152 replies to this topic

[SpiralRazor]

AlexEss, on 22 January 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well you go your way if you think it is the right way.

But i feel you are blowing things way out of proportion. I do not know your gaming history (and truth be told i do not care either.) but personally i feel this game is progressing a a fair pace compared to the rest of the MMO's i have played and beta-tested. I can also sympathise with the dvs who i am sure are as (and most likley MORE) frustrated as you are that the time table have been pushed back. But that is game development for you and that is why we have thing like the trademarked Soon or Valve time. Heck Blizzard pushed games back so often it became a joke (we had yet to invent the meme back then so we had to do our humour without raptors or ceiling-mechs) Instead try and look at this as something positive, that they at least take the extra time to try and iron things out before they pile more stuff on to it.

But by all means step away. I can say with 100% certainty that you will get a mail once they "launch" and then you can come back and take a second look at the game. But doing what you do now serves no real good end. The only thing you do is paint your fellow gamers as to stupid to make up their own mind. Let other people make up their own mind and just step away, nobody likes a Don Quijote nor do anyone like being called a windmill.

you should really read the post directly above yours before you try and do any white knighting.

[Congzilla]

LOL if you aren't satisfied with an unfinished game then stop spending money that will help them hire more people and get it finished. That is the most idiotic logic I have ever seen.

[Greyfyl]

Sir Trent Howell, on 22 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

It's an internet video game in Beta, not an international puppy slaying conglomerate. Now stop throwing a temper tantrum. We want this game to succeed, so we support it. We do not run the development, so launching some sort of coup to pretend like you have power over it is just silly. Stop trying to ruin it for the rest of us. If you don't like the game, then you can quit, you don't have to support or invest in it, but trying to subvert the development and recruiting malcontents is just petty.

I'm pretty sure I'm the customer in this scenario. If they don't want me to voice my displeasure with their product in public so easily then for gods sake don't bother to put up a forum.

And how is my displeasure with what I consider a half-assed product ruining it for you in the least?

Edited by Greyfyl, 22 January 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[anonymous175]

Didn't work for Theresa Spence, won't work for you.

Let Capitalism worry about these matters. Go play what makes you feels.

If you're hellbent on waiting for this game to be where it should be, come back in a year, either with rolls of quarters or a 40oz.

Edited by Zeno Scarborough, 22 January 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Skaroth]

Vrbas, on 22 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

I haven't paid a dime since closed beta.... where they only got $30 from me... I'm doing my job.



Well, technically I bought $7 worth of MC for another mech bay since I was getting tired of only having four. Still.

You are a real hero.

Why don't you instead, focus your attention on the major banks of this world who are literally stealing trillions of dollars from taxpayers. Want to really "stick it to the man"? pull all of your money out of the bank, stop paying taxes and tell your government to back the **** off of your rights.

Chances are you don't have a ******* clue what I am talking about

[Bishop Steiner]

Nah.


I'm pretty sure I have the Death's Knell to spend MC on.. and some paint.

And I might just buy a few bobbleheads.

Just to pi$$ you off.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I could do that... or I could keep playing the incomplete beta which is only going to keep getting better with time and keep having fun in the 30 minutes a day or so I have to play as improvements are made.

[elitist]

Congzilla, on 22 January 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

LOL if you aren't satisfied with an unfinished game then stop spending money that will help them hire more people and get it finished. That is the most idiotic logic I have ever seen.

/vg/ is never pleased with what PGI does. So many tears were shed over the amount of posts Garth made on reddit today compared to the forums.

[Pax Noctis]

Quote

only to see week after week, month after month of no change in Netcode, stability (4 fps bug, client hanging on shutdown, no DX11 to utilize my modern GPU) and no Community Warfare (90 days after Open Beta).

The answer to your own problem lies right there in this sentence. Let me call it out again for you,

Quote

(90 days after Open Beta).

90 Days. 12.85 weeks (more like 11.85 because of the holiday, but we'll use the full time because your expectations for this "AAA" service involves working software engineers like dogs over their holiday breaks. We'll ignore the fact that if you actually did this you would have very few good software engineers left working for you and pretend this was just any other 90 days and that no one got sick or had vacation or had a baby). 40 hours a week is how much normal people are expected to work (really more like 50 in the game industry), but since you, a random person on an internet forum, want "AAA" service, Russ cracks the ole Canadian bullwhip and demands 60 hour work weeks from everyone (we'll ignore the burn out this would cause, the drop in productivity and the increase in bugs, the exodus of talent to more reasonable jobs and possibly even lawsuits).

771 hours per engineer. Damn, that's a lot, surely you could write an AI in that time with a decent sized team, right?

First off, no matter how much you yell at them, engineers have to eat. There goes 90 hours. You're legally required to give them two fifteen minute breaks a day. There goes 45 hours. You're not a software engineer (I can tell), but if you were, you'd know we have these things called "stand ups" every morning, and those are pretty important, so that's 22.5 hours gone, and 15.5 in the bathroom (assuming no dumps, or at least you provide industrial grade laxatives). Like any large project, this one involves coordination and talking to people. Let's say you somehow superhumanly manage to keep that to 1 hour a day, including any meetings, there goes another 90 hours. Compiling is a thing, and something as big as MWO probably doesn't compile quickly, and also test deployments and engineer testing before it goes to QA. If you spend less than an hour a day on this kind of miscellaneous computer overhead/watching progress bars move, you're lucky. There goes another 90 hours.

You're down to around 410 hours spent programming, and this is working your entire team like a dog, revolutionizing the world of software process with such a lightweight communication stack, buying $4,000 Alienware machines for every engineer to optimize build and deployment and copy times, and violating labor laws.

