949 replies to this topic

[Ian]

Once you add BV to the equation clanners arn't a big deal. The only real problem I have with the Clans is that they attract the people who want the 'I win' button. "Wait their mechs go faster, do more damage from further away, thats totally my thing." "Yes, yes i'm into honorable one on one combat with someone who's mech is far worse than mine, sign me up now." That's not the majority of them of course. But its enough to make the clans look bad. If it helps I often feel the same way about assault mechs. "OH its got the most armor AND the most guns, sign me up now."

Again if the battles are matched by some form of BV then it should all be good.

[Ian]

I'm not trolling. I just think you are trying to selectively choose things that are acceptable for you in science fiction to argue your point. I don't even disagree with your point. So long as its coolant pods that follow the rules and are available in the same fashion as any other experimental tech, and not coolant flushes ala MW4 that are "I win" buttons for energy boats. Its totally OK with you that they make fusion reactors work. Its totally OK with you that walking tanks make more sense than any other form of locomotion. But that they don't explode when you need them to, that's totally unacceptable and unrealistic.

[MagnusEffect]

but does an engine explosion constitute damage to a nearby mech? as i stated before, certainly, there should be a heatspike, a powerful rush of air, and **** should catch fire, but unless another mech has it's legs wrapped around your torso (more questions should be raised if that is the case), I don't see how it could receive any significant amount of damage. also, i don't know if it has been mentioned but while the "science" behind a sun and a fusion engine are similar, the ones powering a battlemech are on a MUCH SMALLER SCALE. Simply but, you are overestimating the output potential of the engine. again, the sarna.net article is quite clear.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 30 May 2012 - 01:57 AM.

[BulletProofPanda]

What would happen if a control circuit is damaged in the reactor and creates an uncontrolable reaction, this would make any reactor go pop.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Ok Ian, lets talk this out. I am with you on coolant, so long as the rules are employed and enforced correctly. MW4 took a good idea and poured a whole lot of sour on what could have been sweet. Onto the critical issue here: it irks me that they <the whole of BTU it seems applies selective physics to the fusion reactor and how it should detonate when breached> This irks me in the same way 'leet speak' and numbers for letters does. Just the way I am wired, I focus on details, and sometimes my ability to suspend disbelief is broken by certain poetic licensing taken, like the lack of detonations that rightly should be there. I get it for terms of game play that it needs to be what it is, but, its akin to nails on a green chalk board. For me, its a bit of an immersion breaker. know what i mean ian?

David PeachHill, on 30 May 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

What would happen if a control circuit is damaged in the reactor and creates an uncontrolable reaction, this would make any reactor go pop.

yup.

MagnusEffect, on 30 May 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

but does an engine explosion constitute damage to a nearby mech? as i stated before, certainly, there should be a heatspike and **** should catch fire, but unless another mech has it's legs wrapped around your torso (more questions should be raised if that is the case), I don't see how it could receive any significant amount of damage. again, the sarna.net article is quite clear.

this, is something we probably wont know until we get into the game, either as those lucky few with beta keys, or final launch. wait and see friend

[Max Dragon]

black knight mechs plz

[MagnusEffect]

Max Dragon, on 30 May 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

black knight mechs plz

with an AXE! (i'm just assuming you want one even though this thread is about stuff you dont want)

BL-9-KNT: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Knight

Yes, I'm incredibly pro-Mech Hatchets as you can see in my banner. I will admit that Mech Swords make much less sense though. It is far more plausible that Mech sized melee weapons do damage mostly from crushing and piercing than cutting. Besides... swords are way too Gundam-y for my liking.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 30 May 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[William Petersen]

Rejarial Galatan, on 29 May 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

