209 replies to this topic

[De La Fresniere]

BerryChunks, on 05 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

I count efficiency as the ability to disable or destroy an enemy mech as quickly as possible so they arent a threat.

LLs fail in that respect, due to tonnage, heat, and the way they deal damage. IF you hit 6 PPCs right torso and cause ammo explosion you can get an instant kill, which is way more efficient than plinking soomeone hoping they die before you.

If you read my post instead of Liking your own, I wouldn't have to repeat myself:

Unless you have Parkinson's, it's accurate enough to get all its damage to a single section of the mech too, and with absolutely no travel time on the beam you *cannot* hit the wrong section by mistake.

The difference between 6xLL and 6xPPC? The LL do 54 damage instead of 60 and have less upper range... but they'll cost you *12 fewer tons*, *6 fewer slots* and the heat generation is so much better I wouldn't even dare make the comparison, plus they work perfectly under 90m.

The LLs win, and that's in the worst possible situation, 6 Energy hardpoints and a mech huge enough to accomodate those heavy weapons (PPCs are effective when boated, garbage otherwise).

4xPPC on my Flame, better than 4xLL? For someone who can't aim, probably. Otherwise, the LL are much much much much much much superior.

[De La Fresniere]

lordkrike, on 05 January 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

It just runs hotter than I'd like, I suppose.

A totally understandable feeling, but that's actually an illusion.

You do have to pace yourself, but its heat-efficiency is actually good for an Energy build (the damage-per-heat is as good as that of Medium Lasers) and its dissipation is great.

Some people use the 350 XL, 14 DHS version... now that I just couldn't do.

[BerryChunks]

De La Fresniere, on 05 January 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

If you read my post instead of Liking your own, I wouldn't have to repeat myself:

Unless you have Parkinson's, it's accurate enough to get all its damage to a single section of the mech too, and with absolutely no travel time on the beam you *cannot* hit the wrong section by mistake.

The difference between 6xLL and 6xPPC? The LL do 54 damage instead of 60 and have less upper range... but they'll cost you *12 fewer tons*, *6 fewer slots* and the heat generation is so much better I wouldn't even dare make the comparison, plus they work perfectly under 90m.

The LLs win, and that's in the worst possible situation, 6 Energy hardpoints and a mech huge enough to accomodate those heavy weapons (PPCs are effective when boated, garbage otherwise).

4xPPC on my Flame, better than 4xLL? For someone who can't aim, probably. Otherwise, the LL are much much much much much much superior.

I assume enemy mechs are standing still for you then? OR you're firing point blank? Those are the only two realistic scenarios where a LL will conduct all its damage to a single point through good aiming.

Between people turning, torso rolling your damage, and other factors, a "miss" with PPCs, that still tears off an arm and some weapons instead of instant kills, is still better than LL.

If you want to prove me wrong. Fraps yourself going for a few days in an assault mech with LLs and let us see the result.

I suspect part of the LL issue is that, while PPC heat instantly builds, and then starts falling just as fast as it grew, LL heat slowly builds, and then finally starts to fall after the firing cycle is done. You have more control with the second, because you can pick and choose shots and when to be superheated or lay off the trigger. You are reducing your committal time.

Edited by BerryChunks, 05 January 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[De La Fresniere]

BerryChunks, on 05 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

I assume enemy mechs are standing still for you then? OR you're firing point blank? Those are the only two realistic scenarios where a LL will conduct all its damage to a single point through good aiming.

Between people turning, torso rolling your damage, and other factors, a "miss" with PPCs, that still tears off an arm and some weapons instead of instant kills, is still better than LL.

If you want to prove me wrong. Fraps yourself going for a few days in an assault mech with LLs and let us see the result.

I suspect part of the LL issue is that, while PPC heat instantly builds, and then starts falling just as fast as it grew, LL heat slowly builds, and then finally starts to fall after firing. You have more control with the second, because you can pick and choose shots and when to be superheated or lay off the trigger. You are reducing your committal time.

Why an Assault mech? I don't even own one, damn things are just asking to, well... be shot in whatever section the shooter desires.

I could attempt to Fraps myself. I strongly suspect my computer wouldn't be able to handle it, but you'd see how easy it is to aim. I mean come on, keep your mouse reticule on something for a second, how hard can it be?

Yes, LLs being able to fire so much more often, in addition to improving my DPS considerably, allow me to take opportunities, and there's plenty of those. Most people don't twist, opponents have to face me to fire and, for some builds (a Cataphract with AC/2s or AC/5s, for example) they never, ever turn away.

I generally only do modest damage, maybe 400 on average, but I know almost none of it is wasted. I place it when it's gonna destroy something.

Once I did 1,191, killed half the opposing team. I'd never have been able to do that with PPCs.

