455 replies to this topic

[Vernius Ix]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

Tone and delivery could actually be contributed to how you are reading the content v how he heard it as he wrote it. Our inner reading voice is not always accurate.

That is why I go for the old "all @$$hole all the time approach."

[Mister Blastman]

Jacmac, on 29 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Are you kidding? Nobody does it to beat up on new players, they do it to win, get kills, XP, and C-Bills. That and 8-mans are a boring festival of Raven 2Ls + Atlas D-DCs.

ECM killed 8 mans.

[Jacmac]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

I said more variety. I can face everything from the occasional 8 man to 8 PUGs. I like that measure of unknown.

What is known about you picking a solo queue (theoretically) and dropping with 7 players you have know idea who they will be and against 8 players you have know idea who they will be. What is known about you dropping in a 4-man with 4 other players who might be a 4-man, might be 2 2-mans or might be a 3-man and a solo player crazy enough drop in the 4-man queue solo? What is known about dropping as an 8-man against a team you have know idea who they will be?

The way I read it, you're either simply afraid of change or have some irrational belief that the game will go bad because solo players don't have to play against 4-mans any more.

Edited by Jacmac, 29 January 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Jacmac]

Mister Blastman, on 29 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

ECM killed 8 mans.

Temporarily. Larger maps and tweaks to ECM will most likely change the 8-man game for the better. Especially the larger maps.

[Gallowglas]

I think you'd find that many of the synch drops have absolutely nothing to do with wanting to pug stomp. It has to do with the fact that if six of your friends are online, they can't all play together without either actively adding and managing puggers or synch dropping.

Truth be told, if you want to see the system improve, you simply MUST provide some less cumbersome and more automated means for friends to play together without a great deal of inconvenience, regardless of whether they happen to be in convenient increments of four. Speaking for my company, I can safely say that we're not concerned about dropping against other premades, but often the responsibility of hunting down random puggers to join us, friending them so you can invite, etc. is tedious.

Mind you, our solution isn't to synch drop but, rather, to split into smaller groups, but that kind of sucks when you have a group of friends that want to play together.

The best solution would be to let people drop with as many friends as they like, fill in automatically with puggers, and then try to match them with a similar number of grouped folks.

Edited by Gallowglas, 29 January 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[KingCobra]

Mister Blastman, on 29 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

ECM killed 8 mans.

I personally don't think ECM had much to do with it! I think the lack of a huge chat lobby to train and recruit new players and the fact of almost 0% game socialization is killing the teams and 4-8 man groups. When you have a total lack of a fun social environment it leads to stagnation of any game and soon the ones who form teams quit the game. Also the lack of being able to group and drop on a map prevents training of new players. In past PC MechWarrior games you could group in chat lobby's or on TS or other comm programs then you had so many different leagues to play with multiple game modes. You also could have mech variations in mechlab then know your map then pick a mech to match your play style and the map you were playing on for training pour poses or progressive league play. So ECM is just a small part of PGI's problem of how they designed the game and how it is playing out now.

[Greyfyl]

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

The ELO in matchmaking phase 3 should help with to start - everyone being matched against similar skilled opponents will be a good start. Also, we'll keep adding to it as time goes on and we see what needs to be done/changed/added/etc. Also, while I do agree with you it's very sad when larger corps/clans will run 4 mans to intentionally beat up on newer players. It sucks, but maybe the fact we can see them doing it will change their mind, I dunno. People often talk a big game and then realise what it entails, and well...

I would ask what you meant by 'see them doing it'? And I agree that a properly implemented ELO system will make a huge difference in the average pug game. I would ask though why this wasn't implemented during closed beta instead of waiting this long?

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

On the other hand though, virtually every post about a 'loss' here claims it was against a premade - but when I check the logs, I find it wasn't (and if it was, it was a pair or friends or something.)

I'm really not sure how to take this, it comes across as a bit condescending. I will be the first to say (and have said many times) that many of the 8-0 and 8-1 romps that feel like premades are nothing more than 5 or 6 good players being on one team and the other team having only 1 or 2 players with experience.

With that said, anyone who has done a little bit of premades themselves can easily have a friends list of dozens of players. With TS open, you can very quickly see who ONLY does premades. There are some people on my friends list that I have never not seen is a ts dropship if they are online in the game. It is also very easy to leave TS open and simply look after the match to see if it was a premade that just ran over you.

It's not my job to prove to you that pugstomping is creating a less than enjoyable play experience during US prime time hours for a decent number of players. Some like me will just get on TS, others will just simply give up and go away. And from reading your response here, it is obvious that you realize that this is an issue.

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

To sum though, I challenge those who do drop in 4mans to try solo dropping for awhile. See how the other side lives. Yes you'll RUN back to TS3 when you're done, sure, but I hope you also see why they complain about it. Being in a 4man doesn't guarantee a win, just like being a lone wolf doesn't guarantee you'll lose. However, a 4man guarantees that team DOES NOT have four new players, and makes it more likely the opposing teams will.