You can not, 100% of the time control 100% of your heat. It simply cannot be done. Saying you can, like you are implying, is fantasy! You refuse to acknowledge that, there will come a time, when you have taken so much damage to critical components such as heat sinks that mitigating heat is simply no longer an option. And yes, heat can just as easily destroy a mech. We are talking a nuclear reaction strapped under your seat or just behind your back depending on the mech, if the reactor gets too hot thanks to a lack of heat mitigation from internal reactor coolant <which we all assume is there to keep the fuel source for this very reaction stable and cool> being boiled off thanks to a lack of heat sink mitigation, that reactor is going to pull a Chernobyl on you faster than you can flip the switch to get out of the machine.
Fact is, stack on that reactor to your energy weapons plus heat sink damage plus hitting the shut down over ride because you would prefer to go down swinging in the end, will, with out a coolant flush across what remains of the heat sinks, will force the reactor to supernova on you.
And, face it, coolant flushing in what ever form is to heat mitigation what case is to ammo explosions. It is a way to avoid having your weapons cook your mech in one way or the other. On a fun note here Petersen, if you think I am joking about the heat thing, consider this, it takes heating an atomic nuclei to a mind blowing 50 MILLION degrees. just so you cant say i am making this up: http://other.nrl.nav...eactiontemp.htm
Stack that colossal temperature inside the reactor core of your mech, to a failing heat sink system PLUS ambient temperature outside the battle mech to heat generated by chemical propulsion in missiles <if you still have em left at this point> to energy weapon discharges, your mech will superheat rather quickly. Dumping a few gallons of coolant across heatsinks at a critical moment between life and death of a mech can save your life. deny it all you like again, we all, even those who would disagree, will see that moment, where a coolant flush of some sort could have saved you a defeat and garnered a victory.

I reject your whole premise. If I have taken damage to my engine and heat sinks, then I adjust my play. I still control my heat. 2 engine crits (the maximum before destruction) cause 10 heat/turn. Unless I'm running a stupidly light engine, I have 10 heatsinks internal to the engine which *cannot be critted*. If you over heat, it's you fault an no one else's. Not compensating for damage is pilot error, and nothing else.

The only case you could possibly make is for a flamer-equipped mech *and* having engine crits. But frankly, if I have two engine crits I'm either moments away from being cored, or in a Clan Mech (who probably has DHS and laughs at the idea of 'heat management' anyway. If I'm being lit up with flamers otherwise, I adjust my play and conserve my shots and wait 'til *he* over heats. Flamers generate more heat than they inflict, and deal no damage while doing it.

And, again, since you can't apparently be bothered to read what I write, I will repeat myself:

There is no similarity between CASE and Coolant Pods. The wrost ill effect you suffer from overheating (if you're not carrying any ammo), is shutting down for a few seconds. That's it. A few seconds. Hell, in one of the videos it showed someone shut down, and they were incapacitated for what, 5 seconds, if that? How devestating! You take an ammo crit without CASE and you're done. Game. Over. Heck, if you're using an IS XL Engine, even with CASE you're toast.

I'm not even going to bother to respond to your psudo-physics that you only ever acknowledge when it suits you, and conveniently ignore thermodynamics for the sake of your munchkin desires. In terms of game rules there is no risk of mech destruction from simple over heating (again, unless you're carrying ammo that'll 'cook off'). BattleTech reactors do not "go supernova". They just shut down. There's a point where you can't override, you shut down. Period. Stop reading Stackpole; "artistic license" doesn't even begin to cover his absurdity.

"Dumping coolant over your heat sinks" (wait, didn't you say they're destroyed in this hypothetical?) would also cause them to, y'know, shatter/crack/explode. Since you're all worried about physics now.

Quote

we all, even those who would disagree, will see that moment, where a coolant flush of some sort could have saved you a defeat and garnered a victory.

Maybe, but if that situation arises, the person who 'needs' the 'coolant flush' deserves to lose; next time play better.

Prosperity Park, on 29 May 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Coolant Pods and CASE both have a purpose in the game: they both are meant to mitigate the deleterioius features of their associated weapons platforms; they both take up space, weight, and stuff...; and they're both canon to the time when this game will be launched.

There is a significant difference in the amount of tactical advantages and risks they afford you, though: CASE is not really bad for you in any way, and it kind of helps to keep your Mech intact... but it won't keep you in the fight because you'll still lose all the affected weapons and bodyparts. CASE lets you limp home instead of die on the spot; Coolant Pods are volatile and can explode like ammo, but the gains they offer can keep your lasers blazing for that extra 10-seconds you might need to keep yourself alive and see the fight through.

There is also a major difference of "Prototype vs Common Equipment." Cooland Pods would be pretty hard to come-by... but I'm not against their inclusion in the game as long as they obey the rules.

I'd also point out that CASE is contained in the standard tournament rules; Coolant Pods are not. As with all experimental tech, they are optional, experimental rules.

