777 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

Wintersdark, on 15 February 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Scores are very, very misleading. They're a very poor indicator of performance and who did "their jobs" well or not.

Seconding this

There are many many many matches in my Locusts (let alone my other mechs) where my score is non-existent.

But if I can keep the enemies attention on me, and not my teammates?
IE:
Had one yesterday where 4 of the enemy spent ~4 minutes chasing me around the map, that is 4 minutes they were not helping THEIR teammates
4 minutes the 11 other people on my team were chewing up the 8 on theirs.

My score?
~20 damage and 3 assists
With frequently similar scores on my Atlas and Stalker, if only because I am focused more on surviving the barrage and leading the charge than on shooting people.
(And people say the upcoming arm-buffs to the Atlas are gonna be wasted. )

[Wintersdark]

Shar Wolf, on 15 February 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Seconding this

There are many many many matches in my Locusts (let alone my other mechs) where my score is non-existent.

But if I can keep the enemies attention on me, and not my teammates?
IE:
Had one yesterday where 4 of the enemy spent ~4 minutes chasing me around the map, that is 4 minutes they were not helping THEIR teammates
4 minutes the 11 other people on my team were chewing up the 8 on theirs.

My score?
~20 damage and 3 assists
With frequently similar scores on my Atlas and Stalker, if only because I am focused more on surviving the barrage and leading the charge than on shooting people.
(And people say the upcoming arm-buffs to the Atlas are gonna be wasted. <_<)

Re: arm buffs - they're not as good as torso buffs, but their awesome anyways. Played well, its not unusual to lose arms before torsos on an atlas, and anything allowing you to soak more damage means if nothing else more ammo expended and more heat generated on the opposing team, more damage not directed at your teammates.

But yeah.

As well, you could be doing everything right and still not accomplish much scoreboard wise. You can play well, but be outplayed by the opposing team. This is one (of the many) reasons that the "see how much my teammates sucked!" screenshots piss me off.

Those teammates with low scores could well have just been the ones the opposing team focused down first, while the one guy with the high damage done got it by hiding in the back and playing it "safe".

Guy in the back may or may not have done anything wrong, but those who died first didn't necessarily play poorly either. A good, hard, well executed push can roll a team fast, and once it starts rolling good play won't make a wit of difference on the scoreboard.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Wintersdark, on 15 February 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Re: arm buffs - they're not as good as torso buffs, but their awesome anyways. Played well, its not unusual to lose arms before torsos on an atlas, and anything allowing you to soak more damage means if nothing else more ammo expended and more heat generated on the opposing team, more damage not directed at your teammates.

But yeah.

Just try telling that to the haters though.
According to the feedback - the very fact that any ever though any arms should be buffed should be sent to a mental hospital on account of lacking the brain cells to remember to breath!
(I exaggerate... slightly)

[Wintersdark]

Shar Wolf, on 15 February 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Just try telling that to the haters though.
According to the feedback - the very fact that any ever though any arms should be buffed should be sent to a mental hospital on account of lacking the brain cells to remember to breath!
(I exaggerate... slightly)

people love to over react and not think things through. As well, it's definitely been my experience that people tend to come up with their own view of the game and anything that doesn't fit that narrow view is disregarded or outright attacked, rather than being considered and explored objectively.

[Nightmare1]

Had a match last night where the leader of a four man took group command on Tourmaline and promptly ordered everyone to assemble in D5 (in the open). As soon as we did, he ordered everyone to form a firing line towards E6 (Crystal Palace). A couple of us asked him if he was out of his mind since we would be vulnerable out in the open and at the base of the slope, not to mention arty bait. So, he ordered everyone to fall back to the borders near the downed Drop Ship and reform the firing line.

Of course, that's the moment Red Team hit us.

That premade got wiped out quick and we found ourselves down a whole lance. My Unit buddy and I collected the survivors and launched a sideways counterattack that crushed Red's flank and rolled down through them. In the end, we actually managed to save the match despite fighting from a bad position and in fewer numbers simply because our team rallied and charged.

Timidity is not a tactic. That premade practiced timidity and paid for it. The rest of us practiced aggression and turned the tables on Red Team, winning the day quite handily.

If I have the vid then I'll post it up. It was a pretty good fight; one of the better scraps I've had in a while here on MWO.