[SpiralRazor]

De La Fresniere, on 05 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

A totally understandable feeling, but that's actually an illusion.

You do have to pace yourself, but its heat-efficiency is actually good for an Energy build (the damage-per-heat is as good as that of Medium Lasers) and its dissipation is great.

Some people use the 350 XL, 14 DHS version... now that I just couldn't do.

My 5s uses two more LLs and at 20DHS. Of course, the mech has the trees filled out to make it viable. You can pretty much only run it if you have the X2 Basics bonus.

[SpiralRazor]

The thing with 6 PPCS is you must LAND all your shots, otherwise your slot on the team is wasted. If you miss a single volley, your dps goes straight in the toilet as you must wait a LONG time to get another volley off.

Also, you are almost completely gimped under 90 meters, and even more gimped if a Raven 3L etc decides he wants to molest you.


Point of fact ==== Ive done more damage and had a higher rank on the End Screen chart then any 6 PPC mech ive ever run with. I can also categorically say that when i run that configuration myself, that 7/10 i know id have been better off packing my lasers instead....3 and 7 compared to 2 and 5 is A LOT of stuff.....a lot.


LLs con over PPCs is that they do much less past there optimal range and tend to splash damage at extreme ranges. LLs require you to stand out in the open for longer as well.

LLS pros over PPCs are umm...everything else.

[De La Fresniere]

SpiralRazor, on 05 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

My 5s uses two more LLs and at 20DHS. Of course, the mech has the trees filled out to make it viable. You can pretty much only run it if you have the X2 Basics bonus.

I'm fine with that number of LLs. The important factors are damage-per-heat and dissipation; more Lasers just mean you can burst harder if you want to, which is great. In my book, 6xLL and 20 DHS is more heat-efficient than 4xLL and 19 DHS.

[HC Harlequin]

SpiralRazor, on 05 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Okay, i get your Idea just fine.
Heres where I think you are going wrong though:
A) Your hypothetical situation does not come up that often for me. My damage is dealt via more consistent means...I cant ever remember being in that particular spot...but if i were, yes, I would choose the weapon that puts the most damage on one location, the EPPC/LPL.

Interesting. Well, purely as pilot preference I deliberately go for ammo based weapons as my primary damage and leave the energy weapons for backup. So I will generally end up in situations with high heat where I need to snap shoot a fast mover and I don't have time to muck around.

[Ryolacap]

You guys are forgetting about crit seekers, 2mpl or 4 ml will not all get a crit and if they did probably not in the same spot. LPL you will crit seek waaaay better, 1 success = BOOM! I've done way better crit seeking with lpls than anything else. 90% hit chance stay on target and boom. The lpl is the most accurate crit seeker in the game IMO

[De La Fresniere]

Ryolacap, on 06 January 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

You guys are forgetting about crit seekers, 2mpl or 4 ml will not all get a crit and if they did probably not in the same spot. LPL you will crit seek waaaay better, 1 success = BOOM! I've done way better crit seeking with lpls than anything else. 90% hit chance stay on target and boom. The lpl is the most accurate crit seeker in the game IMO

Lasers deal damage in "ticks", don't they? So they're pretty much all terrible for crits, LPLs included.

[HC Harlequin]

De La Fresniere, on 06 January 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Lasers deal damage in "ticks", don't they? So they're pretty much all terrible for crits, LPLs included.

no. each pulse has a chance to crit right away. normal lasers have to track the location for a certain amount of time before they have a chance to crit.
So if you put all the pulses in a 5 pulse laser on a target you got a full 5 chances to TAC through or 47% on internals, whereas if you only "wash" a target with normals you may get no chances to crit even if you slightly damage the tgt.

[De La Fresniere]

HC Harlequin, on 06 January 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

no. each pulse has a chance to crit right away. normal lasers have to track the location for a certain amount of time before they have a chance to crit.
So if you put all the pulses in a 5 pulse laser on a target you got a full 5 chances to TAC through or 47% on internals, whereas if you only "wash" a target with normals you may get no chances to crit even if you slightly damage the tgt.

That's extremely odd behavior. I can't begin to imagine why they'd have coded it like that, it makes absolutely no sense.

I can't even look into it because there's no official resources...

[Ryolacap]

De La Fresniere, on 06 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

That's extremely odd behavior. I can't begin to imagine why they'd have coded it like that, it makes absolutely no sense.

I can't even look into it because there's no official resources...

I don't know about odd, you have to get something for the extra cost. it does make them pretty relevant as I said. Especially when you start multiplying crit damage, even with 10 med lasers there a chance to get 0% opportunity for a crit.

Sorry LPL lovers the cats out of the bag.