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 May 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

to over come the repulsive forces of atomic nuclei, you MUST heat them to the point where they are moving so fast, they hit and fuse before the repulsive forces drive them apart, and to achieve this, they must be extremely hot. namely millions of degrees. Courtesy of http://nineplanets.org/sol.html our Sun' solar mass of 1, a nominal main Sequence star of average size at its core is a staggering 15 million Kelvin and change. and, if you make the claim that the heat doesnt make an already unstable process go boom, i want to see your facts backing it up, preferably something with a PGI logo on it. not trollin ya on this one man, but, gotta back the claim up to be fair.

also: http://other.nrl.nav...eactiontemp.htm
also for those of you who dig this sorta thing: http://en.wikipedia..../Nuclear_fusion

edit: the pair of also's were added.

There you go quoting physics all the while ignoring the way heat transfer works... Again.

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 May 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

dude, think on this a moment, from a pure physics stand point, not counting the fact that a fusion reaction is just not possible yet, if you damage that reactors ability to keep its fuel at a 'reasonable' temperature, you will have a small supernova explosion on your hands, because face it, you have a micro star inside your machine. To think that you cannot cause a core melt down ala Chernobyl is fantasy. You keep going long enough, it will go boom, period. Only 2 ways around it: cool the mech some how, or cool the mech some how.

...and again.

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 May 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

The science geek in me is a touch agitated by what they say in the fusion engine thing. Just on a real world issue here, iron cannot be fused. When a star of sufficient size, several times the size of our beloved Sun, start to form iron in the core, the star is SECONDS from death. a few atoms mass worth of iron is enough to bring starts many times the size of our own into a super nova detonation. Now, please tell me who at FASA decided that when a mechs reactor core is breached, most likely some iron will make it into the reactor before it 'shuts down' which fusion being what it is, tends to dislike this and gets really violent about it. This is one case where they said: hmm, physics, ah screw it, lets say it shuts down. This is one place where suspension of disbelief fails me hard.

But the "Science geek" in you isn't irritated by the complete lack of thermodynamic sense made by the ridiculous idea of coolant flush? Dude, come on, just admit it. You're a power-gamer and just want the MW3/4 easy-mode button to make E-boats OP again.


...I really can't be bothered to keep going through your drivel and pointing out your inconsistencies. I'm going to go do something productive with my time, like watch paint dry.

[Ian]

Quote

This irks me in the same way 'leet speak' and numbers for letters does.

You are preaching to the choir there.

Quote

<the whole of BTU it seems applies selective physics to the fusion reactor and how it should detonate when breached>

There is also the question of it being breached at all. Coring a mech means you have destroyed the structure that holds it together. Much like you can demolish a car without destroying the engine. How often when the mech is cored, is the reactor also breached becomes the question.

Weather what results is a violent explosion or...

Quote

there should be a heatspike, a powerful rush of air, and **** should catch fire

Is not really an issue if its so rare you may never see it.

The casing of the reactor is there in part to survive long enough for the safety systems to shut down the reaction before anything catastrophic could happen.

Quote

Max Dragon, on 30 May 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

black knight mechs plz

with an AXE! (i'm just assuming you want one even though this thread is about stuff you dont want)

BL-9-KNT: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Knight

Edited by MagnusEffect, Today, 03:08 AM.

I'd rather have the Royal version.

Edited by Ian, 30 May 2012 - 02:11 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Ok while nobody jump on the CASE II compromiss...
There are rules for coolant pods...they can be used once a time - and you have a high change to cripple your heatsinks

So flush the sinks will result in worser heat build up afterwards...it is no i win button - but you cant compare it with CASE after all - so please don't do it

Next please: stop talking about science in the same sentence with battletech

[Tincan Nightmare]

Rejarial Galatan, on 29 May 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

while your theory is good on paper, in practice, it falls apart. Here is how: Your mech is critically damaged, as is your opponent. Either of you with the next alpha can kill the other. Are you going to tell me, your going to be tentative with your weapons in a critical moment just to avoid a heat shut down? The thing is, if that next alpha will kill you, and save my hide, you bet I will alpha, no questions, no regrets. What you ignored is when the flush is its most vital, and cherry picked out the bit you wanted and decided to run off with it. My point will always be, no matter who ignores it is, there is that moment in your fight, when you know, the one thing that could save you, can just as easily kill you. Hold back if you want in that moment, but, know this, its not gonna save you if you wait for heat to fall to a 'safe' level, because, most of us will go: if its him or me, my enemy dies, even if it costs me my own life to make this shot.

