94 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

hammerreborn, on 29 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I've noticed some people who just had no clue about some things. I guy started arguing with me cause he said there was only 8 man premades, and that when finally corrected said that you couldn't group with less than 4.

In my trials I didn't notice anyone asking about weapons, though in normal experience I've seen the ppc question asked a lot. Then again, look at the million TAG threads that pop in here when it was pretty clearly stated to not work inside the bubble.

One thing I keep forgetting to note. In 40 matches not a single person took the command role. In two premades did anyone give some semblance of a plan, and in less than 10 or so did people even state "stick together" or "stay with atlas"

A lot of questions would be somewhat countered by having robust tool tips and detailed mech/weapon/equipment description. And really, Alpha builds have more in game documentation than we have in MWO.

Hopefully this post will also keep this topic bumped. I really feel this post needs to be on top. Can't be pinned I guess but one can hope.

[hammerreborn]

I agree, while the damage heat numbers are changing, there is no real reason why LRM and ppc minimum range aren't listed.

[Bishop Steiner]

No reason IMO, for a short PvE tutorial Mission to not be included. Have them Run 4 matches, one with each Trial, to achieve certain goals and learn the different weapons, grouping, etc. Then if they complete that give them a CBill Bonus to buying their first mech. The whole 25 game Cadet reward is nice, but doesn't actually TEACH anything, and the NGNG "training Vid" overlooks SOOO many needed points, IF people even felt there was a good reason to spend time watching it.

[hammerreborn]

I disagree on the method of the tutorial. It needs to just be a single mech, like the stalker, which can carry pretty much every weapon anyways, or two for the ballistics. They would need to make a million training vids to encompass every potential trial mech, and the tutorial would have to be designed around each weapon setup.

A stalker with one of each weapon type would allow a user to see how lasers react, pulse lasers, ppcs, LRMs and the srm types. Then have a cataphract for a guass, ac and ultra ac.

[Trauglodyte]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Can't agree with you Lucy.

Are they optimal? No. But in that same Centurion, I was getting 1-2 kills virtually every match, the exceptions usually being when I had the joy of dropping in a group of morons, where we just got rolled. First several matches I got destroyed. Then I changed tactics. And lo and behold, I started racking in kills.

This is kind of why trial mechs fail for a lot of people. Hell, this is why fully optimized mechs fail for a lot of people. Most people that play games are bad. Add them into a FPS sim and they'll be even worse. A lot of people just want to shoot stuff which is why you see, more often then not, someone running ahead of the pack going mega Rambo. You can be good with a trial mech if you understand its role and what it can and cannot do.

Of course, the world's greatest mech pilot in a trial can't make up for 7 mouth breathing idiots.

[hammerreborn]

Just because new players and some players in general are bad doesn't mean that the trial mechs need to be. Like I mentioned, there are plenty of things they could do to improve the trial mech experience. Removing the fairly weak variants could be a start, and possibly t2 upgrades could be added as well. Also, for mechs like the dragon and one of the awesome variants, having more ammo would also be a godsend. 25 shots is just garbage for an autocannon, and I think the awesome had 10 rounds of LRMs. And double heat sinks are just needed. While having single helps new players sort of learn to manage heat, spending half the match shut down in a stalker just isn't fun.

[Lescun]

You have to also consider the lot of trial mechs currently in rotation. Makes a big difference. Also bear in mind that before the cadet bonus that it was 60k a round in a trial mech for a loss. Factor that into your new-player experience before this last patch and calculate roughly how many rounds you'd have to play to get a mech and modify it to your liking.

[hammerreborn]

Mech Diversity!

Method: Played my founders Jenner every match for 40 matches. Indicated any disconnects/AFKs to support previous experiment and each variant on team. I did not mark enemy mechs because their loadout is influenced by my choice of mech (i.e. they will have a light because I'm in a light) as well as being extremely difficult to track mechs that are constantly being destroyed, target lost, etc.

