195 replies to this topic

[Sarevos]

DocBach, on 22 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers.

Targeting computer as defined is not our auto detect system and thats why it jams locks and tag allows you to fire on an enemy ecm

Auto detect are our SENSORS so they are jammed

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[DocBach]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

oh and he only posted ecm suite and not the guardians separate tech readout

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Targeting computer as defined is not our auto detect system and thats why it jams locks and tag allows you to fire on an enemy ecm

Auto detect are our SENSORS so they are jammed

First, Guardian ECM and ECM are the exact same thing, only one is the Clan version, but they share the exact same rules. Secondly, our sensors are scanning and targeting devices.

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Tactical operations has the same subtext as the one i underlined but i cannot link a book i can only link the compilation site...

also how did you miss that in your own written statement?

ECM blocks the NARC, C3, Beagle and Artemis on attacks crossing through the bubble, but the rules state that targeting is not effected. Show me in either of the Total Warfare ruleset or the Tactical Operations ruleset where it says LRMs and Streak missiles cannot target enemies with ECM. Show me where it says that 'Mechs using Guardian ECM are completely undetectable by scanning sensors and targeting computers, because I'm pretty sure it states the complete opposite.

Edited by DocBach, 22 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Sarevos]

DocBach, on 22 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

First, Guardian ECM and ECM are the exact same thing, only one is the Clan version, but they share the exact same rules. Secondly, our sensors are scanning and targeting devices.




ECM blocks the NARC, C3, Beagle and Artemis on attacks crossing through the bubble, but the rules state that targeting is not effected. Show me in either of the Total Warfare ruleset or the Tactical Operations ruleset where it says LRMs and Streak missiles cannot target enemies with ECM. Show me where it says that 'Mechs using Guardian ECM are completely undetectable by scanning sensors and targeting computers, because I'm pretty sure it states the complete opposite.

Even the 3050 manual states it interferes with sensors our computer is not a "targeting computer" by definition of tt rules which you are arguing and in TT lrms are not guided without artemis. Regardless technically we should ALL be capable of running passive sensors anyway but it as such only exists in the form of the ecm (that only some chassis can carry). With passive you would need BAP to detect them or obtain a lock on them with lock based weapons but ecm is impenetrable to BAP. So instead every mech gets free stealthing ability along with ecm still able to block bap and artemis of anyone who shoots through the area of effect Lrms can no longer lock without artemis and you still lose c3 systems... but hey atleast then you can dumbfire those streaks -___-

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Don't **** with the system, and take TAG if ECM bothers you so much.

[Ashnod]

So what your saying is that the net code and lag is game ruining, and that ECM would be fine if it was working? K.

[Ashnod]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

the 3050 manual states it interferes with sensors our computer is not a "targeting computer" by definition of tt rules which you are arguing and in TT lrms are not guided without artemis. Regardless technically we should ALL be capable of running passive sensors anyway but it as such only exists in the form of the ecm (that only some chassis can carry). With passive you would need BAP to detect them or obtain a lock on them with lock based weapons but ecm is impenetrable to BAP. So instead every mech gets free stealthing ability along with ecm still able to block bap and artemis of anyone who shoots through the area of effect Lrms can no longer lock without artemis and you still lose c3 systems... but hey atleast then you can dumbfire those streaks -___-

First, LRM's are always guided, SRM's are semi guided, Artemis is a advanced communication system between the mech and the missile and helps guide it, streaks and LRM's are supposed to be able to lock through GUARDIAN(the one we have) ECM no matter the range, now though ANGEL ECM disrupts the streak targeting system but the missiles are still able to be dumb fired

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Even the 3050 manual states it interferes with sensors our computer is not a "targeting computer" by definition of tt rules which you are arguing and in TT lrms are not guided without artemis. Regardless technically we should ALL be capable of running passive sensors anyway but it as such only exists in the form of the ecm (that only some chassis can carry). With passive you would need BAP to detect them or obtain a lock on them with lock based weapons but ecm is impenetrable to BAP. So instead every mech gets free stealthing ability along with ecm still able to block bap and artemis of anyone who shoots through the area of effect Lrms can no longer lock without artemis and you still lose c3 systems... but hey atleast then you can dumbfire those streaks -___-

So we have no scanning and targeting computers... hmm, then how come LRMs can lock and how come we can target something and get targeting data. If LRMs were not guided at all (like MRM and rocket launcher that are dumbfire) they would not benefit from artemis. They are guided and always have been guided.

Only the angel ECM denies locks, and only denies lock on streak missiles. If they would just bring over what ECM actually does and not add things to it that other systems are supposed to do, it would still be a powerful thing. It would still be a soft counter to LRMs do to decreasing accuracy and even blocking indirect fire capabilities if the spotter is in the bubble. It doesn't need to be stealth.

Edited by Noth, 22 December 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Sarevos]

Ashnod, on 22 December 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

First, LRM's are always guided, SRM's are semi guided, Artemis is a advanced communication system between the mech and the missile and helps guide it, streaks and LRM's are supposed to be able to lock through GUARDIAN(the one we have) ECM no matter the range, now though ANGEL ECM disrupts the streak targeting system but the missiles are still able to be dumb fired

Lrms in TT are not guided they hit a location not a unit Semi guided lrms are guided but thats a different munition which is not artemis and was invented in 3057

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

So we have no scanning and targeting computers... hmm, then how come LRMs can lock and how come we can target something and get targeting data. If LRMs were not guided at all (like MRM and rocket launcher that are dumbfire) they would not benefit from artemis. They are guided and always have been guided.