[Void Angel]

Kahadras, on 15 February 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

I always check post match scores to see how our assaults did. TBH though if we win then all is forgiven in terms of what people have done (or haven't done) during the game. The annoyance comes when your team loses and people haven't done their jobs.

Like some people have pointed out, it can be very difficult to gauge true performance based on match score. You can find correlations after the fact based on what you saw in match, but simply looking at the score doesn't tell everything.

[Tim East]

Nightmare1, on 15 February 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Timidity is not a tactic. That premade practiced timidity and paid for it. The rest of us practiced aggression and turned the tables on Red Team, winning the day quite handily.

Aggression is useful simply from a position of psychological advantage. When you get close to snipers and LRM-boats, a lot of them tend to panic and shoot everything they have regardless of its effective range. I seem to recall a speech given in one of the novels about mechwarriors who heat up faster than the mechs they drive. Way of the Clans, I believe.

Anyway, if you attack your foes closely and fiercely, it puts pressure on them to shoot back, and it's hard to watch every variable at once when you're right on top of their Atlas's Richard Cameron shooting them in the leg.

[Nightmare1]

Tim East, on 15 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

Aggression is useful simply from a position of psychological advantage. When you get close to snipers and LRM-boats, a lot of them tend to panic and shoot everything they have regardless of its effective range. I seem to recall a speech given in one of the novels about mechwarriors who heat up faster than the mechs they drive. Way of the Clans, I believe.

Anyway, if you attack your foes closely and fiercely, it puts pressure on them to shoot back, and it's hard to watch every variable at once when you're right on top of their Atlas's Richard Cameron shooting them in the leg.

Yep! It's one reason why bayonet charges are so feared, even today: http://militaryhisto...ayonet-charges/

The bottomline, is that when someone is coming at you hard enough and fast enough, you don't normally have time to think of those around you; just yourself. Pressing the enemy gives your forces the initiative and forces the defenders to conform to your battle. In short, attacking not only presents the defenders with a psychological challenge but also the attackers with battlefield control,

When you stop attacking, you cede that advantage to the defenders and allow yourself to play their game.

I found that vid I mentioned and am uploading it. In the meantime, here's a better one showing what aggression can do for you when coordinated:



Match score hit 3-8 in Red Team's favor at one point. It took some hard drivin' to win, but we pulled it off.

[Kahadras]

Quote

Like some people have pointed out, it can be very difficult to gauge true performance based on match score.

Yup but if there are a couple of assault mechs that have done less than 100 damage on my team then that's a fair reason as to why we might not have won that round IMHO. Being able to tank damage is fine but assaults need to be dealing some out in return. Now they might have been caught in a bad position or have been shot to pieces at range through no fault of their own but if your assaults have a bad game then the team has a bad game IMO.

Edited by Kahadras, 15 February 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Finally got that vid uploaded:



BerserX and I weren't able to assume command due to fighting on the front. Neither of us had the luxury of typing while engaged. However, the Pugs were smart enough to follow our lead and smash through the flank with us.

It was a good scrap, even if a clueless King Crab ally did leg me in the end.

[Void Angel]

Kahadras, on 15 February 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Yup but if there are a couple of assault mechs that have done less than 100 damage on my team then that's a fair reason as to why we might not have won that round IMHO. Being able to tank damage is fine but assaults need to be dealing some out in return. Now they might have been caught in a bad position or have been shot to pieces at range through no fault of their own but if your assaults have a bad game then the team has a bad game IMO.

It's possible, but consider: I've been that Assault. Sometimes, you just screw up, but a lot of the time it's coming around a corner with no intel (because all the lights are Firestarters who tag along in the back) and getting hammered by the enemy team - while your team takes one look at the incoming fire and wets themselves. Nothing annoys an Assault pilot more than wading to their death through an ocean of incoming fire, only to find out that their team used the opportunity to try and stand on top of each other behind a rock - and likely blame the Assault for the loss.

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 16 February 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

It's possible, but consider: I've been that Assault. Sometimes, you just screw up, but a lot of the time it's coming around a corner with no intel (because all the lights are Firestarters who tag along in the back) and getting hammered by the enemy team - while your team takes one look at the incoming fire and wets themselves. Nothing annoys an Assault pilot more than wading to their death through an ocean of incoming fire, only to find out that their team used the opportunity to try and stand on top of each other behind a rock - and likely blame the Assault for the loss.