First 20 results raw data:

Spoiler

Round 1:
1. Raven 2x
2. Awesome 9M
3. Atlas D-DC
4. Cataphract 3D
5. Atlas 4S
6. Hunchback 4H
7. Stalker 5m

Round 2:
1. Dragon 5N
2. Cataphract 4x
3. Catapult A1
4. Catapult K2
5. Raven 3L
6. Hunchback 4p
7. Cataphract 4x

Round 3:
1. Stalker5s
2. Cicada 3M
3. Centurion 9D
4. Centurion 9D
5. Stalker 5M
6. Centurion 9A
7. Stalker 5S

Round 4:
1. Catapult K2
2. Catapult K2
3. Jenner K
4. Stalker 3F
5. Stalker 5M
6. Hunchback 4sp
7. Jenner D

Round 5:
1. Raven 2X
2. Raven 2X
3. Raven 4X
4. Raven 3L
5. Catapult A1
6. Catapult C4
7. Atlas D-DC

Round 6:
1. Atlas R2
2. Catapult C1
3. Catapult K2
4. Commando 2D
5. Cataphract 3D
6. Stalker 3F
7. Raven 3L

Round 7:
2DCs (ended in a loss)
1. Hunchback 4H
2. Atlas D-DC
3. Hunchback 4P
4. Raven 4X
5. Catapult C1

Round 8:
1. Stalker 5S
2. Stalker 5S
3. Cataphract 2X
4. Catapult C4
5. Jenner D
6. Raven 2X
7. Commando 3A

Round 9:
1. Jenner K
2. Raven 3L
3. Atlas 4S
4. Flame
5. Stalker 5M
6. Centurion 9D
7. Cataphract 4X

Round 10:
1. Catapult C1
2. Cataphract 1X
3. Centurion 9D
4. Raven 3L
5. Raven 2X
6. Raven 2X
7. Catapult K2

Round 11:
1. Commando 2D
2. Cataphract 3D
3. Atlas K
4. Stalker 5S
5. Stalker 5S
6. Hunchback 4G
7. Fang

Round 12:
1. Atlas D-DC (No ECM)
2. Centurion 9D
3. Catapult A1
4. Hunchback 4H
5. Atlas D
6. Cataphract 2X
7. Cicada 3C

Round 13:
(One DC enemy team: they lost)
1. Jenner K
2. Hunchback 4SP
3. Commando 2D
4. Cataphract 2X
5. Awesome 9M
6. Raven 2X
7. Cicada 2A

Round 14:
1. Cataphract 2X
2. Jenner D
3. Catapult K2
4. Atlas D-DC
5. Atlas D-DC
6. Atlas D-DC
7. Cicada 3C

Round 15:
1. Cataphract 4X
2. Cataphract 4X
3. Atlas D-DC
4. Centurion 9D
5. Centurion 9-AL
6. Muromets
7. Atlas RS

Round 16:
(DC enemy team resulting in loss...also apparently missed a teammate)
1. Centurion 9-AL
2. Raven 2X
3. Stalker 5M
4. Catapult K2
5. Dragon 1C
6. Catapult A1

Round 17:
1. Catapult C1
2. Stalker 5M
3. Dragon 1C
4. Cicada 3C
5. Cataphract 1x
6. Jenner D
7. Stalker 3F

Round 18:
1. Hunchback 4SP
2. Cataphract 4X
3. Centurion 9-AL
4. Hunchback 4G
5. Flame
6. Cicada 3M
7. Stalker 5S

Round 19:
(again, missed someone somehow)
1. Hunchback 4SP
2. Raven 3L
3. Atlas D-DC
4. Cataphract 2X
5. Atlas 4S
6. Raven 3L

Round 20:
1. Dragon 5N
2. Muromets
3. Hunchback 4G
4. Hunchback 4J
5. Stalker 3F
6. Atlas D-DC
7. Cataphract 3D

Working on calculations now for the first twenty. Check again in 5-10 mins.

