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Ecm Revision Poll


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Poll: ECM Revision Poll (258 member(s) have cast votes)

How would you prefer ECM to be implemented if it were to be revised?

  1. Revised to satisfy the majority of the major concerns noted on the numerous ECM threads on this forum. (58 votes [22.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.48%

  2. Revised to the description of Guardian ECM as it is described on Sarna.net and/or Table Top Rules (ie. BattleTech: Total Warfare). (144 votes [55.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.81%

  3. ECM should not be revised since its current implementation is satisfactory. (36 votes [13.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.95%

  4. ECM should be removed from the game completely. (20 votes [7.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.75%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41 Arcticfox9

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostWolf of Fenrir, on 15 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:


huh? I said it made it a crap shoot. Just because something you'd like to do can get countered in a game doesn't mean a viable part of the game should be changed/removed.


Countering tactics are expected of players in dealing with opposition tactics/technologies that are problematic. Even with ECM in its current form, good group organization, direct counter to ECM, and utilization of other weapon types dramatically reduce the affects of ECM on a match.

By nature, this is a team game. Specialized builds (LRM boats) will require some kind of support. Players should not be wandering off alone. Moving in the open without cover should only be considered if the player(s) are out of range of most weapons.

#42 Lexeii

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:00 PM

Didn't bother to read the whole thread, read enough ECM threads already...

and although i havn't got a problem with the current ECM...

How about you just deny ECM users the use of guided weapons? Or the use of guided weapons under the umbrella for everyone? you could have ppl still targetted from outside via tag... you would have to use the ECM in a more tactical way so you don't hurt your team.
additionally let one counter ecm counter every ecm in range... so as to enable some coordinated teamplay with guided weapons...

i like my idea. just realised it.

#43 Arcticfox9

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

For those that have read enough ECM threads and are too exhausted from expressing an opinion, participation in this poll can simply be limited to the poll itself.

Grouping player opinion by these general options is valuable in simplifying the direction that most people would like ECM to take.

#44 Dragon Mech Delta

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

this patch sucks cant even play the game yet and im already from seeing this patch on youtoob rethinking my decision to try and play i wanted to play since it wasn't like COD or halo they bore me now since when i last played i got a 34 kills and 2 deaths ratio with a ghost so its become to easy id like the thrill of saying crap when im being vaporized but if this is not revised i think halo wars is decades ahead of u in entertainment u made basically a Mega tool all it needs is reduced power and assuming that everyone would carry them make the EMCs produce heat so that artillery can still be used.

#45 Arcticfox9

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

Current Poll as it stands @ January 15th 12:25pm PDT:

~23% would like an interactive community/developer review and implementation based on observations of the current system (Option 1)
~78% believe that some kind of change is required. (Options 1 & 2)
~55% would like to see a reset to Table Top rules with gradual adjustments for online play. (Option 2)
~39% have have some interest in Table Top rules and are more in favor of adjusting current rules governing ECM. (Options 1 & 3)
~16% are in agreement that ECM is implemented properly for this game. (Option 3)
~6% would like to see ECM removed indefinitely. (Option 4)

Edited by Arcticfox9, 15 January 2013 - 12:29 PM.


#46 Strum Wealh

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:00 PM

As it happens, I voted option 3 ("ECM should not be revised since its current implementation is satisfactory.") in large part because I've found that the majority of its stated capabilities can apparently be traced back to the BattleTech gameplay rules (specifically, the advanced equipment and Double-Blind rules found in Tactical Operations), or seem to be logical inferences or consequences thereof (that is, for much of the reason why one might vote for option 2).

As an example, I recently put forward a couple of posts (here and here) regarding Guardian's effects against standard-issue 'Mech sensors (that is, no BAP/Artemis/C3/etc) and how that relates to the BattleMech's ability to detect and lock onto an ECM-equipped opponent (with a bit of contrast with regard to Angel's effects).

