153 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

People don't seem to understand, that in 8 mans you are on voice coms with your team mates, so you have just nullified ECM's biggest effect in lack of sight/targeting.

After that, it's just lock on missile protection, and if your not taking missiles....

[Rippthrough]

If I'm in cover from gauss and PPC shots, what the hell are LRM's gonna do.

Anyone who brings LRM's to anything bar a pug is a liability unless you have a team full of them and your co-ordination and anticipation is faultless.

Edited by Rippthrough, 18 January 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Don't worry, next patch they are going to introduce ADD (Area Denial Defense), that will make all short range weapons unusable and obsolete, as well as reverse lagshield technology so instead of having to shoot ahead of fast, high-latency mechs, players will have to shoot behind slow, low-ping mechs.

It will be a game changer, for sure, which is why the new technology will be limited to the CPLT-A1, CPLT-K2, STK-3F, and for the first time ever, a hero mech the CFT-IM. All part of the master plan to keep the game in perfect imbalance.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 18 January 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Kylere]

I love that people in 8 mans think they are tiered when the majority of players do not bother with them!

[CDLord HHGD]

ICEFANG13, on 17 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Per what PGI says. ECM isn't extremely prevalent in 8 mans.

I call BS on that. When we do 8 mans, we notice a prevalence of ECM AT LEAST half the opposing forces and usually more. We've been forced to conform to compete. I miss my Hunch .

[Vassago Rain]

cdlord, on 18 January 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

I call BS on that. When we do 8 mans, we notice a prevalence of ECM AT LEAST half the opposing forces and usually more. We've been forced to conform to compete. I miss my Hunch .

We bring two ECM mechs.

[Kylere]

Rippthrough, on 18 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Anyone who brings LRM's to anything bar a pug is a liability unless you have a team full of them and your co-ordination and anticipation is faultless.

Use of LRM's is an effective force multiplier and having one boat in each grpoup (not the moronic 6LRM boats) but an Cat-C1 with Artemis and 2 LRM20's, a Tag on autofire, and three med lasers as a backup is never a joke.

[G4M3R]

LRMs aren't used much because when you fire LRMs. The other team know where at least one mech is. Not to mention direct fire is far more effective.

[Lukoi Banacek]

On a related note, I also disagree with the premise that ECM isn't common in 8mans anymore. While the communications over TS/Mumble certainly are the biggest component in team play the ECM still has a role....we routinely see 3-4 ECM on the opponent side (and we typically take 3-4) and I don't think I've ever run into an 8man without them....and I can't remember ever losing to an 8man that didn't have at least 2.

edit: again, it's all anecdotal. These comparisons mean little to nothing because PGI undoubtedly can mine the stats from the game played and see how many actual ECM are ingame while we can only guess and give our personal takes on the issue.

Edited by Lukoi, 18 January 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[Jacmac]

Kylere, on 18 January 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

I love that people in 8 mans think they are tiered when the majority of players do not bother with them!

You may not think they are "tiered", but nobody can deny that the game is different in an 8-man. The majority of players don't bother with them because the reward system is screwed up and rewards players for fast and easy 4-man slop play as much as the trouble of creating and launching 8-mans. 8-mans are a pain to keep together, slower games, and a much different experience.

I expect PGI to create at least 3 tiers in the near term:

Solo only
4-mans+mixed
8-mans

Eventually we're supposed to see 12-mans, although I really wouldn't want to play 12v12 on the current maps, they are just too small.

[Jacmac]

Kylere, on 18 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Use of LRM's is an effective force multiplier and having one boat in each grpoup (not the moronic 6LRM boats) but an Cat-C1 with Artemis and 2 LRM20's, a Tag on autofire, and three med lasers as a backup is never a joke.

I've seen something like this occasionally in 8-mans, but they are never effective. Just a waste of weapons tonnage. Direct short-range fire is king.

Vassago Rain, on 18 January 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

We did that already. Crushing victory.

Where is the video? If there is none, well....

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Vassago Rain, on 18 January 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

We bring two ECM mechs.

And that's only because you really have no alternative in light mech selection i presume.

Kylere, on 18 January 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

I love that people in 8 mans think they are tiered when the majority of players do not bother with them!

Most people don't play 8 mans for two reasons.

1) they are not good enough/have a group good enough.

2) they lack the ability to socially interact with anything but an atlas.

Edited by DV McKenna, 18 January 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[Leimrey]

Jacmac, on 18 January 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Where is the video? If there is none, well....

I'm not Vass and he wasn't present in this match, but Kong fought Panzerbunny and his crew yesterday with no ECM at all (or I may be mistaken and we had 1 DDC, but I'm not sure, you better ask Panzerbunny himself how much ECM we had that match, lol) on Caustic Valley and defeated their LRM heavy team with direct fire weapons only. Granted, we had no lights, but all of our assaults were stalkers and one awesome, while they had several DDCs or other Atlases (can't remember for sure). We, however had 2 mediums and some heavies, so we weren't an "all assault team" and the tonnages between teams were pretty much equal, as far as I can remember.
Sorry, Panzerbunny, I don't wish to brag or anything, but I really want to give people some examples how a team with little to no ECM can win in 8mans.