Total Mechs Tabulated: 136

Notes:
Percentages is going to be doing in the following (examples following):

Lights:
Total: 5 (%overall of class)

Jenner
Total: 5 (%total of class/%total overall)

D: 5 (%total Chassis/%total overall)

First 20 Round results (note: 135 is totaled, not sure which was missed)

Spoiler

Hero Mechs:
Total: 5 (3.7%)

Yen-Lo-Wang: 0 (0%/0%)
Fang: 1 (20%/.7%)
Flame: 2 (40%/1.5%)
Ilya Muromets: 2 (40%/1.5%)

Trial Mechs:
Total: 20 (14.8%)

2X (current trial): 8 (40%/5.9%)
D (trial mech): 6 (30%/4.4%)
5N (trial mech): 2 (10/1.5%)
3F (trial mech): 4 (20%/3.0%)


Lights:
Total: 28 (20.7%)

Commandos
Total: 4 (14.3%/3.0%)

1B: 0
1D: 0
2D: 3 (75%/2.2%)
3A: 1 (25%/.7%)

Jenners
Total: 7 (25%/5.2%)

D: 4 (57.1%/3.0%)
F: 0
K: 3 (42.9%/2.2%)

Ravens
Total: 17 (60.7%/12.6%)

2X (current trial): 8 (47.1%/5.9%)
3L: 7 (41.2%/5.2%)
4X: 2 (11.8%/1.5%)

Mediums:
Total: 29 (21.5%)

Cicadas
Total: 6 (20.7%/4.4%)

2A: 1 (16.7%/.7%)
2B: 0
3C: 3 (50%/2.1%)
3M: 2 (33.3%/1.5%)

Centurions
Total: 10 (34.5%/7.4%)

Yen-Lo-Wang: 0
A: 1 (10%/.7%)
AL: 3 (30%/2.2%)
D (trial mech): 6 (60%/4.4%)

Hunchbacks
Total: 13 (46.4%/9.6%)

4G: 3 (23.1%/2.2%)
4H: 3 (23.1%/2.2%)
4J: 1 (7.7%/.7%)
4P: 2 (15.4%/1.5%)
4SP: 4 (30.8%/3.0%)

Heavies
Total: 43 (31.9%)

Dragons
Total: 7 (16.3%/5.2%)

Fang: 1 (14.3%/.7%)
Flame: 2 (28.6/1.5%)
1C: 2 (28.6/1.5%)
1N: 0
5N (trial mech): 2 (28.6/1.5%)

Catapults
Total: 17 (39.5%/12.6%)

A1: 4 (23.5%/3.0%)
C1: 4 (23.5%/3.0%)
C4: 2 (11.8/1.5%)
K2: 7 (41.2/5.2%)

Cataphracts
Total: 19 (44.2%/14.7%)

Muromets: 2 (10.5%/1.5%)
1X: 2 (10.5%/1.5%)
2X: 5 (26.3%/3.7%)
3D: 4 (21.1%/3.0%)
4X: 6 (31.6%/4.4%)

Assaults:
Total: 35 (25.9%)

Awesomes
Total: 2 (5.7%/1.5%)

8Q: 0
8R: 0
8T: 0
8V: 0
9M: 2 (100%/1.5%)

Stalkers
Total: 17 (48.6%/12.6%)

3F (trial mech): 4 (23.5%/3.0%)
3H: 0
4N: 0
5M: 6 (35.3%/4.4%)
5S: 7 (41.2%/5.2%)

Atlases/Atlai
Total: 16 (45.8%/11.9%)

D: 1 (6.3%/.7%)
D-DC: 10 (62.5%/7.4%)
K: 1 (6.3%/.7%)
RS: 4 (25%/3.0%)

TL;DR

The most numerous chassis is the Cataphract, followed closely by Catapults/Stalkers and then the Atlas.

