128 replies to this topic

[w0rm]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

And I clearly know what I'm speaking about, as 80kph is more than enough, when linked with Jump jets
to escape if needed, especially when fighting against "non-jumped" equiped Commando and Cicada.

Lol. You clearly never played a Streakcat or didn't read the latest patchnotes.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I know enough to have piloted those mech to know that you can escape them with the Jump jets.And 80kph is more than needed to keep away from an Atlas and stay out it's ECM range, but fully in your Streak range.

So you are saying SSRM's need a nerf because the Atlas is magically unable to kill you when you are outside his ECM range?

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

So all in all, the Streak catapult has enough firepower to kill the atlast, without getting in the range of the ECM, and enough mobility to escape some ECM commando or Raven.

Again. A Streakpult can't run away from any ECM mech which isn't piloted by a total ******.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

The Streak Stalker don't need that much speed, as he pack a full armor + full speed + a good amount of laser weapons to complete the Streak boat weapons, and more than enough Heat sink (mostly double heat sink) to make sure he can defend even if he is stuck in some ECM range.

I suggest not standing in front of one then but circling it.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

So much for your "theory" w0rm. I know the table top game, I started playing it when it started,I have over 23 years of Mechwarrior Tabletop playing.

Again it's not tabletop. If it where we would have real DHS and ECM.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I played to all the Mechwarrior game before,and one of the constant you was having was that you never had "overpowered" weapons.

Seems you never played them online.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

And on the table top the Streak SRM missiles are intercepted by the Anti missiles systems.

Which is exactly the same way AMS works in MWO. It is just broken below 80m. Again not the SSRM's fault.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

as sadly enough players are not mature enough or "fair" enough.

The difference is: Most people dont run crying to their mummy when they get their ***** handed to themselfs by the hostile team and cry NEEEEEEEERF. They analyze and adapt their tactics/builds.

[Sarevos]

Flapdrol, on 22 December 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

No advantage is as big as the ecm advantage + streaks.

5 artemis srm6s disagree

[Elkarlo]

As i have to say the "Nerf" of the Streakcats the ECM, has made the SixsixCats much more Deadly,
as they come out of the ECM umbrella and are at 120 Meter range and can putt 36 SRM into one Zone.
I got more time now killed by Six six Cats then in the 300 Games before ECM by Streak Cats.

It is VERY simple: When a A1 is spotted be CAREFULL keep it at range and fight it with M-lasers you have a effectiv Combat range of 400 Meters the A1 has to get into 250 Meters range.

When ECM was not invented it was pretty easy to kill StreakCats because you could LRM them down...

Oh yeah you all wanted ECM and now they are even MORE deadly because they could sneak in
with a Raven and kill you...and it is harder to longrange kill them.
You have even MORE to watch the field then looking only for cover against the LRM boats...
now everytime you walk over the plain a Streakcat or SixsixCat sneaks out and kill you...


Adept or die. and there are a lot of people which already had adept as the SixsixCat and Streakcat are far away from beeing dominant on the battlefield as it was before.

Now the Streak Commando's are the Problem... But i tell you a secret: a well played 3xSRM4 commando is even more deadly. Or a 2x SRM4 2x M-laser Commando as he can better to strafing attacks.

Edited by Elkarlo, 22 December 2012 - 05:21 AM.

[Stavinsky Elyas]

soapyfrog, on 21 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Stavinsky is pretty much correct, SSRM2 are long overdue for a nerf, and the devs are committed to nerfing them both in increasing the number of possible lock points to include the limbs which will immediately make them much less scary to all but light mechs, and some unspecified nerf in the future, perhaps a stacking penalty of some kind.

ECM is not really a nerf to streaks in a properly cooperative environment. It's not relevant to the conversation. Maybe ECM needs nerfs too, and I think we will likely see some nerfs or added ECM counters. Seperate discussion.

I don't think anyone who plays this game seriously would agree that streaks should stay as they are today. The threat of SSRM4 and 6 on the distant horizon should be enough to convince anyone that changes need to be made.

And yes I have soloed heavies and assaults in streak armed light mechs as well. Sure you could say I could have done that with any loadout potentially... maybe but I would have had to a) aim and do some heat management. Right now its just facerolllllllll.... a monkey could do it.

Flapdrol, on 22 December 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

No advantage is as big as the ecm advantage + streaks.