Edited by Leimrey, 18 January 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[bug3at3r]

A lot of you guys have entirely different experiences with 8 mans. I see LOTS of PPC/Gauss campfests. Maybe it's a regional thing, what times do you guys play? Any brawlers I see are hybrids (Gauss/PPC with SRM) and missiles are far and few between.

[Jacmac]

Leimrey, on 18 January 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I'm not Vass and he wasn't present in this match, but Kong fought Panzerbunny and his crew yesterday with no ECM at all (or I may be mistaken and we had 1 DDC, but I'm not sure, you better ask Panzerbunny himself how much ECM we had that match, lol) on Caustic Valley and defeated their LRM heavy team with direct fire weapons only. Granted, we had no lights, but all of our assaults were stalkers and one awesome, while they had several DDCs or other Atlases (can't remember for sure). We, however had 2 mediums and some heavies, so we weren't an "all assault team" and the tonnages between teams were pretty much equal, as far as I can remember.
Sorry, Panzerbunny, I don't wish to brag or anything, but I really want to give people some examples how a team with little to no ECM can win in 8mans.

Look, I'm not going to say it can't be done. All I'm saying is that if you regularly go into 8-mans with no ECM, you are going to get your @$$ handed to you regularly. There will always be some odd ball matches out there where crazy things happen, but you cannot and will not consistently win with no ECM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Jacmac, on 18 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Look, I'm not going to say it can't be done. All I'm saying is that if you regularly go into 8-mans with no ECM, you are going to get your @$$ handed to you regularly. There will always be some odd ball matches out there where crazy things happen, but you cannot and will not consistently win with no ECM.

Not quite true, and entirely skill related, and most of the teams in the 8 man que are quite bad, usually due to their over reliance on ECM capable mechs.

[Leimrey]

Jacmac, on 18 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Look, I'm not going to say it can't be done. All I'm saying is that if you regularly go into 8-mans with no ECM, you are going to get your @$$ handed to you regularly. There will always be some odd ball matches out there where crazy things happen, but you cannot and will not consistently win with no ECM.

Kong is pretty much always understaffed when it comes to ECM mechs in 8mans, because we rarely field lights and many of our members prefer Stalkers and Awesomes to DDCs and Centurions to Cicadas, yet we do pretty well. Sure, we don't win 100% of our matches, but we win much more than we lose. That has to count for something, right? Again, ECM is only a problem when you rely on LRMs and Streaks, it's not really a game changer against experienced players with direct fire weapons and voice communication.

[Kylere]

DV McKenna, on 18 January 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Most people don't play 8 mans for two reasons.

1) they are not good enough/have a group good enough.

2) they lack the ability to socially interact with anything but an atlas.

Other more valid reasons:
1. They are tired of hearing little boys who are deeply in denial about their sexuality constantly call things, "***" or call people, "****"
2. They have played a million games in a million guilds/clans/etc and are sick of tin martinette civilians with delusions of grandeur trying to sound military.
3. They have familes and would be embarassed if anyone heard what the typical Vent/TS user regards as acceptable or English.
4. They like a real challenge rather than lame padding of stats
5. They want to play a game without having to deal with a bunch of kiddies
6. They want to just be able to log in, enjoy 2-3 matches because they have lives that are demanding of their time

Basically, anyone who assumes your two reasons are the majority is an arse.

Edited by Kylere, 18 January 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Kylere, on 18 January 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Other more valid reasons:
1. They are tired of hearing little boys who are deeply in denial about their sexuality constantly call things, "***" or call people, "****"
2. They have played a million games in a million guilds/clans/etc and are sick of tin martinette civilians with delusions of grandeur trying to sound military.
3. They have familes and would be embarassed if anyone heard what the typical Vent/TS user regards as acceptable or English.
4. They like a real challenge rather than lame padding of stats
5. They want to play a game without having to deal with a bunch of kiddies
6. They want to just be able to log in, enjoy 2-3 matches because they have lives that are demanding of their time

Basically, anyone who assumes your two reasons are the majority is an arse.

See socially lacking.

Most of your points would apply to my old self too, that's why picking the right team is important and that is your choice.

Number 2 if your actually military or ex mil and hence the annoyance factor for you there is actually a unit comprised of serving and ex military i beleive
Number 3 is certainly solved by what are called headphones.
Number 4 is fantasy, there is no challenge in pug grouping just meat grinding.
Number 5 see the point of picking the right kid free team.
Number 6 well again this would come back to the opening point and number 5 - right team right people. Im sure there are social based teams with no commitment to time spent gaming.

Edited by DV McKenna, 18 January 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

FWLM groups I have run with are still faring well enough using a slightly wider variety of builds, and favoring mid to long range.

In typical Marik fashion, everyone tends to load up on Large and Medium Lasers