The most numerous class are heavies, followed by Assaults, and lights and mediums are basically equal and far behind the other two.

The least numerous chassis is the awesome, with a sad and pitiful 2

Trial Mechs were ~15% of all mechs (not precise, some of the mechs may have been custom of the trial variant)

Hero Mechs were 4% of all mechs

ECM mechs were 22/135, or 16.3% of all mechs.

12 of 51 chassis were not used, pretty much all of them the awesome

I'm tired of math for today, will maybe run the other results some other time.

================================================================

Thanks to some extra help from users soarra and MuonNeutrino, we're now up to 87 total rounds cataloged, totalling 595 total mechs. And now posted in a much more readable fashion!





Now with Chassis and Class breakdowns!


Other notes: As in the new player experience trials, the team with a disconnect lost (but in these 20 cases, 100% of the time)

Edited by hammerreborn, 01 January 2013 - 07:12 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I wanted to thank you for the work hammer, and also point out something that was brought up in another thread, don't take it wrong though.

What you are doing doesn't replicate the new player experience at all.

You know how the weapons work, you know how the mechs work, in other words, you aren't a new player. You can jump in a Trial Mech and just follow the herd to try and ACT like a new player, but you aren't one and the game you are seeing isn't what they see.

Facing..feet and body going 2 different directions..do you really remember how confusing that was the very first time you ever had to deal with it? Different weapons that you can fire seperately OR in groups OR all at once! Oh, and they create heat, which can do bad things to you or something not really sure but you stay in shutdown a LOT, I think it's a fault of the hero you are playing or something, not really sure. Oh, and you need AMMO! And it can blow up and kill you! somehow..not sure.

I can lie and say I remember how those felt, but why bother, I don't remember, it's been too many years, but I can imagine it easy enough..just listen to the new players in ingame chat sometimes..once they figure out how to chat

Otherwise, love the work, some great stats showing up.

[hammerreborn]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I wanted to thank you for the work hammer, and also point out something that was brought up in another thread, don't take it wrong though.

What you are doing doesn't replicate the new player experience at all.

You know how the weapons work, you know how the mechs work, in other words, you aren't a new player. You can jump in a Trial Mech and just follow the herd to try and ACT like a new player, but you aren't one and the game you are seeing isn't what they see.

Facing..feet and body going 2 different directions..do you really remember how confusing that was the very first time you ever had to deal with it? Different weapons that you can fire seperately OR in groups OR all at once! Oh, and they create heat, which can do bad things to you or something not really sure but you stay in shutdown a LOT, I think it's a fault of the hero you are playing or something, not really sure. Oh, and you need AMMO! And it can blow up and kill you! somehow..not sure.

I can lie and say I remember how those felt, but why bother, I don't remember, it's been too many years, but I can imagine it easy enough..just listen to the new players in ingame chat sometimes..once they figure out how to chat

Otherwise, love the work, some great stats showing up.

I'm not saying these numbers are to be expected of any new player, nor am i pretending to be. Even if a new player did half as well as me, that's still nearly a 1:1 KD ratio with the centurion. The comment about heat doesn't really apply, as playing with no hotkeys would omit the chainfire/alpha buttons, and so would be fired using just the preset weapon groups using just the mouse clicks (though with the stalker I needed to press 5 to fire the LRMs).

I would also expect a new player to improve and learn the hotkeys and how to torso twist over the course of 40 games, rather than hampering themselves for the entire duration as I did. Those first 10 games will be rough, sure, but there should be a marked improvement at least halfway through. Nor would I truely expect someone to play the raven 10 times, then the cent, then the dragon, then the stalker. If I were a true new player, I would have basically stuck to the centurion/stalker the entire time once I realized how well I did with it.

