777 replies to this topic

[MuKen]

While I agree with all the situations OP states, I just don't see most PUGs having that as their primary issue. I see a lot more situations where 1/3 or more of the team has thrown their lives away on stupid plays, to the point that if I had a slider that said "aggression/caution" that I could simultaneously apply to all the randoms on my team, I'd undoubtedly put it more toward the latter.

This goes freakin triple for the mentioned people who are "just starting to learn" who in my experience seem to have no sense of self-preservation nor awareness at all of damage they are taking whatsoever.

I've problem seen dozens of lights die in the first few minutes this week alone, and numerous of those argue back when criticized for it with stupid stuff like "I found the enemy team, I did my job" like losing a mech to locate a few enemies is a good trade or something.

Edited by MuKen, 31 October 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[Void Angel]

=) That would be more along the lines of this thread.

What you're seeing in new players will become what this thread is about, however. Brand new players dropped into the match to kill the enemy - so they're going to tend to go out and look for the enemy. They'll try to be careful, but they don't know the maps, the weapons, etc, yet - so they'll end up getting squashed a lot. If no one tells them otherwise, they may very well come reasonably to the conclusion that the way to survive long enough to learn the game is to hide and snipe, even in a Light. Once they start down the dark path, forever will it dominate their destiny...

The current state of Streaks isn't helping matters much. It's a straightforward problem: it's harder than it should be to kill lights (especially Spiders) with many weapons, so people gravitate toward streaks; since half the medium 'mechs in any given match can carry 3-5 Streak launchers, lights feel punished for playing their 'mech in its actual scouting role; this (and their advantages in hit detection) leads them to stop scouting an try for pure kills/damage. With light 'mechs acting like a bunch of really small Hunchbacks, everyone ends up having to be more cautious in general, since you're not likely to know where/what the enemy is - which feeds back into the problem of timidity and tactics.

Edited by Void Angel, 31 October 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

People push ahead alone, then get mad when no one follows them. Well let's say I agree it's time to push and join you. Guess what? 95% of the time we die glorious deaths in battle while our allies sit and watch.

I push for one of two reason. Either my team is pushing, or I am tired of playing Chess when the rest of my PUG is playing Checkers and decide to start something (and by team I mean pre-made on TS).

If I am pugging, you will usually find me in my Raven 3L with a ERLL and 2 MPL. If we have a Big Ball of Doom meeting another BBoD then I snipe from the edges, else I run around looking for Lights to shoot up and/or play Cap Warrior. When I have a team, then I work on other mechs etc.

[Suzano]

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

This is for all the Atlas missile boats who don't realize that 60LRMS 40LRMS and two medium lasers (not a random example) is not a worthwhile Atlas build. This is for all the light 'mechs who refuse to poke their noses over Coward's Ridge in the Frozen City. This is for all the snipers who refuse to focus fire because that would require them to leave cover and assume the risk of actually taking damage.

This is for everyone who's just starting out to learn a role or the game itself - and doesn't know any better than to be guided by their fear.

no need to cry.
the point is, that the users will try to get the best possible config for their mechs. The fact is that pgi has implemented big disadvantages for assault mechs, especially the atlas. the LRM-role is one of the remaining roles he can do effective.

As long as pgi is refusing for implementing weapon slots and balancing you will have to accept that a lot of mechs can`t do the role they designed for.

[Void Angel]

Well, you begin by poisoning the well - nothing like a good insult to support a logical opinion, right? And then you claim that the Atlas has "big disadvantages" and that an underpowered weapon system it cannot mount effectively is one of its "remaining" roles. Add in a parting shot about a design feature you dislike, and BAM! Completely ineffective criticism.

In case anyone wasn't clear, the Atlas does poorly in a hill-humping sniper war because of its low-slung weapon systems. It has always had this limitation. It's also only been viable as a missile boat when LRMs used to be scary-overpowered; and another 'mech better suited could still do it better. The Atlas is also a large, slow target, and its torso weapons don't track very high. In fact, the only thing the Atlas does really well is direct combat in a push; but it does it very, very well. All in all, an Atlas is a frightening opponent when used properly - and you can do so in a PuG environment, if you take the time to learn.

Not everyone is going to like every variant of every 'mech - it's a subjective judgement based on how the 'mechs interact with how you want to play. But if a player thinks that the Atlas, much less the entire assault class, is underpowered, I can only recommend that they spend more time exploring that weight class - or simply accept that their piloting skills are inadequate when it comes to Assaults and move on.

[YueFei]

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Actually, that is my point.