You point at what I'm trying to go but seems some people are really having some
tunnel vision when it come to "balancing" a game, but those people are often
those who go abusing some game mecanics and don't stay in the
Franchise spirit. Too bad.

And the combo of a Commando that has 3 SSRM2 + the ECM is effectively
a very nasty ****** that don't have to make 'choice' either. Having the easy
way to have enough ammo for a siege, while retaining max speed, max armor
and the possibility to add a TAG and mix the ECM in the fitting.

siLve00, on 21 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

bwhahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahhahaahhaahahahahahaha

okay dude.. it must be the ssrm !!!!!!!!!

Yes it is definitively helpfull when you can dish up to 400+ damage (2 tons of SSRM ammo
= 200 missiles with 2+ damage per shoot) without having to concentrate on aim and
having to take care of the "lag shield", and without having any need to 'aim' while piloting your
mech around your target or concentrating in staying in their aft arc. Having an 'auto aim' give
you 95% time to pilot while keeping a 5% to have the 'target lock' refreshed. Where you would
have to divert up to 30-40% of your time aiming with SRM or others weapons (especialy torso
mounted ones) and having only 60 to 70% of your time devoted to piloting. Giving you a much
larger room for "piloting mistakes" that can happen when you roam the area at 140+ kph.

Edited by Stavinsky Elyas, 22 December 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[rdelta78]

SSRM boats can be beaten but not alone and the guys who try to kill *It* need very good coordination and teamwork.

My main concern is that SSRM's are too powerful in Light Vs. Light combat. SSRM's totally dictate the course of the battle, not lasers, not srms, not player skill and map awareness. A light without Streaks is almost always a losing light, when engaging another with Streaks.

I did some experiments and it shows that no matter what SSRM'***** you in very odd angles (almost 90 from the tubes) and they provide constant damage, which a non Streak light cant manage to deal. So what is the incentive to play none Streak light?

Mechs that have no or 1 missile hardpoint cant compete at all.

[Flapdrol]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

5 artemis srm6s disagree

2.5 times heavier, 3 times the space, not counting the ammo weight, which is also effectively more for streaks because they dont miss. ~150m effective range, even with artemis there's spread.

streaks work great agianst everything, provided you're not out-ecm'd.

I've run my raven 3L extensively and it's just stupid how easy it is to take down a jenner, just because you can use streaks and he has to do everything with the much hotter lasers that miss often due to the high pings / netcode.

Edited by Flapdrol, 22 December 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[w0rm]

Flapdrol, on 22 December 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

2.5 times heavier, 3 times the space, not counting the ammo weight, which is also effectively more for streaks because they dont miss. ~150m effective range, even with artemis there's spread.

Well worth two-shotting pretty much anything.

[Codejack]

soapyfrog, on 21 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Stavinsky is pretty much correct, SSRM2 are long overdue for a nerf, and the devs are committed to nerfing them both in increasing the number of possible lock points to include the limbs which will immediately make them much less scary to all but light mechs, and some unspecified nerf in the future, perhaps a stacking penalty of some kind.

In other words, you want them removed from the game entirely. Got it.

soapyfrog, on 21 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

ECM is not really a nerf to streaks in a properly cooperative environment. It's not relevant to the conversation. Maybe ECM needs nerfs too, and I think we will likely see some nerfs or added ECM counters. Seperate discussion.

WHAT?! How is ECM not a counter to streaks?! SSRMs won't fire without a lock, ECM prevents that above 200m and below 180m. Unless you're fighting an Atlas, you can't keep them in that window.

soapyfrog, on 21 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I don't think anyone who plays this game seriously would agree that streaks should stay as they are today.

Me.

soapyfrog, on 21 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

The threat of SSRM4 and 6 on the distant horizon should be enough to convince anyone that changes need to be made.

And I will have exactly the same problem fighting them that I have had fighting streakcats today and in the past: None whatsoever.

soapyfrog, on 21 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

And yes I have soloed heavies and assaults in streak armed light mechs as well. Sure you could say I could have done that with any loadout potentially... maybe but I would have had to a) aim and do some heat management. Right now its just facerolllllllll.... a monkey could do it.

Dude, the problem there is the light mech being all but unhittable by the heavies and assaults!

For the nth time, ANY MECH THAT COULDN'T EITHER OUTRUN OR OUTGUN A STREAKCAT WAS JUST BADLY BUILT.