I was really trying to observe the following:
a) are premades that prevalent and ruining the game (plausible; the larger premade won ~60% of the time)
trial mechs are garbage (false; the Cent and Stalker are fine trial mechs, but trial mechs could use work overall)
c) Takes too long to obtain a mech (false; new cadet bonuses would have gotten me a light mech in only 10 rounds, which took all of 45 minutes. In ~4 hours I obtained 10.5 million C-bills).

[Bishop Steiner]

hammerreborn, on 29 December 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I disagree on the method of the tutorial. It needs to just be a single mech, like the stalker, which can carry pretty much every weapon anyways, or two for the ballistics. They would need to make a million training vids to encompass every potential trial mech, and the tutorial would have to be designed around each weapon setup.

A stalker with one of each weapon type would allow a user to see how lasers react, pulse lasers, ppcs, LRMs and the srm types. Then have a cataphract for a guass, ac and ultra ac.

well, firstly, I don't want a training video. I want a tutorial, PvE section added. That is the ONLY good way to train new players in a high learning curve game. I do agree, a single mech with all Hardpoints would be more Ideal than multiple, so something with all 3 types of weapons AND decent mobility would be the ideal choice, like a CN9-A or Cataphract-2X.

I do believe the less than OP nature, moderate heat curve, and canon commonality of the Centurion would make it the better choice for a Training Course/Cadet Mission. Heck, the couuld steal the basics off of MW2, 3 or 4 almost verbatim and do a pretty good job.

Trauglodyte, on 29 December 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

This is kind of why trial mechs fail for a lot of people. Hell, this is why fully optimized mechs fail for a lot of people. Most people that play games are bad. Add them into a FPS sim and they'll be even worse. A lot of people just want to shoot stuff which is why you see, more often then not, someone running ahead of the pack going mega Rambo. You can be good with a trial mech if you understand its role and what it can and cannot do.

Of course, the world's greatest mech pilot in a trial can't make up for 7 mouth breathing idiots.

True, but since we have a million games designed to cater to the mouth-breathing pew pew crowd Modern Warfare 3, Battlefield 3, CoD, Hawken, ANYTHING with the term "UnReal" in it, etc.......), is it too much to ask to actually have title that strives to achieve a semi-skilled pilot base?

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I wanted to thank you for the work hammer, and also point out something that was brought up in another thread, don't take it wrong though.

What you are doing doesn't replicate the new player experience at all.

You know how the weapons work, you know how the mechs work, in other words, you aren't a new player. You can jump in a Trial Mech and just follow the herd to try and ACT like a new player, but you aren't one and the game you are seeing isn't what they see.

Facing..feet and body going 2 different directions..do you really remember how confusing that was the very first time you ever had to deal with it? Different weapons that you can fire seperately OR in groups OR all at once! Oh, and they create heat, which can do bad things to you or something not really sure but you stay in shutdown a LOT, I think it's a fault of the hero you are playing or something, not really sure. Oh, and you need AMMO! And it can blow up and kill you! somehow..not sure.

I can lie and say I remember how those felt, but why bother, I don't remember, it's been too many years, but I can imagine it easy enough..just listen to the new players in ingame chat sometimes..once they figure out how to chat

Otherwise, love the work, some great stats showing up.

Not trying to cause contention... but is foot/torso facing REALLY that difficult? I cannot remember ever, not once, that being an issue on any Mechwarrior title I ever played. (When in doubt, press "C" which automatically re-aligns the two).

It just seems like some of the reasoning I hear,...... makes me wonder if most people have trouble chewing gum and walking at the same time... or if I am just smarter than I realize?

[Sandslice]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not trying to cause contention... but is foot/torso facing REALLY that difficult? I cannot remember ever, not once, that being an issue on any Mechwarrior title I ever played. (When in doubt, press "C" which automatically re-aligns the two).

It just seems like some of the reasoning I hear,...... makes me wonder if most people have trouble chewing gum and walking at the same time... or if I am just smarter than I realize?