If the general climate is one of timidity, then you must factor that into your risk assessment. For example if a greater number than 50% of pushes fail due to timidity or whatever, then it's usually more costly than beneficial.

Well, I don't advocate blindly digging yourself deep into an engagement, but I see too many teammates who refuse to even peek over a hill or around a corner at the same time that a teammate is doing so. I have a friend who I've seen just sit there staring at the hill while teammates check a corner. There'll be lots of gunfire and he could have easily stepped around the corner too and taken a shot safely, but he doesn't move and the opportunity passes. That's the kind of timidity that I don't like.

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Well of course, you won't be top player on your team without being super aggressive. But you can't do that if you are dead.

Besides cherry picking scenarios, there are a million ways things can play out. The question is, is the reason for this topic because more pushes fail due to timidity than not. If they do you should factor that in to the odds, and capitalize on the enemy making failed pushes and being timid.

I mean if it's such a thing and a common experience, then in PUGs it's imo better to use the way the games usually play out to your advantage rather than try to get people to play differently. I can't even imagine the tiny fraction of the people in PUG matches that would have read this topic anyway.

Yes, you are right, we do zero DPS when we're dead. And I have seen recklessness get people killed also. But usually that's the kind of recklessess where people charge directly into the enemy. And with every step they take they put themselves into the line-of-sight of more enemies.

But in general I've found myself on winning PUG teams where the players weren't afraid of a fight. But they were also smart enough to not dig themselves into a fire pocket and die alone. Players would move together, and strike together.

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Well yeah. While there are strong positions on every map that hold innate advantages, and those are usually camped and are really hard to assault without high risk.

If the battle happens elsewhere, camping even those areas are useless. Strong positions are reactionary and fluid, not entirely static. Few exceptions I can think of, like holding back to prevent base caps on big maps like alpine.

Very well said. I suppose strategically, being "timid" is a good thing. But on a tactical level, it's better to be bold. If you're gonna exchange fire with the enemy, get as many mechs and as many guns into the fight as you can. Maybe it turns out later that you picked the wrong fight. =P But that's more of a strategic error.

Xmasterspy, on 23 October 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

LOL I just made a post called "Chasing lights". I made the same referance about people not pushing the bridge in AV! It drove me crazy that the rest of the team would not recognize or watch that when I would run past all the alliance people, they would all give chase to me and leave the bridge wide open for the rest of my team to follow behind a bit and take the gy/bridge.

http://mwomercs.com/...chasing-lights/

I played an Orc Warrior. It helped to tell the whole team ahead of time that I was gonna pop everything. Shield Wall, health potion, damage absorb trinket, Intimidating Shout, and when I get close enough to the guards I'll drop Challenging Shout to keep them on me instead of going after any soul brave enough to toss me a heal. =P

If my team didn't follow me it was a huge waste, considering I can only do that once every half an hour.

[Cerberias]

Sorry void, this guide is full of fail - its the people that charge out on their own that lose games, not the people paying respect to their limited armor, doing unreciprocated damage and usually winning the game for you.

[Deathz Jester]

Cerberias, on 04 November 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Sorry void, this guide is full of fail - its the people that charge out on their own that lose games, not the people paying respect to their limited armor, doing unreciprocated damage and usually winning the game for you.

So I take it you're offended at the idea of doing something other than holding down the LRM group key? or Mashing W & A?

[Void Angel]

Cerberias, on 04 November 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Sorry void, this guide is full of fail - its the people that charge out on their own that lose games, not the people paying respect to their limited armor, doing unreciprocated damage and usually winning the game for you.

If you have any reasons for holding this erroneous belief, you should give them. Otherwise, your refusal to deal with your opponent's reasoning has discredited your opinion before you've even begun.

[Cerberias]

Upon reflection I apologise, I just think a guide promoting positional warfare would be more effectual in the long-term.

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This is for all the snipers who refuse to focus fire because that would require them to leave cover and assume the risk of actually taking damage.

You dont need to focus fire if you have positional advantage, as the enemy will not be able to focus fire either, infact it's generally the people that push who get focus fired since they move themselves into a position to be crossfired by the defending team.

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The guys milling around Coward's Ridge (the ridgeline halfway across Frozen City that contains the dropship wreck) don't want to be the "first one over" and die - not simply because it looks bad on the scoreboard and ends the match for them, but because dying without effect harms the team.