Streakcats sacrifice DPS, range, and direct-fire ability all just so they can kill fast mechs. That's all they are good for. A decent Centurion or Hunchback can go toe-to-toe with one and come out on top, and any heavy or assault mech should annihilate it. Lights and Cicadas are in trouble if they get close, but they are fast enough to stay away.

Put it this way:

6xSSRM2 = 30 damage every 3.5 seconds for 12 heat
6xSRM6 = 90 damage every 4 seconds for 24 heat
4xLRM10 = 72 damage every 3.75 seconds for 16 heat

The only advantages streaks have here are short-range tracking and weight, and if you want to increase the weight, that's fine with me.

As for SSRM4s and 6s, you guys REALLY don't get it: Nobody will boat those. There is no point. Even if the game is fixed so streaks can be used by non-ECM mechs, I wouldn't pack more than 2 or 3 (all you need to fend off lights), which, incidentally, is how many the Atlas-D-DC can loadout.

Now, if you want a complaint, how about Artemis increasing SRM weight more than adding Streak capability does, and obviously doing less?

[Sarevos]

Flapdrol, on 22 December 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

just because you can use streaks and he has to do everything with the much hotter lasers that miss often due to the high pings / netcode.

making netcode and collision the issue and not streaks streaks may not miss but you cant fire them without lock or while youre on the ground, the moment you both get back up he can fire and you have to reset your lock

those srms only have to shotgun once at 200m with a good eye and you leg or destroy the offending light

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

5 artemis srm6s disagree

Yeah, but you can't mount 5 SRM 6s on a light mech. The Raven 3L is about the only light that can mount more than 1 SRM 6. But one or two SRM 6s are totally outclassed in a light mech circle duel of death by one or two SSRM-2s, despite the fact the streaks take up half the weight and crit slots. Why? Because unlike regular SRMs, the streaks hit your torso every single time and require no aiming! They never miss which leads to much higher dps over time.

The streak raven 3L with ecm is stupidly powerful with streaks - it consistently beats any other light mech configuration in the game. And also cicadas. And that's just asinine. It limits player choice and creativity to basically one competitive build based on a single OP weapon system.

There's a reason the premade teams run nothing but 3L ravens with ecm, 2 streaks and 3 medium lasers. Because it's overpowered relative to all other lights. Mainly thanks to the broken nature of streak missiles and the 3L's ability to block return streak fire from most other mechs.

The streak cat (Catapult A1) has been replaced by the streak chicken (Raven 3L) as the top choice for no aim easy mode overpowered play. Now with free rearm too!

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 22 December 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Flapdrol]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

making netcode and collision the issue and not streaks streaks may not miss but you cant fire them without lock or while youre on the ground, the moment you both get back up he can fire and you have to reset your lock

those srms only have to shotgun once at 200m with a good eye and you leg or destroy the offending light

but fixing the netcode will take a lot of time, nerfing streaks is just changing a few numbers. when the netcode is fixed you can simply change them back.

Edited by Flapdrol, 22 December 2012 - 06:02 AM.

[GioAvanti]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

As stated by the devs the ECM was NOT the nerf. It's one of the equipement we have on the Table top game, and it was supposed to be added since long.

But as so many people are abusing the fact that SSRM are so "overpowered" in the games right now, the dev clearly stated that they are looking for a way to prevent the abuse, but still keep a 1-2 Streak SRM combo usefull for light mechs, and as "support" weapons as they are supposed to be even for some heavier mechs.

A mech is supposed to be a clean balance between Fire power, Speed, Armor and Heat control.

If you get a LRM boat you even get some short range weakness, preventing the use of them under 200m.
And the AMS are taking away a good numbers of missiles, especially if you are moving with others players
having some AMS on their mecha. So the LRM are balanced right now.

But to be honnest, what is the "trouble" for a SSRM boat ?

You can have your full load of weapons (1.5 tons each, that's 4.5 to 9 tons for the weapons.)
Each tons of missiles has 100 missiles. So even if you have 6 launcher. It mean each ton of ammo
mean 8 salvo and some.
Your missiles are not intercepted by the AMS (something that happen in the Tabletop rules).