Arcticfox9: I'd be interested in knowing what you think of the two posts I've linked above... ;)

#47 Arcticfox9

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 15 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

As it happens, I voted option 3 ("ECM should not be revised since its current implementation is satisfactory.") in large part because I've found that the majority of its stated capabilities can apparently be traced back to the BattleTech gameplay rules (specifically, the advanced equipment and Double-Blind rules found in Tactical Operations), or seem to be logical inferences or consequences thereof (that is, for much of the reason why one might vote for option 2).

As an example, I recently put forward a couple of posts (here and here) regarding Guardian's effects against standard-issue 'Mech sensors (that is, no BAP/Artemis/C3/etc) and how that relates to the BattleMech's ability to detect and lock onto an ECM-equipped opponent (with a bit of contrast with regard to Angel's effects).

Arcticfox9: I'd be interested in knowing what you think of the two posts I've linked above... ;)


Actually, I'm with you on your posts for the most part. I agree with how it operates in terms of detecting targets via sensors and how target locks are greatly affected.

I don't own TacOps, but I'm familiar with the bonus tables and how they are applied in Table Top. Trying to apply those tables to this online rendition is problematic and I realize that the devs will have to implement it differently or in a manner that is subject to interpretation.

However, the only point that I would change is how ECMs affect SSRMs and LRMs. I think these should be able to fire in dumb fire. ie. SSRMs would function as SRMs and LRMs would fire and zero in on the location that is manually targeted. In this situation, people wouldn't have a valid argument for missile usage.

Depending on the hat I'm wearing, I tend to vote either Option 2 or 3. I don't even consider Option 1 since I know that this game must move forward and there is a lot of literature out there that would allow the devs to make sound judgement about what can be implemented in a feasible manner.

#48 Arcticfox9

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

Current Poll as it stands @ January 15th 5:25pm PDT:

~21% would like an interactive community/developer review and implementation based on observations of the current system (Option 1)
~77% believe that some kind of change is required. (Options 1 & 2)
~56% would like to see a reset to Table Top rules with gradual adjustments for online play. (Option 2)
~36% have have some interest in Table Top rules and are more in favor of adjusting current rules governing ECM. (Options 1 & 3)
~15% are in agreement that ECM is implemented properly for this game. (Option 3)
~7% would like to see ECM removed indefinitely. (Option 4)

#49 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:07 PM

The ability to use it as a cloak for the main force needs to be removed. the ECM protects only the mech using it, not everybody around it that is a friendly.

#50 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 15 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

As it happens, I voted option 3 ("ECM should not be revised since its current implementation is satisfactory.") in large part because I've found that the majority of its stated capabilities can apparently be traced back to the BattleTech gameplay rules (specifically, the advanced equipment and Double-Blind rules found in Tactical Operations), or seem to be logical inferences or consequences thereof (that is, for much of the reason why one might vote for option 2).

As an example, I recently put forward a couple of posts (here and here) regarding Guardian's effects against standard-issue 'Mech sensors (that is, no BAP/Artemis/C3/etc) and how that relates to the BattleMech's ability to detect and lock onto an ECM-equipped opponent (with a bit of contrast with regard to Angel's effects).

Arcticfox9: I'd be interested in knowing what you think of the two posts I've linked above... :D

So how does all of that equate to not being able to target enemy 'mechs which we can see using Mark I Standard Human Eyeballs or IR/Mag scans? How does it equate to being unable to share data with friendly units? Where in TacOps does it state that Guardian ECM forces standard guided LRMS/SRMs to dumb-fire with decreased accuracy/cluster-hit as per dead-fire missiles or MRMs? Where does it prevent units from acting as spotters for LRM indirect-fire?

I can understand having difficulty with scans against hidden units or in low-visibility conditions, but the range of powers granted to ECM goes way beyond what you've listed.

#51 Marj

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

Most of the problems with ecm can be fixed with better netcode and collisions. The biggest problem I have with it is the loss of information. This is a team game. How are you supposed to support your teammates when you don't know where they are or which enemy they are fighting? If one team can focus fire while the other can't... this is why it ruins pug games.

