455 replies to this topic

[Zero Neutral]

The matchmaking system is not complete. This game is in beta.

[Nightcrept]

The true issue is BALANCE.

Honestly I can't tell who is in a pre-made or who isn't because in most games one side or the other is rolled up and annihilated as if they faced a pre-made.


Due to the ecm-lrm-ssrm-net code and matchmaking problems being unresolved there are far less close games and many more rolls.

Again the PROBLEM is NOT PRE-MADES. IT is the balancing.

The matchmaker launches uneven teams or if the teams are even as soon as one of the op mechs utilizing one of the listed issues above is destroyed the balance is broken and the team is rolled up and destroyed very quickly.

Add into this really new players trying the game for the first time playing against vets and you get a lot of phantom pre-mades.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kell Draygo, on 30 January 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Just depends on people's definition of fair. I'm sure some people believe fair only means having the same number of pilots on both sides. Some would equate fair to even skill level on both sides. Some would say it's even battle value on both sides or tonnage, etc.

Fair is an advantage that is available to if not all at least the majority of players. An Unfair advantage is my team having 8 players using Aimbots.

Unfair advantage is defined as:

Quote

Wrongful intent or unethical acts are generally implied in unfair advantage.

It is not unfair to drop against a group that was assembled at random. It may be unethical to try to drop as an 8man in the 4+4 que(I believe it is Unfair). Is it Unfair for me to use LRMs to destroy you when you came prepared to brawl? (Not in my understanding of a fight) Is it unfair to hide behind Lag shield knowingly? Yes it is. Is it unfair to use ECM? No. For a price anyone can buy it and even if you cannot, someone on your team will probably have it.

Dropping as a 4man on a que that actively allows up to 4 man teamed drops is not an UNfair advantage. Once this changes and PUGs are completely separated from groups of all sizes, dropping as a PreMade will then be an UNfair advantage.

Bringing a gun to a knife fight is an unfair advantage, bringing a knife to a gun fight is the blade man's fault.

[Dimento Graven]

Greyfyl, on 30 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

What you mean to say is: 'From where I'm standing playing at an advantage there is no problem here at all."

If there was 'no problem' why would PGI even bother with phase 3? I mean according to you everything is fine the way it is now. Imagine that.

You'll have to explain to me how playing the game NOT ACCORDING AS INTENDED, how there's an actual REAL problem, other than, you refuse to play as recommended, so you lose a lot.

Emphasis through repetition:

Quote

How does gameplay work?

MechWarrior Online puts MechWarriors into a first-person, team-based, tactical battlefield where the victors swim in the spoils of war and are rewarded with the almighty C-Bill (in-game currency).

Each team has 8 players and the two teams are pitted in combat in an enclosed battlefield. Communication is key, be it in-game chat, integrated C3, or a third party VOIP solution, keeping in constant communication with your teammates will drastically increase your team’s chances of success.

The various weight classes of BattleMechs help create their own evolving roles on the battlefield. Fast moving scouts can feed target and tactical information back to the main battle group and the team commander. This information allows the support and assault role pilots to decide where to put their resources to work. Long-range fire support and heavy hitting assault class Mechs will use this invaluable information to finish the job at hand. It is up to you, the pilot, to customize your BattleMech’s loadout and electronic systems to fulfill the role you want to take.

[Serapth]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

It is not unfair to drop against a group that was assembled at random. It may be unethical to try to drop as an 8man in the 4+4

Garth Erlam, on 29 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

I understand the vast majority of 4man groups are just doing it to play with their friends, but I think you also know, if in the back of your mind, you have an unfair advantage.

That is all.

[Lykaon]

Dr Killinger, on 29 January 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Shouldn't you rather be dropping into 8 mans? I mean, you have enough members, just curious as to why you're still doing 4 mans? I'm actually starting to think that a 4 man in itself is too much of an advantage to pit against a group of puggers.

I agree with OP 100%, and I really hope that matchmaking phase 3 fixes this.

