153 replies to this topic

[Jacmac]

Leimrey, on 18 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Again, ECM is only a problem when you rely on LRMs and Streaks, it's not really a game changer against experienced players with direct fire weapons and voice communication.

If you run with no ECM at all, you will be the victims of LRMs and Streaks, mainly Streaks. 3 Raven-2Ls can have a field day with a no ECM team. The only difficulty would be that all of your mechs are so big since you say you don't run any scouts. I can't speak for all teams, but a lot that I've played on and against would love to run into a no-ECM team.

[Leimrey]

Correction on my earlier statement: we had one ECM Cicada for some reason in that match and no Atlases. It's hard to remember the loadouts for our matches because everyone brings whatever they feel like and switch constantly.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Leimrey, on 18 January 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Correction on my earlier statement: we had one ECM Cicada for some reason in that match and no Atlases. It's hard to remember the loadouts for our matches because everyone brings whatever they feel like and switch constantly.

I like that last bit.....everyone brings what they like. Sounds like more fun.

[ICEFANG13]

I don't play 8 mans because I like to play light, and all other non-3L or maybe 2D lights are worthless. I've decided to master my Raven-3L, but I don't really enjoy it yet.

[Kylere]

DV McKenna, on 18 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

See socially lacking.

Most of your points would apply to my old self too, that's why picking the right team is important and that is your choice.

Number 2 if your actually military or ex mil and hence the annoyance factor for you there is actually a unit comprised of serving and ex military i beleive
Number 3 is certainly solved by what are called headphones.
Number 4 is fantasy, there is no challenge in pug grouping just meat grinding.
Number 5 see the point of picking the right kid free team.
Number 6 well again this would come back to the opening point and number 5 - right team right people. Im sure there are social based teams with no commitment to time spent gaming.

I see what you are implying, but the fact is that I hopped onto the various TS options months ago, and they were all dominated by kiddies. I play occasionally with some local friends, but we do not even need voice to win. Just having two people who are not idiots in one PUG completely skews the balance in your favor.

I notice you ignored point 1
2. Yeah, umm, being ex-military you quicky realize the truth about most of them.
3. I don't know about you, but I can hear what people have on their headphones.
4. You and I are going to have to disagree on this, or you are one of the 5% that actually looks for a challenge and do not realize that most groups are just people stat padding.
5. Good luck finding one, the few that do not allow kiddies tend to have fat old women who think they should be hitting on everyone.
6. I could always pull in old gamers from prior guilds, and have suckered a few into the game (we should get referral bonuses for pimping out our friends) but honestly most of them are like me. They came here and read the forums and decided to not play. Unless they are BT junkies like me they do not want to wait for this to stop being a FPS and become an MMO.

PGI needs to implement voice internally and then take action to ban offensive people.

[Ken Fury]

Well we ran with a [REDACTED] setup a whole night in 8mans and won all Games, we didn't use a single ECM Mech. We also think that long range combat is [REDACTED].

Also the current goon stance on long range setups is that [REDACTED] are the way to go.

This should give enough information, while not breaking OPSEC.

We [REDACTED] you for your time.

[Leimrey]

Jacmac, on 18 January 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

If you run with no ECM at all, you will be the victims of LRMs and Streaks, mainly Streaks. 3 Raven-2Ls can have a field day with a no ECM team. The only difficulty would be that all of your mechs are so big since you say you don't run any scouts. I can't speak for all teams, but a lot that I've played on and against would love to run into a no-ECM team.

I understand what you are saying and I have definitely experienced several matches were a single Raven would finish off our remaining battered 2-3 mechs when we've destroyed all of the heavy, medium and assault mechs on the enemy team, but we're having less and less problems with obliterating lights with SRMs and ac20s/gauss/PPCs for some reason now, so we don't really need to rely on ECM+streak combo to swat them in the majority of cases (mostly because we don't even run these weapons in the first place). And no, streaks aren't that good compared to SRMs, if the player can actually aim the SRMs well and I consider them wasted tonnage on anything that isn't a ECM light (even non ECM lights are better off with regular SRMs for a harder punch, IMO). Even the dreaded SSRM boating A1 catapult was OP because of its ability to fire with perfect accuracy while jump jetting (which made it next to impossible to hit reliably while it was in the air) and the smoke+screen shaking combination that obscured your vision, NOT because of supposedly high SSRM damage.

