be seeing only ECM mechs on the field

Pretty much. I don't feel at a disadvantage when I play a non ECM-equipped mech. Perhaps if there were often battles where one side had no ECM and the other had lots, it would matter, but I don't see that happen often (if at all) either.

[StalaggtIKE]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I'm not sure how else to interpret his statement.



Actually, it has everything to do with it. You're missing the forest for the trees by blaming ECM for a poor play experience. People who play only as PUGs think they are entitled to the same play experience that people who put the time and effort into teamwork are. This is compounded by the fact that the game was always intended to be a teamwork based game, with almost every mechanic designed to give teamwork the advantage.

You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. But that's the way it is.

No. I don't feel ECM created a poor play experience, just a shallow one. ECM dictates the game. If two opposing teams with equal skill and teamwork battled. The team with most ECM clearly has the advantage. You may want to reread the definition of entitled, you sound pretty entitled your self. Believe it or not, pugs are what will keep this game profitable for PGI.

[StalaggtIKE]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I see people very well while inside the ECM bubble. No, I can't lock missiles while in it, but then, that's offset by the fact that when I do get a lock with missiles, all I have to do is sweep the crosshair over the target every couple seconds to maintain a lock and keep pumping missiles into a target.

Long story short, they have changed some concepts of the BT game. Don't get hung up too much on how things work in TT.

This statement proves you do not know what you talking about in regards to ECM. You are just clueless about what all it does in this game. It goes well beyond simply removing missile locks. Perhaps you really do not use ECM mechs, thus you are unaware of its full advantages. Until you brush up on its abilities I have no reason to continue back and forth with you. In your case ignorance is bliss.

[ICEFANG13]

Franklen Avignon, on 01 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Again, there's your problem.

Are you so thick as to shut down exactly what I said, the idea that a game with 16 people, all of which are PUGs (at least when I asked both teams), having ECM, nothing is wrong with that?

So I dropped in an 8 man, and all 16 had ECM, happy now? That is even more consistent, read it again.