Like it or not, if it is done right, and I mean RIGHT, as Belisarius has pointed out in post number 416, it is a very viable option. You can say manage your heat all you want, but, in the end, there will always be that point when you are near death, your mech is soo battered from the fight, it cannot mitigate heat, but you need to keep firing those lasers, because you have no ammo left and its a true kill or be killed moment.

It is not a viable option because you have just cheated your opponent out of his/her victory. If we begin a match together, and you are in such desperate straits due to damage I have inflicted on you, and I am closing in for the kill, WHY IN THE HELL DO YOU GET AN INSTANT WIN BUTTON! You suddenly get to drop all your heat and ALPHA STRIKE ME! Should magic fairys appear and chain my mech to the ground as well to make it easier for you. Battle damage occurs for EVERYBODY, how you choose to react to it determines the type of pilot your are in game. Asking for a 'make it go away' button is just freaking sad. And I do not want to fight in a battle where my opponent can reward themself for bad decisions and piloting.

In canon, the ONLY mention of this type of system was the coolant pods mentioned numerous times on the several threads you have argued this point on. The coolant flush came from MW3 and MW4, something they made up entirely on their own. Why do we need that system in MWO? If they do the heat balance right, mounting enough heat sinks and picking the right weapon loadout will leave you with no probems with heat. Yes it possible that battle damage will result in climbing heat levels, due to engine damage or loss of heat sinks, but that is universal for everybody. It doesn't offer any one player an advantage over another, though you can minimize or maximize the problem in the mechlab.

And for your real world physics, lets take a car out on the autobahn, let it run real hard for awhile so the engine is hot, then poke a hole in the radiator so you start losing radiator fluid. Is that car suddenly going to get a quick temperature loss in the engine, or will it eventually overheat? Coolant in a mech is named coolant because thats what keeps it cool. If a mech is near shutdown, how will suddenly spraying coolant out of its *** drop its heat, since you are getting rid of the medium it uses to dispose of that heat.

[Max Liao]

If I remember correctly, MaxTeh and Unbound are not canon; I'm not sure about the others. They are considered Level 3 and outside canon and tournament rules. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Adrienne Vorton]

oh i almost forgot the most important thing... Bluescreens and low fps (i hope my machine can handle at least the basics of this game)

[Strum Wealh]

After reading through the last several pages...

The one thing I would most like to not see is a heat system that makes dealing with heat too easy.

A single standard heat sink (SHS) dissipates one unit of heat over a 10-second period (one TT turn), representing a dissipation rate of 0.10 units of heat per second.
A single double heat sink (DHS) dissipates one unit of heat over a 10-second period (one TT turn), representing a dissipation rate of 0.20 units of heat per second.

The cooling rate should be affected by the environment - cooler environments should result in slight increases in the overall cooling rate, while warmer environments should result in slight decreases in the overall cooling rate.

Walking (throttle setting 0<X≤60%) and standing up after being knocked down should produce 0.10 units of heat per second, running (throttle setting 60%<X≤100%) should produce 0.20 units of heat per second, jump jets should produce 0.10 units of heat per second in addition to a flat three units of heat at activation, having one critical hit to the engine should produce 0.50 units of heat per second, and having two critical hits to the engine should produce 1.00 units of heat per second.

Standing in up-to-ankle-deep water should increase the overall heat dissipation (the sum of all functional heat sinks' dissipations, after adjustment for the environment) by 10%, while standing in at-least-ankle-deep water should increase the overall heat dissipation by 25%, and complete submergence should increase the overall heat dissipation by 50%.

The classical "free" coolant flush as implemented in MW3 and MW4 should not be implemented.
Coolant Trucks should be potentially available, depending on the map and game mode, and should require the 'Mech to both travel to them and shut down in order to allow them to connect and do their work.
Coolant Pods (which appeared on the DV-8D2 Dervish "Lightbringer", the Black Hawk-KU Alt. Config X, the PLG-4X Pillager Anvils, the HSN-7D2 Hellspawn Halperin, the JG-R9T2 Juggernaut, and the Turkina Alt. Config U, among others) should be an option, but would consume tonnage and critical space, be susceptible to exploding (and dealing damage to the equipped 'Mech) if struck by weapons fire, are single use, and work by increasing the cooling rate of all functional heat sinks (of either type) by 50% (e.g. SHS dissipate 0.15 heat per second and DHS dissipate 0.30 heat per second) over a 10-second period.