Here is the thing about 8 man vs 8 man drops that most pugs do not comprehend (because frankly they have a very limited understanding of the bigger picture from ONLY pugging)

8 v 8 matches are rarely over quickly.Precise manuvers and counter moves occur in good 8 v 8 matches. I have even been in matches where we saw no enemy mechs for over 4 minutes.This of course means making fast c-bills is out if you want to 8 v 8 for money you are doing it wrong.Add to that the issue with off peak 8 man ques and you end up spending a lot of time failing to find matches and not playing.So 8 v 8 is no viable for quick c-bills.


In 8 v 8 matches you better bring your A game always.You are representing your team and have 7 other players depending on you to contribute effectivley.This of course means by and large 8 v 8 is much less casual and of course you can just forget about piloting a mech that isn't at least fully elite in the pilot lab and out right forget about experimenting with new builds or grinding off chassis (No one will pilot a raven 4X in 8 mans and contribute as much as they could have in a better chassis)

When a new member joins DHB there is a period of training that is neccissary to successfully intergrate a new player into an existing unit.I am sure most other units do this as well.This training is best done in a less intense enviorment like PuG matches provide example.

So if you enjoy team play with teammates using comms and you want to ...

Grind XP
Grind C-bills
Experiment with a new build
Just fly casual
practice new tactics
Train new Corp members/players

You will probably want to try 4 mans in Pug drops.

This is correct and proper use of in game features.All players should have identical access to all features.Because some do not wish to access the same features or play styles does not mean everyone must be complyant with the players who access the least even if those players are the majority.

[Bguk]

I guess the premade/pug war will never die. Sad.

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 30 January 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I guess the premade/pug war will never die. Sad.

Oh hopefully it will die, but it wont until some fairness is added to the game.

Balance premades across each team and most of the complaining goes away. Increase the sides to 12v12 and limit to maximum 4 man premades like WoT and things improve greatly.

While one side is getting screwed and the other is reaping the benefit, what exactly do you expect to happen? Shall we bend over, smile and plead that you use a bit more lube next time?

Lykaon, on 30 January 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Here is the thing about 8 man vs 8 man drops that most pugs do not comprehend (because frankly they have a very limited understanding of the bigger picture from ONLY pugging)

8 v 8 matches are rarely over quickly.Precise manuvers and counter moves occur in good 8 v 8 matches. I have even been in matches where we saw no enemy mechs for over 4 minutes.This of course means making fast c-bills is out if you want to 8 v 8 for money you are doing it wrong.Add to that the issue with off peak 8 man ques and you end up spending a lot of time failing to find matches and not playing.So 8 v 8 is no viable for quick c-bills.


In 8 v 8 matches you better bring your A game always.You are representing your team and have 7 other players depending on you to contribute effectivley.This of course means by and large 8 v 8 is much less casual and of course you can just forget about piloting a mech that isn't at least fully elite in the pilot lab and out right forget about experimenting with new builds or grinding off chassis (No one will pilot a raven 4X in 8 mans and contribute as much as they could have in a better chassis)

When a new member joins DHB there is a period of training that is neccissary to successfully intergrate a new player into an existing unit.I am sure most other units do this as well.This training is best done in a less intense enviorment like PuG matches provide example.

So if you enjoy team play with teammates using comms and you want to ...

Grind XP
Grind C-bills
Experiment with a new build
Just fly casual
practice new tactics
Train new Corp members/players

You will probably want to try 4 mans in Pug drops.

This is correct and proper use of in game features.All players should have identical access to all features.Because some do not wish to access the same features or play styles does not mean everyone must be complyant with the players who access the least even if those players are the majority.

Frankly, if the match maker simply put a premade on each team, the vast majority of PUGs wouldn't really give a damn why you are playing againsts PUGs instead of 8manning.

Plus, if you were guaranteed to face another premade when you dropped with pugs, it would actually be more valuable experience training for 8man matches.


Win. Win.

Everyone sees this, except pugstompers and sadly, PGI.

[Bguk]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Oh hopefully it will die, but it wont until some fairness is added to the game.

Balance premades across each team and most of the complaining goes away. Increase the sides to 12v12 and limit to maximum 4 man premades like WoT and things improve greatly.