So what are the weakness of a Streak boat :
Your weapons don't weight much, so you can have them all without troubles. -> no weakness
The needed ammo to hold a whole game mean some 30-40 salvo. That mean 4-5 tons of ammo for a 6x SSRM2 boat.
So you have 9 tons of weapons + 5 tons of ammo, it means 14 tons. On a 65+ tons mecha.
That mean you can have the full Armor capacity, the biggest engine in it to have the top speed.
And having the biggest engine coupled with Double heat sink mean you never heat up. -> no weakness

An ECM user can prevent you from locking him or any other target -> You have speed to over run
the heavier ECM mech, and enough speed to pull the light to your team to have him killed
so "no real weakness". Especially if you play with a 2 man+ team with your own light ECM
user mech. As he will negate the other ECM user, and you kill him in 1-2 shoots. -> so again no
real weakness.

Add the fact that you are not restrained to the "longest range" acquisition, that should be 270m, and loosing
lock if the target move out of the 270m range. So you have a fast mech, with full Armor that can engage
ECM using mech at 180-200m, by just staying out of the ECM range, but still fully in the SSRM range.

By having an ECM streak boat moving with you you have just what needed to prevent even ECM using
mecha from having any protection.

How could anyone try to pretend it's balanced, when in the Table top you can't hope to have such a way to
use them.

Actually streak boats are a plague to the game.



@ JebusGeist
Perhaps you are lucky, because the more I play those day, and being in PUG the
more I see Streak Cata running with Streak Stalker, and having some Streak Commando
opening the way. And you have ways to prevent the ammo to be really dangerous.
Putting them in your legs prevent most of the troubles, as the damage don't transfer up,
and the same is true about your arms. And you don't need that much slots for ammoes.

@all
It's supposed to be a team play game, but if you don't come with a group of 2-4 guys
with each having his role, and having one taking an ECM with you, then you are
completely in the hands of the Match Maker. And having team of 4 peoples coming
with full streaks (and little lasers here and there) boats, you end up with battles
that have a 8-0 result again and again.

Uh if you're using 5 streaks on a stalker (no good pilot does this) you're doing it wrong.

[w0rm]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 22 December 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Why? Because unlike regular SRMs, the streaks hit your torso every single time and require no aiming! They never miss which leads to much higher dps over time.

Not that urban myth again.... The damage is spread over RT, CT and LT if the target doesn't move or twist its torso. If it moves they even hit legs and arms depending on how the target moves or twists it's torso.

Edited by w0rm, 22 December 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

w0rm, on 22 December 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Not that urban myth again.... The damage is spread over RT, CT and LT if the target doesn't move or twist its torso. If it moves they even hit legs and arms depending on how the target moves or twists it's torso.

That's even more deadly because light mechs usually have XL engines and their side armor is even weaker. Not sure how the streak is going to magically fly down and hit a leg unless you happen to be going up one of the few hills in the game. They always fly level. As for arms, that happens very rarely because lights have small arms with small hitboxes. It's not a myth, it's the observation of someone who has played hundreds and hundreds of matches against streak mechs (and a few times, using streaks myself). They're the most powerful short range weapon for the weight and heat in the entire game.

Can you imagine a competitive FPS game that has a pistol with lockon 100% hit never miss bullets? And this pistol never needs to stop and be reloaded (i.e. never need to stop firing due to heat) and allows you to run faster than everyone else (i.e. can mount a bigger engine due to low weapon weight). That pistol is the equivalent to what streaks are in this game.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 22 December 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[Sarevos]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 22 December 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Yeah, but you can't mount 5 SRM 6s on a light mech. The Raven 3L is about the only light that can mount more than 1 SRM 6. But one or two SRM 6s are totally outclassed in a light mech circle duel of death by one or two SSRM-2s, despite the fact the streaks take up half the weight and crit slots. Why? Because unlike regular SRMs, the streaks hit your torso every single time and require no aiming! They never miss which leads to much higher dps over time.

The streak raven 3L with ecm is stupidly powerful with streaks - it consistently beats any other light mech configuration in the game. And also cicadas. And that's just asinine. It limits player choice and creativity to basically one competitive build based on a single OP weapon system.

There's a reason the premade teams run nothing but 3L ravens with ecm, 2 streaks and 3 medium lasers. Because it's overpowered relative to all other lights. Mainly thanks to the broken nature of streak missiles and the 3L's ability to block return streak fire from most other mechs.