Overheating can lead to slowing of movement and convergence rates, risk of shutdown, and risk of ammo explosions.

That's my take on it. Your thoughts?

[Baroque]

Pay to win. Enough said.

And campers.

[Punisher 1]

If it is only one thing, Hackers

If I could have more options

Exploiters, trolls, underage immature players, Chinese credit farmers, loud mouthed trash talkers, pay to win or exploit the player base.

Edited by Punisher 1, 30 May 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[diamond909]

the one thing I don't want to see is hacking although I know someone is going to try and hack

[Evinthal]

Rejarial Galatan, on 29 May 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

while your theory is good on paper, in practice, it falls apart. Here is how: Your mech is critically damaged, as is your opponent. Either of you with the next alpha can kill the other. Are you going to tell me, your going to be tentative with your weapons in a critical moment just to avoid a heat shut down? The thing is, if that next alpha will kill you, and save my hide, you bet I will alpha, no questions, no regrets. What you ignored is when the flush is its most vital, and cherry picked out the bit you wanted and decided to run off with it. My point will always be, no matter who ignores it is, there is that moment in your fight, when you know, the one thing that could save you, can just as easily kill you. Hold back if you want in that moment, but, know this, its not gonna save you if you wait for heat to fall to a 'safe' level, because, most of us will go: if its him or me, my enemy dies, even if it costs me my own life to make this shot.

Like it or not, if it is done right, and I mean RIGHT, as Belisarius has pointed out in post number 416, it is a very viable option. You can say manage your heat all you want, but, in the end, there will always be that point when you are near death, your mech is soo battered from the fight, it cannot mitigate heat, but you need to keep firing those lasers, because you have no ammo left and its a true kill or be killed moment.

Bolding by me. If you are THAT far gone, you might as well just alpha and NOT worry about shutting down because you are dead anyway.

You are also forgetting this isn't about one on one. This is a team game. Why do people insist on forgetting this.

This argument of one on one makes me laugh so hard. It is like someone in League of Legends getting upset because your lane is beating them and they start slinging the insults like "You only won because my team mate is a noob, 1v1 me noob! 1V1 ME!@ You're scared to 1v1 me!@@#"

Let me clarify: I am NOT against coolant PODS. I AM against coolant FLUSH.

There is a difference.
Coolant Pods are canon and take up critical slots and tonnage and have an inherent risk associated with them, that being they can detonate like ammunition bins do if they suffer a critical hit and are limited in use. Oh and they can trash your heat sinks too.

Coolant Flush does not take up critical slots, has no weight associated with it and has no risks associated with it either. That screams "I win button" to me.

Edited by Evinthal, 30 May 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Volthorne]

I have a couple things to throw into this shitstorm argument.

1) Rejarial, the sun WILL NOT super-nova. EVER. How you can be so ignorant as to say that Sol could super-nova when it CLEARLY doesn't have enough mass to do so is beyond me.

2) Coolant flush is an "I WIN, ROB YOU OF YOUR SUPERIOR PLAYING" button. That being said, Coolant Pods are still fair game, granted, but after you use ONE, it should trash your 'mech to the point of being able to overheat from walking. Thermodynamics and all.

3) Can we stop beating this dead horse? Rejarial clearly doesn't want to submit to common sense. Nor does he want people to actually LEARN TO PLAY THE ******* GAME, apparently.

[Volthorne]

There's nowhere in a 'mech by default where you can store extra coolant. Hence a Coolant Flush is broken garbage. Coolant Flushes aren't even IN the TT.

Buddahcjcc, on 30 May 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

I tend to be the one in the Solaris 7 medium matches who put an LB20X AC and a LB10XAC with enough ammo on it and own everyone else and never care about heat.

My "I WIN" button was the trigger button

Your load-out also uses zero energy weapons. What's your point again?

Edited by Volthorne, 30 May 2012 - 01:39 PM.