LRMs, on the other hand, require a VERY experienced and well coordinated team to be used well, because an experienced enemy team can abuse cover while closing in, even without ECM (experienced LRM teams always bring a shitload of TAG, though). Most of us have been playing direct fire builds even before ECM was introduced and LRMs got their damage nerf and did very well.

Edited by Leimrey, 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[TheMagician]

Jacmac, on 17 January 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

How do you qualify that? Have you won an 8-man match long range recently? I would not say there are no long range shot traded, but most of the team I've faced have tried to specifically force a short range brawl. Caustic is the only map where you can not really force it all of the time because there is so much room. On this map, we find many teams try to get away with a base rush if they can't force a short range brawl.

Very often win when going long range, no matter the map.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Kylere, on 18 January 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

I notice you ignored point 1
2. Yeah, umm, being ex-military you quicky realize the truth about most of them.
3. I don't know about you, but I can hear what people have on their headphones.
4. You and I are going to have to disagree on this, or you are one of the 5% that actually looks for a challenge and do not realize that most groups are just people stat padding.
5. Good luck finding one, the few that do not allow kiddies tend to have fat old women who think they should be hitting on everyone.
6. I could always pull in old gamers from prior guilds, and have suckered a few into the game (we should get referral bonuses for pimping out our friends) but honestly most of them are like me. They came here and read the forums and decided to not play. Unless they are BT junkies like me they do not want to wait for this to stop being a FPS and become an MMO.

Yea i missed number 1, honestly never encounter that as an issue our coms are pretty obscene at times but usually towards each other in jest.

3) no, i usually have my computer volume for TS maxed but then the headphones turned down, i play in the living room of my house, so i keep it that way so i can hear TS and the TV..the the Mrs at least a little bit.

4) I play to win, my team plays to win - We play to compete and to do that you have to play the best hence our participation in RHOD tournament, playing for fun is one of the things that drive me up the wall .

5) They are out there, maybe in short supply but they are, i don't think we have anyone under 20 and we have no women at all...we do hear Dustmuffins hot lady saying "Good Boy" in the back ground occasionally however.

6) you'll be waiting along time for it to become an MMO, because that is not really in the game design, it'll always be an FPS but later with the addition of Clan Wars (2020?) it will hopefully become a little more in depth.

[slayerkdm]

DV McKenna, on 18 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

See socially lacking.

Most of your points would apply to my old self too, that's why picking the right team is important and that is your choice.

Number 2 if your actually military or ex mil and hence the annoyance factor for you there is actually a unit comprised of serving and ex military i beleive
Number 3 is certainly solved by what are called headphones.
Number 4 is fantasy, there is no challenge in pug grouping just meat grinding.
Number 5 see the point of picking the right kid free team.
Number 6 well again this would come back to the opening point and number 5 - right team right people. Im sure there are social based teams with no commitment to time spent gaming.

I agree with Kylere, your statements make you sound like the socially awkward one. I dont think you really understand what the majority of the community on these games is. Im not saying you are not good at social interaction, but if you read your original two reasons why people dont play 8 man, you come off as a very young person, who views himself as an elite player, and that he is somehow better or above those who do not share his views, or theory on 8 man. Most of what you refer to as skill, is rather communication. Coordination overcomes most tactics.

Everyone plays for different reasons. Many of the people you look at as not "dedicating" the time needed to become "good" in your eyes, look at you as someone who spends entirely too much time pretending he is a stompy robot commander.

Neither camp is probably totally correct, but the tone of your posts, does not in general, endear you to most people, even though I find much of what you say, worth reading, when it does not involve your opinions on people.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

But i am a big stompy robot commander...

Im certainly not young, but elitist? definitely i hold myself and my team to a certain standard of ability it's also why we are highly selective on who we let in, and why compared to most teams here still very very small.

Anyone the crux of the answer, Long range is still very viable, but you have to be highly committed to perfecting a style of playing it, because it's not as simple as it was in MW games past.

Edited by DV McKenna, 18 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Kylere]

DV McKenna, on 18 January 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Anyone the crux of the answer, Long range is still very viable, but you have to be highly committed to perfecting a style of playing it, because it's not as simple as it was in MW games past.

DV McKenna,

You might be shocked at this, but I entirely agree about the long range game. Of course, I see ECM as a challenge, not as something to whine about, I found the H key my first match, and I understand cover.

[ReD3y3]

ECM is most effective in the light fights.

Why?

Becuase hit detectino is shoddy and team damage is very prevelant in these chaotic engagements.

Solution?

Streaks. Guaranteed damge on the enemy.