Sensors are not scanners or targeting computers technically we require scanners to know what our target has equipped and identify it as w/e chassis it is targeting computers would offer reticules to help lead targets

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Lrms in TT are not guided they hit a location not a unit Semi guided lrms are guided but thats a different munition which is not artemis and was invented in 3057

Semi guided LRMs just allow them to get artemis benefits without LOS by a friendly using TAG.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Semi guided LRMs just allow them to get artemis benefits without LOS by a friendly using TAG.

to get HOMING capability without los its a 2 piece Javelin system where the LRM boat fires and the scout guides the missile

Im assuming that lrms must travel alot faster in tt

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 02:35 PM.

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Sensors are not scanners or targeting computers technically we require scanners to know what our target has equipped and identify it as w/e chassis it is targeting computers would offer reticules to help lead targets

So we have scanners, which shouldn't be blocked by ECM that identifies our target and tells us what we need. Scanner are tied to sensors. You can't run a scanner without sensors. Further, you can't target something without some sort of targeting computer

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

to get HOMING capability without los its a 2 piece Javelin system where the LRM boat fires and the scout guides the missile

Actually it enhances their accuracy, getting benefits of the artemis system without LOS. Seriously, There is no proof that the LRMs do not lock on normally. They have to have base guidance systems and targeting built into them for them to be effected by artemis. Otherwise MRMs wouldn't be unique by the removal of the guidance systems in the missiles. That tells me that LRMs have guidance systems and are not dumbfire, thus need some sort of lock to make use of that guidance system.

[Warlune]

First off, the choices of mechs to put ECM on are HORRIBLE.
Why in the world would you give ECM to the Commando with THREE missile slots? It's stupidly unbalanced and makes the other variants absolutely pointless.
ECM should only be given to the lights with 1 or no missile slots.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

So we have scanners, which shouldn't be blocked by ECM that identifies our target and tells us what we need. Scanner are tied to sensors. You can't run a scanner without sensors. Further, you can't target something without some sort of targeting computer

are you aware of how radar and target acquisition work? targeting computers utilize data from sensors to acquire a useable signature and define a "target" no sesnors = no targeting data

[DocBach]

Instead of semantics like what is and what is not a targeting computer or sensor device, show me where it says LRMs and Streak Missiles cannot be used while being jammed by ECM.

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

are you aware of how radar and target acquisition work? targeting computers utilize data from sensors to acquire a useable signature and define a "target" no sesnors = no targeting data

Yet scanners need sensors, and since it doesn't block scanners, it shouldn't be blocking sensors, and thus not be blocking the simple targeting computer that is on board.

[Mack1]

The fact is you require quite a bit of skill to play without an ECM as you have to prefect the following skills:

• The use of cover to avoid LRM lock
  
• Knowing when to power down to break lock
  
• How to use flanks to sneak around and kill the LRM boats
  
• How to snipe LRM's without being hit
  
• How to spot Streak cats and stay out of their range while killing them
  
• How to circle strafe Streak cats keeping just outside their turn circle preventing lock

Most people prefer 1 button that simply disables their weapons so they don't need to do any of the above. I have argued this for months and been abused on threads, private chat and on my youtube channel. The fact of the matter is ECM removes tactics and skill from MWO and turns it into nothing more than pop the ECM, turtle up and advance, both sides do this, meet in the middle and have a Hawken brawl.

I was expecting a huge ECM nerf on the 18th but it never happened, the Devs are happy and so many people will probably leave and many new people will come. The game will be steered forward by the noobs who demand easymode in everything they do and as a result the game will be boring.

My Son just today started playing MWO, but he is not very old, he watched me on my LRM boat and asked why I did not fire my missiles, I showed him the ECM on the enemy and said it's stopping me from firing any of my missiles on any of the enemy Mechs, do you know what he said? "Are they cheating" And that's coming from a little kid, even he assumed it was a cheat as it's so powerful, I lmao.

So sadly we are just going to have to watch yet another great game get dumbed down to suit all the console kiddies who just simply suck at video games. It happened to WOW and look at how **** that game is now. The really sad thing is it's happening to MWO before it even gets out of Beta.

[TopHatt]

Wow it just is the same thing over and over... ECM works exactly as it used to in the previous Mechwarrior games it seems to me... I remember my displays flickering in MW3 and MW4 from ECM jamming.
Before ECM the primary tactic was to boat lrms and rain missiles without ever actually seeing an enemy mech. Kinda boring really. Streak cats ruled in close quarters and made lights drop fast.
Yes the game changed when ECM came online but the changes are for the better since now some tactics are actually required to win a game.
My thoughts on the constant whining about netcode and lagshields... LEARN TO AIM!!!
Most of the time when I am dead I watch people shooting several mech widths behind their targets...
You have to lead the target!!
It has nothing to do with netcode or anything else... it's just if you aren't hitting something you are a bad shot.

[Kaijin]

Just because I'm not participating in every thread on ECM being OP doesn't mean I don't think it's OP. I do - I just feel all the points that can be made have been made. I post here though in support of the argument that ECM as implemented is indeed a game ruining experience. Even though the Dec 18th patch eliminated my CTD problems, I just haven't had much interest in playing ECM Online.