Or the whole team moved at full speed away from the assault lance, who were left at the mercy of the entire enemy team.

Or the assault gets pinned in full view of the enemy team by a swarm of mechs pressing up against his back.

Or friendly mechs keep jumping into his field of fire, preventing him fr.bringing his weapons to bear effectively.

Or he's just rushed and effectively focussed down first.

Its been my experience in losing games, the guy with the highest score is often not the best player, he's just the one that his in the back and died last.

Likewise, thebguy that died first may have been an awesome player, who either made a small mistake the enemy team capitalized on or who was just unlucky - both a serious threat in the start of the match when you don't have lights actually scouting. Assaults have to make decisions about where to go very early, so they need to know enemy positions asap. They can't always redirect to a better place mid way, as it just takes too long.

That's pretty key to assault play, in fact. Lack of speed forces you to commit to a plan very early, and ride it through. You rely on your faster teammates to provide the intelligence to make good early desicions, and if nobody does, it can be quite a coin toss.

[Void Angel]

Hey, lost this response in the Notification Overload of forgetting to unfollow a feedback thread. =)

Yeah, I've been in about all of those situations as an assault - though I've also seen awesome players survive in the back too.

I've come to find that often (though certainly not always) the Assaults getting left behind is largely the Assaults' fault - such as on the standard Pug Rotation tactic on River City skirmish fights. The Assaults on the Lower/upper city side will be in the leftmost lance, and the teams will start to rotate counterclockwise (flanking right) to try and avoid the Citadel Sniper Standoff(tm.) The Assaults, notably Dire Wolves, will thus come under fire as the trailing element - and then stop to fire back. If Assaults keep moving, under most circumstances they can get to the fight without taking significant damage, but if they stop to fire back they end up isolated with a ride on the rofflecopter.

This is not always the case, however, and players will often ignore the Assault's frantic cries of "I've got a light swarm in me! Need help in B4!" or et cetera. This flows from some of the same causes as lack of scouting. For example, take the Firestarter. Many Firestarter pilots have learned that they get the best performance out of their 'mech when backstabbing larger opponents who cannot afford to pay attention to them - such as assaults engaging their counterparts. So, the Firestarter jockeys, who have all short-range guns anyway, will hang back and try to preserve their armor instead of running the risk of scouting and taking early damage. Well, and good, but these pilots have concluded that this is The Way You Play the Firestarter, and will refuse to adapt that playstyle to the reality of being the only light(s) on a given team. Same goes for ECM Ravens who are "covering the team."

This is why details matter in all things; overly simplistic solutions to problems usually flow from misunderstanding the problem itself - and lead to maladaptive behaviors. =)

[McGruberr]

I gotta say, I LOVE this post. The I have to agree that there simply isn't enough teamwork going on in pug matches. This definitely leads to timidity when you can't depend on your team to back you up. I'm not a big assault player myself, but I do drop as a crab or atlas from time to time, and nothing is more infuriating when a team calls a charge and then doesn't follow through with it leaving me alone out in the open with a slow assault chassis. I agree that timidity is simply not a viable tactic. There is a difference between being careful and being timid. I loved the point you made on armor being a resource. I never thought about it that way, but totally agree. I think more people, especially in pug matches, need to start using that thinking. Over-all great post. Thanks for sharing it.

[warner2]

Nightmare1, on 15 February 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Finally got that vid uploaded:



BerserX and I weren't able to assume command due to fighting on the front. Neither of us had the luxury of typing while engaged. However, the Pugs were smart enough to follow our lead and smash through the flank with us.

It was a good scrap, even if a clueless King Crab ally did leg me in the end.

Nice match. You don't think you walked in front of a friendly King Crab that was laying down AC2 fire then?

[Barkem Squirrel]

This gets me thinking, on how my team can play at times.

Add some adult beverages, and the need to brawl.

What is the most direct line to the other team and how can we use terrain to hide our movements until it is too late?

Lastly, grab hold of them and focus fire. Normally enough turn tail and run from us due to the violence of action when initiating contact. (one or two die immediately)

[Nightmare1]

warner2, on 11 March 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Nice match. You don't think you walked in front of a friendly King Crab that was laying down AC2 fire then?