How do I gain the streak advantage in the light fight ?

out ECM them



Assault groups dont have to have an ECM D-DC.

Matter of fact more than one D-DC is a waste.

The RS,Stalkers can put out alot more damage than the D-DC can, and they should be taken over a D-DC if they drop contains more than 1 assault.

D-DC is great because it is a jack of all trades mech. It can be fitted to handle ANY situation. You only need one of these. The rest of your Assaults should be fitted to your teams play style. Brawling Stalkers? 5 large laser(ppc) Stalkers ? LRM stalkers? RS with nasty loadout?

Conclusion:
ECM affects the light fight more than any other part of the engagement.

[Jacmac]

ReD3y3, on 18 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Conclusion:
ECM affects the light fight more than any other part of the engagement.

I disagree with your conclusion, mainly because ECM superiority is extremely important in achieving fire superiority. If you achieve fire superiority, you win the fight. You can achieve fire superiority without ECM, but it is much more difficult. A team that employs ECM superiority will negate the use of Streaks and LRMs entirely, cause confusion in the enemy, and mask their location and disposition. More than one D-DC is not a waste of time. One D-DC is easy to counter. If your team has 6 ECMs and the other team has 2, the team with 2 might as well not have ECM at all.

TheMagician, on 18 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Very often win when going long range, no matter the map.

Where is the video?

[Jacmac]

Tank Boy Ken, on 18 January 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Well we ran with a [REDACTED] setup a whole night in 8mans and won all Games, we didn't use a single ECM Mech. We also think that long range combat is [REDACTED].

Also the current goon stance on long range setups is that [REDACTED] are the way to go.

This should give enough information, while not breaking OPSEC.

We [REDACTED] you for your time.

Seriously, there is no credibility here. You would say that you run with no ECM and all long range builds just on the off chance someone would convince their leadership to follow suit (then get your lulz because they had the audacity to actually believe you).

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Jacmac, on 18 January 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Seriously, there is no credibility here. You would say that you run with no ECM and all long range builds just on the off chance someone would convince their leadership to follow suit (then get your lulz because they had the audacity to actually believe you).

Yes multiple teams are telling you they play long range and it can work with and without ECM, to lul you into taking them yourselves and watch you fail

Like i said earlier, the average group can't do it.
The good group can.

Edited by DV McKenna, 18 January 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Jacmac]

DV McKenna, on 18 January 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Yes multiple teams are telling you they play long range and it can work with and without ECM,

Like i said earlier, the average group can't do it.
The good group can.

I never said it can't work, just that it isn't how the game is played anymore. The long range game is effectively dead. There will always be the occasional long range battle or one off, but these are the margins. At the top of the bell curve where 80% of the matches fall, it is a medium to short range battle. So should mechs be built and drop slots filled with the short-medium range game in mind and with the long range weapons being purely secondary or an afterthought? I've seen several people post here that they have one a long range game or just had one last night. Is that how 80% of your 8v8 matches play out? It sure isn't my experience in the last several weeks.

Edited by Jacmac, 18 January 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Hawkwings]

Here's a hint: most 8-man groups suck. What people run in 8-mans should not be taken as the pinnacle of competitive play.

Also, a good point was made about the current ECM situation being partially due to the difficulty of hitting light mechs. When the netcode improves and rubberbanding is decreased and hit detection is improved and knockdown is added back in, so that lights other than the 3L are viable, expect a shakeup in ECM meta.

[Kraven Kor]

Jacmac, on 18 January 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Seriously, there is no credibility here. You would say that you run with no ECM and all long range builds just on the off chance someone would convince their leadership to follow suit (then get your lulz because they had the audacity to actually believe you).

While I'm sure a few have gotten their "lulz" from us, again, no agenda here: Long range teams can in fact win in 8v8.

It is highly unlikely you will have an entire fight occur at long range, but we have had many matches where our mixed ranged setups served us well. Whittle them down as they approach and finish them off in the brawl.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Jacmac, on 18 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I never said it can't work, just that it isn't how the game is played anymore. The long range game is effectively dead. There will always be the occasional long range battle or one off, but these are the margins. At the top of the bell curve where 80% of the matches fall, it is a medium to short range battle. So should mechs be built and drop slots filled with the short-medium range game in mind and with the long range weapons being purely secondary or an afterthought? I've seen several people post here that they have one a long range game or just had one last night. Is that how 80% of your 8v8 matches play out? It sure isn't my experience in the last several weeks.

And what is your experience of the top end 8 v 8 matches?