I'm not sure why you would want to push past ridgeline on Frozen City as it offers incredible cover, vantage points and fire lines - to a good player. It is also incredibly hard to encircle against a decent team with intel. If you're holding the ridge, they're holding the buildings and your team loses - your fire support needs to play better. You can draw fire lines through the pocket and into their section of the city - so no matter which way the enemy pushes from they should have taken serious damage before they have moved over - once again assuming decent players here.

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This is for all the Atlas missile boats who don't realize that 60LRMS 40LRMS and two medium lasers (not a random example) is not a worthwhile Atlas build

They shouldn't be in an Atlas in the first place - it's not a good pug mech because it offers little in the way of fire support and is heavily reliant upon teamwork to have any form of impact on the game. I still cant understand why ANYONE thinks the Atlas is a decent mech - the only thing it does reasonably well is brawl, and even then is at a disadvantage due to bad hardpoint locations, a large skull 'hit me' CT which can be hit even while torso twisting, and a complete lack of JJ's to help spread damage and even avoid damage.

A lot of your points are based upon people camping in bad positions - i.e. the normal 'pug' positions, which are incredibly easy to encircle and destroy - they are also based upon the assumption that the team is camped in the same position - another bad mistake of any team. 'Camping' is a legitimate strategy, and when well played is more effective than any charge - but requires prethought, good positioning and the right mechs for the job.

I guess if you're only talking about pugs with no brains you'd be correct - and maybe youre right maybe they have no brains - a large portion of them seem to run into the same position game after game without regarding any impacts of their poor positioning and 'blob' mentality. I personally would prefer to see people keep up with a decent amount of 'timidity' but instead of rushing to {Scrap} positions i'd prefer if they thought about what they were doing and took up 'non-standard' positions i.e. ones that are actually good, cover flanks, provide good cover etc...

My problem is that 'pushing' quite often gives up both positional and cover advantage, and often a push is orchestrated as a blob - making it incredibly easy to catch the team in a crossfire.

Hey, maybe I expect too much from both my team and the enemy team - I base my strategies around the other team not being {Scrap}.. and a team that pushes against a team in defendable positions will (should) lose 9/10 times. Being agressive in this game is fine, but only in a perfect circumstance - I just worry more pugs will take your advice and go into the enemy team thinking they're 'helping' when really, armor doesn't regen, and if they go down, then the enemy team has a massive advantage - and they'd be better off hiding out behind the fire support and counter-pushing.

Edited by Cerberias, 04 November 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Void Angel]

Hey, don't worry about it - it's always hard to express emotion properly in print anyway. Now, let's see...

As for assumptions, you're making some of your own - and reading a bit more into my estimation of the team than you probably ought to do. I don't assume PuGs are stupid, or that they are smart - I assume that they are uncoordinated. Actually, it's worse than that; they're conflictingly cooridinated. PGI released demographic stats a while back that showed a little over half of all players drop with some kind of a group. It may be a single buddy, or it may be a 4-man, but there's typically going to be two to three premade groups stuck in with your actual solo players - and when you've got a premade on voice coms, they're often going to ignore the rest of the team and do whatever. It is this lack of coordination that precludes the kind of effective action needed to execute complex maneuvers. Your team is typically going to be slow to respond to any situation which doesn't occur in their direct field of view, which in turn makes concerted action by the enemy team more effective. In more organized play, different tactics are used - but organized teams always use voice coms.


A lot of my time after the initial post has been spent debating the merits of the push, often because people who like sniping felt that I was telling them not to do it. This is simply untrue; I tell people with long-range builds to use them intelligently, and not get tactical tunnel-vision to the point that they'll refuse to adjust to the rest of the team. However, because of the lack of command and control inherent in PuG play, it's often dangerous to completely stop and camp somewhere. Your teammates get drawn in to their own small part of the battlefield: they're in a PPC duel with that guy over there; they're poptarting from this piece of cover; or they're waiting for some poor fool to show himself through this gap. They're all doing different things, none of which may be bad - but because of that they're all going to jump different directions when the enemy does something that requires a response. A group of players who are maneuvering, however, are moving in a certain direction, looking for contact with the enemy. They're looking the same way and doing roughly the same things, so the chance to take concerted action is greater. This is why, while I do not advocate blind agression, or charge-every-match gameplay, I do still hold that a concerted push by whatever brawlers you may have, backed up by your fire support mechs, is a better tactic for PuG play. When a camping team wins, it is most often because the enemy team scatters out and maximizes the advantage of the campers by behaving like an explosion at the cat factory - or simply camped themselves and lost too many sniper duels - a random matter of superior skill and good fortune. I'd rather not gamble on the skills of random strangers if I can help it.