Edited by Ryolacap, 06 January 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[De La Fresniere]

Ryolacap, on 06 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

I don't know about odd, you have to get something for the extra cost. it does make them pretty relevant as I said. Especially when you start multiplying crit damage, even with 10 med lasers there a chance to get 0% opportunity for a crit.

Sorry LPL lovers the cats out of the bag.

They could have reduced the weight or the heat or tripled crit damage or anything that makes sense.

Why make it so they get an instant crit chance? And does that mean if I just swipe pulse lasers across foes/sections, I get a chance to crit for the full laser's damage on each?

I keep my (normal) lasers' beams on a single section for the full duration most of the time, and I tend to rely on actual section destruction rather than try for crits, so I still wouldn't use pulse lasers even if they were that good at crits... but I'll admit I really want to know what could possess anyone to code crit chance like that. It's totally random and arbitrary, doesn't seem to have any roots in reason whatsoever. Frankly I don't buy it...

[HC Harlequin]

De La Fresniere, on 06 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

That's extremely odd behavior. I can't begin to imagine why they'd have coded it like that, it makes absolutely no sense.

I can't even look into it because there's no official resources...

Lolwut? Why do you think people keep looking at MG.. It's another "high crit" weapon. Same with LB10X and SRM's.. and LRMs.. Each weapon impact has a chance to crit. There is like a 2% TAC and 47% internal for each impact.
Every time you see that "CRITICAL DAMAGE" pop up on your HUD. Where did you think it was coming from? Someone hit you and rolled a 2% TAC and something internal has however many less points on the system. Why do you think people are now crying about the Gauss rifle dying all the time now?
Every weapon impact even on normal armor has like a 2% or some odd chance to TAC and damage an internal location for however much damage. And when you have no armor it's like 47%.

[HC Harlequin]

De La Fresniere, on 06 January 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Why make it so they get an instant crit chance? And does that mean if I just swipe pulse lasers across foes/sections, I get a chance to crit for the full laser's damage on each?

No? just the damage from each pulse? And every weapon impact has the same chance to crit. See above..

[De La Fresniere]

HC Harlequin, on 06 January 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Lolwut? Why do you think people keep looking at MG.. It's another "high crit" weapon. Same with LB10X

These weapons are absolutely *terrible* for crits. The worst in the game, in fact.

They crit very often (42% chance to crit per hit)... for pathetic amounts of crit damage. And the high frequency of crits mean their crit damage is spread among all items in that section... basically making sure those items are gonna stay functional as long as possible.

The only exception would be a Gauss, which will take a lot of crits due to its large number of slots and has only 3 health instead of 10. That one item is vulnerable to crits from those weapons, but that's it.

[HC Harlequin]

De La Fresniere, on 06 January 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

These weapons are absolutely *terrible* for crits. The worst in the game, in fact.

They crit very often (42% chance to crit per hit)... for pathetic amounts of crit damage. And the high frequency of crits mean their crit damage is spread among all items in that section... basically making sure those items are gonna stay functional as long as possible.

The only exception would be a Gauss, which will take a lot of crits due to its large number of slots and has only 3 health instead of 10. That one item is vulnerable to crits from those weapons, but that's it.

Ya.. I know. That's the point.
But you asked if pulse lasers get a special insta crit chance.. They don't. They get the same as everything else. It's just that the damage/crits when compared to normal lasers are applied differently. The pulse counts as an instant hit, just like any of the others that don't have the DOT characteristic that normal lasers do. Which means that hit does it's damage right away and the crit chance right away. And each pulse is a seperate damage and crit chance application. This is not unusual, was just trying to answer the question as I understand it.

[De La Fresniere]

HC Harlequin, on 06 January 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Ya.. I know. That's the point.
But you asked if pulse lasers get a special insta crit chance.. They don't. They get the same as everything else. It's just that the damage/crits when compared to normal lasers are applied differently. The pulse counts as an instant hit, just like any of the others that don't have the DOT characteristic that normal lasers do. Which means that hit does it's damage right away and the crit chance right away. And each pulse is a seperate damage and crit chance application. This is not unusual, was just trying to answer the question as I understand it.

Well then, that doesn't bother me at all. I keep my lasers on target for the full duration most of the time, and I'm perfectly fine with waiting a fraction of a second more for a crit.

And pulse lasers still suck, haha.

Thanks for clarifying. Now off for food I go!

[BoPop]

bumped this cuz i see no difference really in ER PPC vs PPC except that ER PPC seems better hands down, it will just cost you a tad heat efficiency but at least it has way more range and zero minimum range.

doesn't make sense, the PPC should at LEAST have a slot less req. or weigh a ton less or SOMEThing. or rather the ER PPC should have the minimum range the PPC has.

right?