78 replies to this topic

[Theobald Hauser]

There's no reason TAG is blocked by ECM for the tagger mech, in facts, in science, in logic, or in TT rules.
In game balance maybe, but I don't think so. That's one of the things I'm advocating.
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Edited by Amarius, 26 January 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Codejack]

Amarius, on 26 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

There's no reason TAG is blocked by ECM for the tagger mech, in facts, in science, in logic, or in TT rules.
In game balance maybe, but I don't think so. That's one of the things I'm advocating.
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I don't think even in balance; TAG works for LRMs against large, slow mechs. That's it. And since 4/5 of the ECM mechs are small, fast mechs... what's the point?

[CancR]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

TAG isn't 'just a laser' though. It's a radar system that uses a laser to ping back and forth information, which is exactly what ECM jams.

Think of it almost exactly like a cop using a radar to catch speeders, and the speeder has one of the new fangled devices that jams the radar so they cant get an accurate read. That is why ECM in BT nullifies the bonus from TAG. It jams the external radar system so it gets the laser beam out, but no data pinging back.

Quote

Description
Target Acquisition Gear is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. The system was first introduced by the Terran Hegemony in 2600, but it became Lostechduring the Succession Wars until it was recovered by the Federated Suns in 3033.^[1] TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or Semi-Guided LRM munitions.

Targets and transmits data...
targets and transmits data...
target and transmits data...

When will they learn...

Edited by CancR, 26 January 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Codejack]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Targets and transmits data...
targets and transmits data...
target and transmits data...

When will they learn...

Quote

...via a tight-beam laser communication...

...to read?

Edited by Codejack, 26 January 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[CancR]

I know you are looking at the rules in guessing but I really am trying to tell you as some one who played this how these ryules actually worked if you where to go to a game store and play.
TAG IS AN EXTERNAL RADAR SYSTEM THAT TRANSMITS INFORMATION
ECM NULLS BONUS FROM ALL EXTERNAL RADAR SYSTEMS.

Saying it's just a laser doesn't even pass the makes sense test. If a tag was just a laser pointer, how could it possible effect the tight spiral of incoming missiles.

Once the data being transmitted hits that ecm bubble its gone. Dust to the wind.

[Codejack]

First of all, I was playing TT 25 years ago. Please do not try pulling any one-upsmanship on me.

Second, ECM NEVER interfered with TAG, not even the Angel ECM (which was never really available, anyway).

Third, read your quote: "The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles." How much clearer do you need it to be? There is no radar there.

Edited by Codejack, 26 January 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[CancR]

maybe as a low tree rule, however when with their being hype around the new rule set I sat down with the game store owner when the books where released and pretty much examined every last line of text on the books. Enviably ECM came up and the game store owner who is a official torny judge for battle tech said the ruling was that any external devices are nulled by ecm. Since I have this from a torny judge I'd like to see anything that shows that of the list of things which are nulled, but no one has been able to do anything but go NUH UH IM RITE CUZ I SAY SOH.

[Codejack]

I say so... and the rulebook says so.... and YOUR OWN LINK SAYS SO!

[Theobald Hauser]

Don't get riled Codejack. CancR has that skill as his speciality:
He reads only what he wants to read.
For example, there, he sees "radar" everywhere when it's said nowhere. God knows why.
[Redacted]

That's reality bending for you, sir.

And he will also say that you're some kind of call-of-duty-playing-mentally-********-person. or laugh about your non-english-speaker english skills. Because it makes him sooo right, you see.

Such a nice person.

You're wrong CancR, again, and again, and again. Just let it go and try the truth for a change.

Edited by Egomane, 29 January 2013 - 03:08 AM.
Removed personal attack

[Codejack]

How hard is is to make it work like this?

Edited by Codejack, 27 January 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[CancR]

What edition is that from?

But yes, wethier or not we agree atg should be included don't we both agree that ecm should only have the effects on what ecm was intended to effect? IE Nulling active probe, making target locks for missiles longer and not stopping them all together, ect? And not having ecm be this terrible mish-mash of all the ecms and then some?

[Codejack]

CancR, on 27 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

What edition is that from?

I'm not sure, but it references Total Warfare and includes experimental equipment, which tells you that it is fairly late.

CancR, on 27 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

But yes, wethier or not we agree atg should be included don't we both agree that ecm should only have the effects on what ecm was intended to effect? IE Nulling active probe, making target locks for missiles longer and not stopping them all together, ect? And not having ecm be this terrible mish-mash of all the ecms and then some?

Well enough; I understand that some changes need to happen when going from a turn-based to a real-time game, but I do think that the relative utility of each system and the balance between them should be maintained, and that is what PGI has failed at.

[CancR]

JP in our group suggested the idea of slave modules, and that they would be linked to the ecm. So if you did not have a slave module then you are affected by your own team's ECM. I might not be doing his idea justice but it did sound interesting.

[Corvus Antaka]

Sounds like too many changes to me. Forcing a lock everytime you fire streaks, or lowering damage on the ssrm2 to 1.5 - 2.0 first would be plenty.

[CancR]

Change is scary..but it can be good too..