This microguide was written to correct bad practices I was seeing every match - and still see today. People still (as you noted yourself) run to the same positions and stare in the same direction match after match. Half of the team can't even look at the enemy, the scouts are hiding behind the biggest assault (because Kintaros,) and some random newb is gonna get bored soon and rush by himself. What's needed isn't a treatise on how to camp better, but an attitude of focused, cooperative aggression. If you feel that camping is always a superior tactic, fine. We'll have to agree to disagree. All I ask is that everyone adjust their tactics to what their teammates are doing. If they're all sniping, sit back with your brawler and wait for your chance; if that brawler 4-man is going in, move to support them. At worst, you'll go out in a blaze of glory instead of a tortuous last stand - more likely you'll be able to take advantage of the attention they've drawn off to either pin them down for the brawlers or win the sniper war yourselves. But to do that, you have to be willing to take risks; you have to be willing to cooperate with the team, even when you disagree with their tactics. Camping doesn't win matches any more than rushing does - matches are won by teamwork. That's why this thread doesn't die: not because it's wrong, but because it's relevant.

Spoiler

PS: You're wrong about the Atlas. The main strength of the chassis isn't brawling - it's the ability to take a licking and keep on kicking. The Atlas excells at direct combat, which is usually, but not always, brawling. Now sure, you can theoretically hit the CT from the head model; but that's more difficult in practice because of the Atlas' height and huge shoulders,plus I've still got a LOT of armor in my CT; Even playing through LRMAgeddon and Poptart Hell as a direct-combat build of some kind, My Atlas still has one of the highest KDRs and Win/Loss ratios of any Battlemech I've played extensively; Even if I get trapped and smashed down, I usually still manage to make an Atlas-shaped hole in the enemy team. Playing an Atlas well is about balance. You're slow to advance, and slower to retreat, but you're still fast enough that people can't effectively run from you without turning around. So you play with your team (whatever they're doing) and force the enemy team into a Devil's bargain. On the push, they can pound on the toughest 'mech in the game, or they can ignore a 'mech whose weapon loadout weighs more than some entire Battlemechs - pick one, but it's the same 'mech. It's more difficult to fight on the defensive with an Atlas, but there's ways you can help there, too. If you want to exchange best practices and see why the Atlas works for me, send me a message on the forums - I'd rather not get too far afield with this thread; it's happened a lot already.

[Cerberias]

I'd simply rather people were discouraged from running short range mechs, were well versed in positional play and ran competitive mechs. I suppose that wont happen though - people seem to love their brawlers sadly. In competitive 12 mans in a 'heavier' tonnage game, it almost always is decided at long range - and since most pug games seem to be very much on the heavy side of things - I'd prefer that people were more educated in fire support, positional warfare, killzones etc.. I feel that this would lift the average skill of players more than advocating a brawl style of play.

This game sorely needs better competition in pugs - it's getting silly.

Edited by Cerberias, 05 November 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Void Angel]

Short ranged 'mechs are competitive - I've been playing my 12-mans mostly in my fracking Atlas. Nor am I advocating a brawling playstyle. I'm advocating an atmosphere of cooperation - given the limits on PuG communication. I don't care if you want to run a poptart, or a hill-humper, or a knife-range brawler. Aside from certain extreme examples (again, I swear I am not making it up: two medium lasers and two LRM20s on a fracking Atlas. He was literally armed like a 65-ton 'mech) I don't want to advocate any specific build - because The Meta can change, has changed, and will change. What won't change is the importance of teamwork and a willingness to take calculated risks.

Speaking of The Meta, any time we look at it, we have to remember the Thomas Theorem - because often, The Meta lags behind, or even ignores, what's actually advantageous in gameplay.

[Cerberias]

Which clan are you in btw? Just want to get a bearing on what competition you've seen.

[sneeking]

been timid isn't tactical any more than blind aggression but as a noob I've got to try it all and everything in between, just so I know for myself.

in two days iv died like 30 times and made 5 kills lol.

Never mind, I don't need the most polished service record in the ranks.

[Training Instructor]

Ghogiel, on 19 October 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Then we agree your concern is invalid.

What point are you trying to make, exactly?

Yes, you can wait out the timer in a normal pug match if you're up on kills. Does it ever happen? Nope. You're making a trivial argument based on a game mechanic that for all intents and purposes is never used in non-competitive tournaments, in a thread that is solely dedicated to talking about tactics in unorganized solo/casual four man matches.

I've played over 4,000 matches now, about 2500 of them being solo, maybe even more. I've never seen a pug team, or even four man teams in a pug match, advocate for waiting out the match timer once we were up 1-2 kills. That's a pretty big sample size.