Now, how long does the act of actually coding something take. Do you know? How many people can work simultaneously on one thing before it becomes unproductive? What is a merge conflict and why are they bad? Should code reviews be done? What about unit tests?

You're complaining that a whopping 410 man-working-hours (assuming you run your business like Stalin) after open beta, you don't have community warfare. Do you even have a conception of what that means? How much work goes into that feature? How much testing? How much DESIGN? How about a matchmaker with Elo. How do you test that under the kind of load it will have in the real world? How do you know if it has mathematical fringe cases that will break the game or make matches unable to start? How do you know if it's fair?

See, you didn't even mention matchmaking, but you have to consider the matchmaker when designing CW, and potential CW ramifications while designing the matchmaker. That requires more meetings, architecture diagrams, compromises, tests, re-tests, designs and re-designs. No matter how demanding your customers are, your employees are humans, they are going to make mistakes, and indeed making mistakes and learning from them is how software engineering actually happens. I could give the OP $10,000,000 in seed capital and SVN credentials to get an MWO's code and I bet I'd come back in a year and you wouldn't have a CW that was actually releasable, and you're complaining that it's been a whole 90 days? If you knew an enterprise level software pipeline from My Little Pony fan fiction, you'd be laughing at how absurd your statement is. The large company I work for with very highly paid software engineers was not able to implement a web-based project management sub system in 90 days, and you want someone to design a game system that models real world factional warfare in conjunction with a heuristic, math-based match maker, UI for a bunch of new game modes, while fixing all the bugs that aggravate you over a holiday break in less time than many software teams can produce a bugfix patch. It's silly. It's unreasonably entitled and it makes your whole argument look bad.

If I worked at PGI, I wouldn't read these damn forums either, and believe me, when you pour months of your life and blood and sweat and tears into something and release it, you damn well have a strong desire to be on that forum, seeing people talk about your work and interacting with them. It takes a uniquely toxic community to crush that urge as completely as this one has so quickly.

[JayVrb]

Skaroth, on 22 January 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

You are a real hero.

Why don't you instead, focus your attention on the major banks of this world who are literally stealing trillions of dollars from taxpayers. Want to really "stick it to the man"? pull all of your money out of the bank, stop paying taxes and tell your government to back the **** off of your rights.

Chances are you don't have a ******* clue what I am talking about

Umm, ok.

Good thing we can fix such an economic issue here at MWO. And I'm glad we have pseudo patriots like you who know how to "fight the machine." See you on the battlefield fellow soldier!

[anonymous175]

Merka.

[BlueSanta]

I gave my last $7 to them before the 2x XP weekend so that I could convert some of that leftover XP to GXP. I've spent over $150, but not another dollar more until this game is more stable and they address its many problems.

[Terran123rd]

No. I will keep playing, and I will pay the moment I have money to spend. Why? Because I AM satisfied with the way things are going. It's because of the toxicity of the forums that the devs are avoiding this place like the plague.

[Galathon Redd]

I read "We pay less attention to people with 1000+ posts than to people with 1" as "We're more interested in legitimate concerns posted by actual players than whining from trolls that have a track record of looking for **** to QQ about."

I'm perfectly comfortable with that assessment, except that I missed the part where he said "We totally ignore anything posted by heavier forum users", especially when, immediately afterward, he said just the opposite - that they look at ALL the posts, but give more gravity to people who don't constantly whine and complain.

[Mike Silva]

QuantumButler, on 22 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yeah you're not allowed to criticize something unless you can do that thing yourself, that's why all film critics are accomplished directors with many Academy award winning titles under their belts.

I'm not a game dev, but I can tell you that "Don't **** your pants" is a awful game.

But at least the person who created the "Don't **** your pants" game actually created something and put themselves out there to be criticized. That automatically places that person above everybody here who would rather complain about the idea that an unfinished game is in beta status than actually create something of their own and put it out there for the same criticism.

Edited by Mike Silva, 22 January 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Mike Silva]

Greyfyl, on 22 January 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

I have never written a line of code in my life, but I have been in product development for nearly 20 years. What I see from these developers is plain old poor decision making. End of story. And really, I still get a giggle out of those of you that treat these guys like they are your buddies. I assume these are also the same people that have never known anyone in a sales or marketing position in their entire lives.

Right, so you're management? No technical background?

[Josef Nader]

I'm satisfied with the progress, as I understand the rigors of game design and refuse to delude myself into thinking a small, underfunded team like PGI can perform miracles. I like what they've done so far, and in spite of the rough edges I think this game has the potential to be amazing with ongoing efforts to add polish.

As such, I will continue to play several hours a day and dump around $30 a month into it.

[Novawrecker]

Greyfyl, on 22 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

If they don't want me to voice my displeasure with their product in public so easily then for gods sake don't bother to put up a forum.

I believe it is more of a matter of how it's being said compared to what is being said. If displeasures are presented in a constructive and rational form, they will be more receptive to it versus "This is crap!" "You're product stinks!" "Stop thinking out your a$$es!", etc, etc, etc. (note: not that your particular displeasure was presented in such negative fashion, I'm just stating a generality).

[Mike Silva]

Novawrecker, on 22 January 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

I believe it is more of a matter of how it's being said compared to what is being said. If displeasures are presented in a constructive and rational form, they will be more receptive to it versus "This is crap!" "You're product stinks!" "Stop thinking out your a$$es!", etc, etc, etc. (note: not that your particular displeasure was presented in such negative fashion, I'm just stating a generality).

Seriously. There's useful criticism, and then there's being an overt tool. Don't be an overt tool.

[StalaggtIKE]

Zeno Scarborough, on 22 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

OMG, did they died?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 06:36 PM.