So if nothing else, maybe invite a new player into your 4man and show him the ropes. Keep rotating people through every week. I understand the vast majority of 4man groups are just doing it to play with their friends, but I think you also know, if in the back of your mind, you have an unfair advantage. So help the newbies out and show them the ropes.

Bolded for emphasis. Why not simply put premades on both sides?

Edit.....and by the way, thank you very much for taking time to address this issue here.

Edited by Greyfyl, 29 January 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Shredhead]

KingCobra, on 29 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

True to some extent your statement.But the PVE part of all the old PC MechWarrior games was some of the best storyline gameplay I have ever done. Also the huge Social aspect of these games was by far much better than MWO. The multiplayer was not as good but for there time they were revolutionary and even one was game of the year? So I think your rage and misunderstanding can be accepted. NOW go do some research on the old PC games and become enlightened by there brilliance of multiplayer team/league play.

You're right, the SP part was great, and I played all those games. But the league part you're referring to was completely user generated and not part of the games initially. As I said, patience is needed because the devs have a plan for that, so we will have to wait and see.

[Jacmac]

KingCobra, on 29 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

I personally don't think ECM had much to do with it! ... So ECM is just a small part of PGI's problem of how they designed the game and how it is playing out now.

ECM is a critical part of the reason 8-mans are not popular. Because ECM can cover a large area in a small map and the victory conditions are ALWAYS centered around capturing a base, teams gravitate towards the easiest way to win. In 8-man Assault mode, that is building a core group of short range brawlers anchored by 2-3 Atlas D-DCs and a scouting force of 2-3 Raven 2Ls. The rest of the team are a mix of heavy and medium units, usually with lots of SRMs. They charge in close or sneak to the enemy base on the off chance that they happen to not scout well or miss the main force on their charge. It's like a broken record, only occasionally playing a different song.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jacmac, on 29 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

What is known about you picking a solo queue (theoretically) and dropping with 7 players you have know idea who they will be and against 8 players you have know idea who they will be. What is known about you dropping in a 4-man with 4 other players who might be a 4-man, might be 2 2-mans or might be a 3-man and a solo player crazy enough drop in the 4-man queue solo? What is known about dropping as an 8-man against a team you have know idea who they will be?

The way I read it, you're either simply afraid of change or have some irrational belief that the game will go bad because solo players don't have to play against 4-mans any more.

There goes that reading comprehension thing again. There are fewer 8 mans then there is 2 mans 3 mans & 4 mans. many of the 8 mans play the same 4 builds.Not more variety. We do drop 8man on occasions we win about 50% of our drops. But then life comes and we lose a member or two. back to two 3 man teams and into the thick of PUG drops. I've posted my Stats... I'm not the boogieman you are looking for. Move along, move along.

[KingCobra]

Shredhead, on 29 January 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

You're right, the SP part was great, and I played all those games. But the league part you're referring to was completely user generated and not part of the games initially. As I said, patience is needed because the devs have a plan for that, so we will have to wait and see.

I will because I've been here since 1980's and a huge fan or Battletech lore/books/tabletop/and all the PC xbox games.But im only one person and the game will live or die by the new generation of players. So PGI can make MWO big and prosperous or not? It has been over a year and I have yet to see a incarnation of this game all will accept.But like you said we will wait and see.

Jacmac, on 29 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

ECM is a critical part of the reason 8-mans are not popular. Because ECM can cover a large area in a small map and the victory conditions are ALWAYS centered around capturing a base, teams gravitate towards the easiest way to win. In 8-man Assault mode, that is building a core group of short range brawlers anchored by 2-3 Atlas D-DCs and a scouting force of 2-3 Raven 2Ls. The rest of the team are a mix of heavy and medium units, usually with lots of SRMs. They charge in close or sneak to the enemy base on the off chance that they happen to not scout well or miss the main force on their charge. It's like a broken record, only occasionally playing a different song.

This is true but my point is as the lack of new players becomes evident to form and create teams what does ECM matter if few teams are playing in 4-8 mans? Socialization should be PGI's first concern so new players can grow train and learn to love the MechWarrior IP and also sling that cash into it for longevity.

Edited by KingCobra, 29 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Jacmac]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

There goes that reading comprehension thing again. There are fewer 8 mans then there is 2 mans 3 mans & 4 mans. many of the 8 mans play the same 4 builds.Not more variety. We do drop 8man on occasions we win about 50% of our drops. But then life comes and we lose a member or two. back to two 3 man teams and into the thick of PUG drops. I've posted my Stats... I'm not the boogieman you are looking for. Move along, move along.

This really doesn't make any sense in the context of the question. You seem to have some problem with solo players having their own queue and not being forced to play against teams. Your original reason for this was something to do with 'more variety', which really doesn't make much sense either. So as far as reading comprehension goes, I'm trying to interpret why you think there would be less variety or why you think there would be a problem with solo player having their own queue.

[Joseph Mallan]

I am not having a problem with it. We don't have one. So until such a time we work with what we have. We only have like 25% of the game on line right now (if that).