In the Mechwarrior titles, HUD-map snapped to your legs (and optionally to north,) and your front cone swept across with your torso twisting. In MWO, HUD-map snaps to your torso, with your leg direction sweeping across in the opposite direction. I still sometimes feel like I'm playing with an inverted x-axis in a circle-dance type battle because of it, because trying to use the HUD to correct it is backwards.

[JSparrowist]

Forget it.. lol


Move along, move along

Edited by JSparrowist, 30 December 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sandslice, on 30 December 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

In the Mechwarrior titles, HUD-map snapped to your legs (and optionally to north,) and your front cone swept across with your torso twisting. In MWO, HUD-map snaps to your torso, with your leg direction sweeping across in the opposite direction. I still sometimes feel like I'm playing with an inverted x-axis in a circle-dance type battle because of it, because trying to use the HUD to correct it is backwards.

still doesn't answer why I never even noticed an issue with torso/leg orientation. And I am a "joystick" jockey originally who had to learn Mouse + KB for this game. And I never once had a remote issue with it.

[RainbowToh]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

still doesn't answer why I never even noticed an issue with torso/leg orientation. And I am a "joystick" jockey originally who had to learn Mouse + KB for this game. And I never once had a remote issue with it.

dude you have been playing mechwarrior all ur life. you cant really compare yourself to those who have never tried the game/franchise before.

Edited by RainbowToh, 31 December 2012 - 12:03 AM.

[hammerreborn]

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1681562 for some more raw data from user Soarra. Thanks!

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bishop, you'd be amazed at the things that totally stump new players that you and I would consider innate skills. After watching my wife try a hand at the controls, I can easily understand that Keep in mind, MOST FPS games don't have seperate facing for legs and torso, where you look is where you fire is where you go and that lack of restriction really catches new players up sometimes. Control interface is too much for some, especially console gamers who have no PC gaming history beyond Farmville, but to some of us it's SO limited right now it's almost a kiddy control system...think about that, new players without any experience in video games beyond CoD or LoL if even that limited amount, this beta is being advertised on Facebook in it's Games section, my wife pointed that out to me, and she's got 0 experience in FPS gaming, she was totally lost until I helped her. This thing REALLY needs a tutorial, that's been said by more then a few of us already, but that's not the subject at hand. New Player experience is, and for that, we are very much the wrong people to ask or listen to

[Vassago Rain]

Kristov Kerensky, on 31 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Bishop, you'd be amazed at the things that totally stump new players that you and I would consider innate skills. After watching my wife try a hand at the controls, I can easily understand that Keep in mind, MOST FPS games don't have seperate facing for legs and torso, where you look is where you fire is where you go and that lack of restriction really catches new players up sometimes. Control interface is too much for some, especially console gamers who have no PC gaming history beyond Farmville, but to some of us it's SO limited right now it's almost a kiddy control system...think about that, new players without any experience in video games beyond CoD or LoL if even that limited amount, this beta is being advertised on Facebook in it's Games section, my wife pointed that out to me, and she's got 0 experience in FPS gaming, she was totally lost until I helped her. This thing REALLY needs a tutorial, that's been said by more then a few of us already, but that's not the subject at hand. New Player experience is, and for that, we are very much the wrong people to ask or listen to

If you have zero FPS experience, then the original Doom would be hard for you.

[hammerreborn]

Vassago Rain, on 31 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

If you have zero FPS experience, then the original Doom would be hard for you.

I can't understand this post. There is no cat or anime girl picture to explain it to me.

And can we try and keep this away from how legit the method was? I mean it's not like I'm saying that new users shouldn't have issues or anything playing the game, and have admitted a tutorial is needed. Please try and keep the discussion based on the new user economy and the trial mech experience, or mech diversity. I know that means this will be lost in the forum in like an hour compared to troll posts like "this game is unfair" or the 1000000000000000th ECM ***** thread, but still, I'd like at least one constructive thread.

Edited by hammerreborn, 31 December 2012 - 09:37 AM.