#52 Strum Wealh

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostArcticfox9, on 15 January 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

However, the only point that I would change is how ECMs affect SSRMs and LRMs. I think these should be able to fire in dumb fire. ie. SSRMs would function as SRMs and LRMs would fire and zero in on the location that is manually targeted. In this situation, people wouldn't have a valid argument for missile usage.

I find that I must disagree with this point regarding Streaks (even though I do agree with regard to the LRMs), specifically because how Streaks are handled is one of the primary - and more contentious - differentiators between the functioning of Guardian ECM and the functioning of Angel ECM.

Specifically:
  • "Guardian ECMs, in any strength do not impact Streaks, Boosted C3, Bloodhound, etc." (BattleTech Freelance Developer forum post)
  • "Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model." (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)
In other words, Guardian does not affect the proper functioning of the Streak system, while Angel does.

Though, that raises the question of, "what is the 'proper functioning' of the Streak system?"
To which the answer is:
  • "A player attempting to lock a Streak missile on target must make a standard to-hit roll during the Weapon Attack Phase as if he were firing a standard SRM. If successful, the player immediately fires his Streak SRM at the locked-on target. All Streak missiles automatically hit (no roll on the Cluster Hits Table is required), and the player rolls as normal to determine the hit locations. If the roll fails, the player does not achieve a lock and so does not fire the SRMs or build up any heat. The player must roll for a targeting lock each turn, even if he achieved a lock in the previous turn. The player must make a separate to-hit roll for each individual Streak system being fired." (Total Warfare, pg. 138)
  • "...while a Streak SRM launcher applies the damage from each missile to a separate location, it does not apply its damage using the Cluster Hits Table; if the to-hit roll succeeds, all the missiles strike the target." (Total Warfare, pg. 116)
  • "Developed as a means of conserving ammunition, the Streak system literally refuses to fire unless all of the launcher’s tubes simultaneously achieve a “hard lock” on their target." (TechManual, pg. 230)
In other words, the Streak system is not designed for guidance (as many mistakenly believe), but for ammo efficiency and conservation; under normal operations, if the Streak system cannot guarantee that every single one of its missiles will actually strike the target, the whole launcher will not fire at all.

Guardian doesn't stop the Streak system from doing what it was designed to do (avoid firing when the BattleMech's targeting system does not have a hard lock, in order to conserve ammunition), but Guardian can and does (as explained in the posts I had linked previously) interfere with the BattleMech's ability to get said lock in the first place (provided, of course, that one is implementing the advanced and double-blind rules).
And, obviously, if Guardian can prevent the lock from occurring and the Streaks won't fire at all without the lock, then it can be said that Guardian can technically prevent Streaks from firing... and that the Streak system allows this because it is still doing what it was designed to do (that is, avoid firing unless there is a solid lock).

By contrast, Angel actually causes the Streak system to malfunction in such a way that it will allow itself to fire in the absence of a solid lock, which dramatically increases the likelihood that at least some of the missiles will completely miss the target; such misses would be wasted shots, which is the one thing the Streak system was specifically and explicitly designed to avoid.

As such, there is a certain irony in the quoted proposal and those in the same vein (which are surprisingly common and popular): it is effectively asking the MWO rendition of ECM, which is supposed to be based on the Guardian ECM Suite, to take on one of the key aspects of the Angel ECM Suite, in spite of so many posts (in a number of cases, the same post and/or posters) condemning MWO's rendition of ECM for "acting like Angel", "combining Angel and Guardian", and so on and so forth.

Your thoughts?

#53 Skyfaller

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostArcticfox9, on 15 January 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Since there are numerous threads regarding ECM on this site that have both high and low quality feedback, I have created a simple poll to try to see how the player base is divided on this topic.