The streak cat (Catapult A1) has been replaced by the streak chicken (Raven 3L) as the top choice for no aim easy mode overpowered play. Now with free rearm too!

.

you should not be alone ever anyway...

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 06:33 AM.

[w0rm]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 22 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

It's not a myth, it's the observation of someone who has played hundreds and hundreds of matches against streak mechs (and a few times, using streaks myself). .

It is a myth, tested and busted in coordinated drops.

5th Fedcom Rat, on 22 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Can you imagine a competitive FPS game that has a pistol with lockon 100% hit never miss bullets? And this pistol never needs to stop and be reloaded (i.e. never need to stop firing due to heat) and allows you to run faster than everyone else (i.e. can mount a bigger engine due to low weapon weight). That pistol is the equivalent to what streaks are in this game.

You should also add that it has a pitiful damage output and two hard counters.

Edited by w0rm, 22 December 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Cerlin]

I dont find streak mechs so overpowered. Especially in a heavy or assault, as others said the are a joke. Even my mediums, if I run into another medium who used his space for streaks and I have srm6's I will win. ECM does neuter them a bit but the biggest problem with streaks was the screen shake and the fact they hit CT 99% of the time. The devs have already said they plan to address both. When streaks hit legs/arms/side torso much more often I think they will be much better for the game but still powerful (30 damage to the leg will still kill a light...and some assaults who forgot armor.)

[Stavinsky Elyas]

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

6xSSRM2 = 30 damage every 3.5 seconds for 12 heat
6xSRM6 = 90 damage every 4 seconds for 24 heat
4xLRM10 = 72 damage every 3.75 seconds for 16 heat

Ok, as you obviously don't take into account a couple of things

6x SSRM2 that shoot at 270m = 12 missiles that HIT except if the target can luckily hide fast enough that mean 30 automatic damage Making a dps of 8.57.

When you pick the 6xSRM6 you have to be really close (under 180m)
and you can't hope to have the whole volley hit at that range, to hit with full volley
you have to get even closer and use some Artemis to make sure to deliver a good punch.

So for your supposedly 90 damage, you can hope for 60-70 damage if you are close enough
and by the time you reach the close 'range' needed, you have already been hit 3-4 times
and hope that your target is not in a 'lag shield'. It make a lot of "if ... then..."


And we don't even speak about the LRM 10 that are not in the situation, as they
have a huge weakness with the 180-200 m minimal range to have their warhead
activated. That could change if the dev would add the "hot loaded" options to
a LRM rack.

w0rm, on 22 December 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

It is a myth, tested and busted in coordinated drops.



You should also add that it has a pitiful damage output and two hard counters.

Then tell me why those streak cat and other streak users end up often in the top of the damage
dealer of a game, and often with the highest number of kills (or assist) in the same games ?

Edited by Stavinsky Elyas, 22 December 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[w0rm]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 22 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Then tell me why those streak cat and other streak users end up often in the top of the damage
dealer of a game, and often with the highest number of kills (or assist) in the same games ?

Because the damage is spreadout all over the place. If they would exclusivly hit the CT it would result in low overal damage. They get the kills because the are lucky enough to score the last hit.

[Omni Tek]

ICEFANG13, on 21 December 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

SSRMs could use a nerf (pre-ECM), I'd love it myself, however, they are far from skill-less weapons and they are only amazing on lights.

SSRMs weigh 1.5 tons and take up 1 slot, they generate low heat, and have lower DPS and fair single shot damage. They cannot be fired without a lock-on, and have a max range of 270. While using Streaks, you have to face your enemy (or they will easily out DPS you while you lock on and off), making torso twisting impossible.

See that? SSRMs require skills, and I just defended them, now look at ECM.

ECM weighs 1.5 tons, and take up 2 slots, they generate no heat and require no modifications to your play style what so ever, they limit the ability to lock-on, increase the time it takes to get detailed info, make LRMs and SSRMs not lock on while in range (and take longer otherwise), units in the bubble cannot see other teammates, and their radar is rendered pretty useless. Units in the bubble cannot sent info back to teammates (help me LRM this dude!). The only effective counter is itself. TAG can be used to eliminate some of the advantages of ECM (while between 750-180) if you use a energy hardpoint, and keep it on target.

Now which one looks skill-less and which one looks OP?

both, also fun fact if you hold the left control button (freelook) you can independantly aim the arm weapons. You can do some interesting things with streaks and that little trick