Yeah, the Mech I was using wasn't even Basic'd though, so once I realized that I was going to pass in front of him, I was going to fast to stop. I was hoping that he would cut his fire once the enemy Mech went down, but his reflexes were slow and he triggered a couple more shots after it was dead. There's definitely a time gap there between the time the Mech died and the moment he shot me.

Basically, it was a system of failures on both our parts. Mine was forgetting that I was using a "green" Mech which needed longer stop spaces, and his was from not being more attentive to his gunnery.

[YueFei]

Nightmare1, on 11 March 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Yeah, the Mech I was using wasn't even Basic'd though, so once I realized that I was going to pass in front of him, I was going to fast to stop. I was hoping that he would cut his fire once the enemy Mech went down, but his reflexes were slow and he triggered a couple more shots after it was dead. There's definitely a time gap there between the time the Mech died and the moment he shot me.

Basically, it was a system of failures on both our parts. Mine was forgetting that I was using a "green" Mech which needed longer stop spaces, and his was from not being more attentive to his gunnery.

It happens man. Sometimes I get shot in the back and turn around and I apologize for blocking my teammate's shot cuz I know I stepped into the wrong spot.

If only we had rear and side-view cameras, we'd have better feel for where our teammates are.

I guess I just have to look at the minimap more often to see where the blue triangles are.

[rolling thunder]

Timidity, now I've been playing the game for a few month I have a better opinion of what is going wrong in some cases. Yesterday was a prime example. For starters, if you are kicking ass & chewing bubblegum you should always take time to look around to see if anyone is being picked on. It's called mutual support. As has already been stated, Assault mechs don't last long when they are being swarmed, help them out. Stop getting in other mechs tailpipes, maintain spacing so when you come to a choke point you don't end up blocking a line of retreat. When progressing to the battlefield remember to wait for the assaults. Lights can go forwards & to the flanks as long as they report back. Yesterday I witnessed the one major thing I hate about this game, glory hunting. We were winning, not by much I grant. We were 10 mechs to 11 & a light was tearing our heavy a new exhaust port while our Medium Mech was trying to take the enemy base. Despite requests from the team to go help the heavy the Medium continued to try & take the base. End result, the heavy was killed by the light, the Medium was killed by the base turrets. All it would have took was some mutual support. May be off topic but I really dislike these team where all the ECM is on one side!

[purplewasabi]

rolling thunder, on 12 March 2015 - 02:36 AM, said:

Timidity, now I've been playing the game for a few month I have a better opinion of what is going wrong in some cases. Yesterday was a prime example. For starters, if you are kicking ass & chewing bubblegum you should always take time to look around to see if anyone is being picked on. It's called mutual support. As has already been stated, Assault mechs don't last long when they are being swarmed, help them out. Stop getting in other mechs tailpipes, maintain spacing so when you come to a choke point you don't end up blocking a line of retreat. When progressing to the battlefield remember to wait for the assaults. Lights can go forwards & to the flanks as long as they report back. Yesterday I witnessed the one major thing I hate about this game, glory hunting. We were winning, not by much I grant. We were 10 mechs to 11 & a light was tearing our heavy a new exhaust port while our Medium Mech was trying to take the enemy base. Despite requests from the team to go help the heavy the Medium continued to try & take the base. End result, the heavy was killed by the light, the Medium was killed by the base turrets. All it would have took was some mutual support. May be off topic but I really dislike these team where all the ECM is on one side!

On the topic of mutual support, I would also like to add that the priority level of the target should also be considered. There was one game where friendly snipers and LRM mechs were being swarmed by enemy lights. They weren't that far from the main group but the main group was heavily engaged in a brawl. Friendly lights ignored their call for help as they found an isolated Atlas and decided to swarm, possibly AFK early in the game. Ultimately, the lights got the Atlas, but our long range mechs did not survive and the game got a bit more difficult thereafter as enemy lights regrouped with their main. It happens too often in pug drops. In a way its sort of related to timidity(?)

edit: my perception is that they saw big stompy mechs, big guns, run away and maybe come back later when the enemies are soften up. get 5 kills before they go down and then complain "I got 5 kills, you can't get one!?".

oh the joys of pug life

Edited by purplewasabi, 18 March 2015 - 08:11 PM.