Missiles have been the spear of problems being driven into PGI time and time again, and its not coincidental that missiles are the only weapons have have a higher damage value then the TT

Having all short range misses do 2/missile and all long range missile do 1/missile would go along way to fixing balance problems.

[Theobald Hauser]

Change can be good.
What about some change CancR ? Some other game, where you don't have to overhaul absolutely everything so that it suits you ?

[CancR]

Codejack, on 27 January 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Well enough; I understand that some changes need to happen when going from a turn-based to a real-time game, but I do think that the relative utility of each system and the balance between them should be maintained, and that is what PGI has failed at.

This. Streaks way out preform laser builds in for damage to skill in the light meta game as streak stacking produces less heat and has a massive margin of error making mindlessly circle strafing other lights far to simple. Light v. Light comes don to who has the most streaks and or ecm advantage, and not skill which as really hurt light scouting metagame.

[Strum Wealh]

Codejack, on 27 January 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

I'm not sure, but it references Total Warfare and includes experimental equipment, which tells you that it is fairly late.

It's from page 223 of Tactical Operations, one of the four core books that make up the current BattleTech rule set.
"Tactical Operations is the one-source reference for advanced rules that apply to on-world operations. It includes new movement and combat options, an extensive Advanced Weapons and Equipment section, and the rules for playing and constructing advanced Support Vehicles and Mobile Structures."

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With regard to the TAG vs ECM debate...

The description of TAG's operation from page 238 of TechManual (one of the four core rulebooks, dealing with unit construction and equipment specifications and backstory):
"Though it built on techniques already centuries old in 2600, Grumman Industries’ Alloran In-Line target acquisition gear became the model for the artillery-spotting laser communications system today known simply by the acronym TAG. More than a simple infrared laser-based target designation system, the TAG system tied into the user’s on-board targeting and tracking systems and used its own integral tight-beam laser communications array to link into the receptive guidance systems of certain friendly artillery warheads and guided bombs."

Contrast this with TechManual's description of the (somewhat-similar) Artemis IV Fire Control System (on page 206):
"In an effort to enhance the accuracy and lethality of standard missile racks, the first Star League developed the Artemis IV fire-control system. Mounted in a dome near the enhanced launcher, the Artemis was in essence an infrared laser designator, target lock mechanism and tightbeam microwave transmitter that - together with specialized missile control systems - helped to focus the spread of all missile volleys so enhanced."

The difference - and the reason why ECM affects Artemis and why it shouldn't affect TAG - is that Artemis uses a microwave-based transmission system to communicate with its missiles, while TAG uses a laser-based communication system to communicate with its missiles.

As microwaves are ultimately radio waves (more specifically, "radio waves with wavelengths ranging from as long as one meter to as short as one millimeter, or equivalently, with frequencies between 300 MHz (0.3 GHz) and 300 GHz"), they would be generally subject to many of the same types and sources of interference as the radio waves used in radar systems (recall, the term "radar" was originally an acronym that stood for "RAdio Detection And Ranging") and other radio-based technologies (such as Wi-Fi routers, garage door openers, and cell phones).
ECM systems are built to create a lot of "electronic noise" across a wide or specified number of radio frequencies; with enough noise, radio-based communications - such as those upon which Artemis and its associated missiles are reliant - fail, as the receiver (in this case, the Artemis missile) receives only garbled, static-filled noise rather than useful information.

By contrast, TAG uses an open-air, laser-based communications technique called "Free-Space Optical Communication", or "FSO", to communicate with its missiles via a laser transmitter (in the TAG unit, on the 'Mech) and receiver (on the missile) system.
Some of the primary advantages of FSO are high bit rate (the ability to transmit a lot of information quickly), low bit rate error (relatively little information is lost or transmitted with errors), and effective immunity to EM interference (such as the radio noise generated by ECM systems).
However, FSO is not without its disadvantages - mainly, interference from atmospheric effects and the possibility of solid objects (insects and birds, terrain, etc) blocking the laser beam.

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With regard to the OP:

The workings of ECM in MWO are largely reflective of how Guardian ECM (as distinct from Angel ECM) function in BattleTech, once the advanced combat rules found in Tactical Operations are taken into account.
I've written a number of detailed posts on the subject; they can be read here, here, and here.

I've also written a rather detailed post on the relationship between the functioning of Streak missile systems and both Guardian and Angel ECM Suites in BattleTech; it can be read here.

[DocBach]

I'm going to throw this description in there:


(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

Because the rule sets in all the various editions fail to mention how Streak Missiles or LRM's -- LRM's are only mentioned in conjunction with Artemis and Narc which say they function normally against ECM, only the Artemis and Narc is negated -- have any altered capability against a 'Mech in an ECM bubble I would say that it would be a fair compromise to allow targets in the bubble to be targeted, just unidentifiable - no target data, no chassis designation, not even a alphanumeric designation, unless a spotter has visual line of sight on them.

[Theobald Hauser]

... And not even a range indicated. Yeah I'd like that in fact.



[Redacted]
I do like your zeal though and thank you for the datas.

Edited by Egomane, 29 January 2013 - 03:10 AM.
Removed personal attack