Waiting out the match timer is something that only happens in competitive tournaments, not in casual play. Because casual players, by and large, care about the action first and the win second.

[Shade4x]

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Actually, that is my point.

If the general climate is one of timidity, then you must factor that into your risk assessment. For example if a greater number than 50% of pushes fail due to timidity or whatever, then it's usually more costly than beneficial.

So basicly what your saying is that if you "feel" everyone is going to be a *****, you will hold back, because it "could" be a failure, because if 50% (not sure where you got that number) of the charges fail it "could" be "costly". Am i getting this right? It sounds a lot like justifying cowardice in a video games based on bad assumptions of possible bad scenario's guaranteeing that the charge will fail. This is what void angel was talking about. What Percentage of the time does the team lose because an assault mech starts a charge, and everyone flakes out on him?

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Well of course, you won't be top player on your team without being super aggressive. But you can't do that if you are dead.

If your alive in the back unable to engage then you might as well be dead. 9.5/10 times the guy in the back does under 100 damage and gets 0 kills, the only exception to this are good LRM boats. Thats called a liability.

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Besides cherry picking scenarios, there are a million ways things can play out. The question is, is the reason for this topic because more pushes fail due to timidity than not. If they do you should factor that in to the odds, and capitalize on the enemy making failed pushes and being timid.

You sound like your trying to be smart and failing. Your basicly saying if pushes fail because people are timid, then don't push and wait for there team to fail a push. That strategy would only work if A) you have total control over your team and every agree's not to push. the enemy doesn't pull off a successful charge OR flank, and C) your enemys fails a charge where your in position to take advantage of it.

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I mean if it's such a thing and a common experience, then in PUGs it's imo better to use the way the games usually play out to your advantage rather than try to get people to play differently. I can't even imagine the tiny fraction of the people in PUG matches that would have read this topic anyway.

A 20 page topic thats been on the front page since july? Sounds to me like your REALLY bad at assumptions. This explains your strategy's and why no competent person would consider them valid.

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Well yeah. While there are strong positions on every map that hold innate advantages, and those are usually camped and are really hard to assault without high risk.

Which if sucessfully assulted almost ALWAYS wins the match. Your basicly trying to defend the "sit still" "tactic" in warfare. Well, i'll give you this, you are brave to go against the fundamental basics of military strategy since the 1700's. Man, we should totally still build castles!

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If the battle happens elsewhere, camping even those areas are useless. Strong positions are reactionary and fluid, not entirely static. Few exceptions I can think of, like holding back to prevent base caps on big maps like alpine.

what this? a glimmer of hope? besides contradicting your statement a few sentences ago, yes the first sentence is right. People can go around them. However all other statements are wrong. There is no fluidity in rigidly walking back and forth in a small area let alone standing their. The only reaction you have is to shoot stuff you have. Reactionary does not mean seeing someone and shooting them, it means changing your plans and/or routes based on what you, your team, and your enemy are doing. You cannot win matches standing around waiting for the enemy to attack. At some point you have to move tword the enemy. If you wait till it is safe, then your useless on the field. You basically let your team do all the heavy lifting, while you come in, steal a kill once in a while, and pretend your good, while your team fights outnumbered. I really hope you play locusts exclusively. What a waste of tonnage.

sneeking, on 06 November 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

been timid isn't tactical any more than blind aggression but as a noob I've got to try it all and everything in between, just so I know for myself.

in two days iv died like 30 times and made 5 kills lol.

Never mind, I don't need the most polished service record in the ranks.

Blind Aggressive is more tactical then being timid. Your at least tanking, giving your team a chance to land free shots. To turn it into a tactical advantage you simply need to be blindly aggressive where they are not looking.

[sneeking]

solo drops aren't realy teams but yea, I can learn more about customizing my controls and hard wiring my reactions by burning off these trial mech's repeatedly.

nothing to be gained been cautious at this point for me.

Edited by sneeking, 06 November 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[sneeking]

by doing so I gain exeriences, like speeding to the cap point jetting over obsticals in a lite only to arrive and discover another lite all AFK so I stand looking and waiting, guess what happens next.

you got it, my own people kill me !

brilliant

what did I do wrong ?

oh didnt I cap lol

[Void Angel]

Training Instructor, on 06 November 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

Shade4x, on 06 November 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

Guys, thanks for the support! But as annoying as bad arguments are, Ghogiel hasn't posted in this forum for a while. Let's not invite him back.