The first option of the poll would require PGI to do a heavy investigation of the forums to try to develop an ECM solution that suits the community that plays MWO. This would be a time consuming implementation for research alone but may come up with a fit that best suits the majority of players that have a strong interest in the game.

The second option of the poll would have ECM operate as close to the Guardian ECM description as noted on Sarna.net and/or Table Top. While this might be the best starting place for ECM, it may not be the best solution since we all know that MWO and Table Top could never be properly compared in terms of gameplay.

The third option would have no changes to the current implementation of ECM. A majority poll on this option would indicate that ECM is fine and that there is a strong vocal minority against ECM at present.

The fourth option is self-explanatory,

*Topic Modified to allow feedback posts.


ECM on itself is not an issue. Its the combination of ECM and the netcode that makes light mechs idiotically overpowered and impossible to kill that is an issue.

All they need to do is remove the no-lock bubble effect of the ECM and voila! Lights become once again endangered by mechs carrying SSRM's : The ONLY weapon that is not affected by the netcode issue.

#54 Arcticfox9

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:46 PM

Guys - Rather than creating another ECM rant topic, vote in the poll. If you wish to comment, please share how you voted and why.

So far the results are interesting. Most people seem to want to reset to the common ground of the published rules. As for the rule set itself, the superceding rule set should be applied since it takes into account roughly 25 years of gameplay. And likely years of debate about what is fair and what is not.

#55 Fooooo

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:57 PM

I'm generally against following exact TT rule's for balance reasons.

However this is a time where the role is reversed and following TT/BT to the letter imo would make it more balanced....at least as a starting point anyway.

#56 Long Draw

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:13 PM

First link goes to Guardian ECM description from sarna. Second goes to Angel ECM description from sarna. Both are cropped screen images.

https://docs.google....FFET2JBTWc/edit
https://docs.google....0FOWjM0U1k/edit

#57 TheSteelRhino

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

It's way overpowerful right now. I know ppl complained about ams when it came in, but it only shoots down a few missiles and really only protects a limited area...

ECM protects, wraps in a blankie, reads you a story, and walks down the street safely..

Ok..seriously, should have left it like tabletop.

#58 M4rtyr

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostWolf of Fenrir, on 15 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

ECM is fine. The only "problem" with it is it makes going into a pug by yourself with a LRM boat a crap shoot. IT works great right now and keeps the game from descending into a LRM camp fest (Living Legends, I'm looking at you). Seriously this game will die a painful death if you don't give the players a way to attempt to counter LRM boats.


The counter to LRM boats is to lower their damage back to base, use the maps which have plenty of cover and get in close on them. and LRM boat is nothing but scrap when you are within 300m.

Anyway, my thoughts. I picked moving it too TT rules, but more as a way of saying tone it down slightly. I don't know that it affecting artemis (which is really the only system it effects that ever gets used) would be of any use. But if the range of its effect were cut in half -OR- the lock on time was just increased, both are likely the best fixes to make ECM useful without being broken.

As it is now it's not terrible itself but it does make LRM's pretty useless. The main issue at the moment is the combination of lagshield ECM and Streaks on light mechs. Streaks need a tweak that makes it so they aren't forever locked, and fixing the netcode then even if ECM isn't changed overall things will be better, but still ECM needs a tone down just to make LRM's viable. But like I said, LRM damage should still be dropped.

#59 CrashieJ

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:45 PM

I say take it out before **** gets worse. there are a lot of other features that have to added in before ECM can make its debut. Adding ECM and then tweaking everything around it (like PGI did) will **** up balance way down the road with ECM still being an endgame item.

#60 HammerForge

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:38 AM

I have been a backer of ECM, but even I must admit that it needs to be tweaked. Saying it should be hit with the NERF gun is too much in my opinion though, too many things don't work like TT, so to say it should only work like TT as an invalid argument if you ask me. I believe that the netcode issues, hitboxes, and knockdowns solve many of the problems, but even at that point, ECM may still be too strong and need to be TWEAKED down, but not NERFed.





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