WoW has a reputed 10 million subscribers, took 4-5 YEARS to develop and in 2012 players on forums are still complaining about PreMades! By comparison, we have been in Alpha/Beta how long now?

[Thirdstar]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

WoW has a reputed 10 million subscribers, took 4-5 YEARS to develop and in 2012 players on forums are still complaining about PreMades! By comparison, we have been in Alpha/Beta how long now?

Eh? What premades? Everything in WoW PvP is a premade.

Edit: I meant Arenas. Battleground are a different game of course.

Edited by Thirdstar, 29 January 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[xRaeder]

Jade Kitsune, on 29 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

No

You are a PuG, you are padding for existing units, that is your point of being.

if you don't like it, tough, the devs have told you what you get if you choose to pug.

Then the game is finished. The majority of players are PUGs, therefore the game should be designed around the PUG experience. If it isn't you are in danger of alienating the most important group of players, many of which will just leave.

[Coolant]

It is a natural progression against the framework and system that is given. A proper matchmaking system should've been in place by open beta. Players should not be blamed...

[Bfvmg]

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 29 January 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

A very good friend of mine runs a gaming center, he has xbox's, ps3's and pc gaming systems, he also has a room out the back for table top gaming n stuff. The reason for this post is to make the clan players aware of the damage they are doing to this game by doing 4 man sync drops so they are an 8 man group against pugs, you are making potentially new players turn away from this game and turn to other games, i have seen it with my own eyes. If you wish to be the only players of mwo then you are going in the right direction but i think the dev's might have something to say about it tho.

I also help run some gaming centers, world wide (yes, more then one. Love my job sometimes)
I am not seeing people leave like this. I see the fact that MWO is a TEAM GAME (a concept that some people just cant understand, not matter how many times we stomp...er...tell them) bringing my peeps together. They learn about teamspeak being on the alienware we provide them. They go to the FREE TS chats (NA, EU NGNG etc) and learn that playing as a team with other lmechwarriors is: 1. More fun, 2, a lot better for stats, and 3...More FUN!

Jade Kitsune, on 29 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

No

You are a PuG, you are padding for existing units, that is your point of being.

if you don't like it, tough, the devs have told you what you get if you choose to pug.

Team game. Nuff said.

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

So I just wonder what is the thinking that we all have to be equal? When we get rolstomped we just go back to the bay and say, "Lets try that again... only better."

OMG? Learn from your mistakes? Not try to bring everyone down to the same level? Say it isn't so! *Gasp*

I keep saying, and I will keep saying this. I drop in a group, and I try to synch drop 4-mans as often as I can convince people to do it. Sometimes we end on the opposite teams, sometimes the same team. Regardless, it is a million times better then dropping as a pug (and yes, I have about 500 matches as a pug...and I hated almost everyone of them). I am tired of the pug's QQ all over these boards because they lose all the time because of premades, especially when it really can be attributed to better pilots.

If you don't like it, I invite you to leave.

[Regina Redshift]

Javin, on 29 January 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Sadly convinced to get my friends to play. They got rolled really bad. Now they refuse to play. Ah well. There should be a newbie area for new player so premades do not wipe them out and destroy our player base.

Here's the thing about a newbie area... anyone can make a new account and predate newbies if that happens. Specifically, I'm thinking of the goons as I type this.

Currently, a newbie's only protection is anonymity. Now, I do think that Natural Selection 2 had the right idea when they created a newbie tag. The developer's notion is that their community is largely composed of neutral-to-helpful people. Heck, I've even seen enemies give newbies accurate tips. The only problem I see with NS2's system is that the newbie tag is not voluntary; however, it goes a long way in smoothing things over.

[Gallowglas]

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

The ELO in matchmaking phase 3 should help with to start - everyone being matched against similar skilled opponents will be a good start. Also, we'll keep adding to it as time goes on and we see what needs to be done/changed/added/etc. Also, while I do agree with you it's very sad when larger corps/clans will run 4 mans to intentionally beat up on newer players. It sucks, but maybe the fact we can see them doing it will change their mind, I dunno. People often talk a big game and then realise what it entails, and well...

Garth, in reference to this and to my own post: do you think at some point we might see a solution that will allow us to drop with any number of players grouped (up to the max, of course) and have the matchmaker fill in with pugs and then balance accordingly? That's what my group (and I am sure many others) desperately wants. It sucks to not be able to play together just because you don't have an even group of four.

Maybe this is addressed in phase 3, but I haven't seen mention of it.

Edited by Gallowglas, 29 January 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Jacmac]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

WoW has a reputed 10 million subscribers, took 4-5 YEARS to develop and in 2012 players on forums are still complaining about PreMades! By comparison, we have been in Alpha/Beta how long now?

Solo players are always going to complain about this until PGI puts in a solo-only mode. The ELO matchmaking isn't going to change this one bit. So if the message doesn't get through to PGI and they keep forcing solo players to play against premade, you can and should expect the premade complaints to continue indefinitely.