While one side is getting screwed and the other is reaping the benefit, what exactly do you expect to happen? Shall we bend over, smile and plead that you use a bit more lube next time?

I think you need to go hug your child. No sarcasm. Hug him more and then type things out.

[B3RT]

PLEASE STOP...

Complaining about issues that are well known to everyone and have a set time table for completion by the developers.

see:

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/

for info on what they are doing to fix this problem and how long they think it will take.

Thank you.

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 30 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

I think you need to go hug your child. No sarcasm. Hug him more and then type things out.

Why, because I find this situation frustrating?

Of course I do. In most of these threads it's people with the advantage, telling the disadvantaged that everything is fine. More to the point, the pragmatic in me... the guy that replays MW4, BM and MW4:Mercs on an annual basis ( and doesn't really play all that many games beyond that ) realizes that MWO is pretty much the last hope I've got left for a solid MW game, so obviously I am invested in it, more so than most games.

That said, my emotional attachment to these forums ends when I put down the keyboard, trust me, if I let the frustration of this forum actually get to me... my god I would have a breakdown. This place is full of people that ... well frankly, make me feel pretty damned good about my daughters autism. Caustic is certainly a good word.

I do however enjoy a good debate, even if my opponents often have the IQ of a rotten turnip.

For the record, you aren't included in that list. You are actually a reasoning and well spoken individual, which is why you liking the posts of ... turnips ( ) actually does manage to draw me ire to a certain degree. Take that as a compliment.


Oh, and it's daughter, not son. And frankly, I play games to get away from her. I love her dearly, but my god, kids are exhausting.

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

That is all.

Isn't he also the guy who is trying to call Double Heat sinks Dual Heat sinks so we don't fixate on the 2x as good... even though Dual also means two of the same or like items? It isn't an Unfair advantage if it is available to all/ or most players. It is just an advantage. There is nothing unethical or wrong using something most opponents can use.

[Valcoer]

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 29 January 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

A very good friend of mine runs a gaming center, he has xbox's, ps3's and pc gaming systems, he also has a room out the back for table top gaming n stuff.

The reason for this post is to make the clan players aware of the damage they are doing to this game by doing 4 man sync drops so they are an 8 man group against pugs, you are making potentially new players turn away from this game and turn to other games, i have seen it with my own eyes. If you wish to be the only players of mwo then you are going in the right direction but i think the dev's might have something to say about it tho.

But seriously peeps, dont kill the game by massaging your ego's, yea its fun but this type of fun is all 1 sided and if it carries on i'm sure the games populous will dissolve only leaving behind the egotistic, statistic crazy, selfish arrogant players.

I have seen at least 20 people that play MW TT get excited about playing MWO then when they actually play its all good until they realise that pug grps are mixed with pre-mades and that in some games the opposition consists of pure pre-mades against pugs and their response to the game and the matchmaking is not very pleasant. So those that are doing this sync dropping thing please stop i would at least like to see this game get to public release, go find some other game to flex your ego.

Dr Killinger, on 29 January 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Shouldn't you rather be dropping into 8 mans? I mean, you have enough members, just curious as to why you're still doing 4 mans? I'm actually starting to think that a 4 man in itself is too much of an advantage to pit against a group of puggers.

I agree with OP 100%, and I really hope that matchmaking phase 3 fixes this.

GODzillaGSPB, on 29 January 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

The game knows when there are groups, doesn't it? It drops them together, so it should know it obviously. I think as long as there is just ONE full or partially full 4 man in a PUG match the game should simply show the players as it normally does. No changes.

But when two groups are in the game and in the same team, the scoreboard should show it. I'm not demanding any repercussions, just show them. Let's see if they continue their behavior for everyone to watch them do it.

Irvine, on 29 January 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

It is because 8mans are broken. D-DC turret wars. If it forced a 2-2-2-2 IMO it would go a long ways in helping. I don't do 8mans b/c I don't have and do not want to have the "required" setup in order to contribute. Idk bout y'all but 2x Lyran Scout Lance isnt too fun

Zylo, on 29 January 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

So why exactly are you trying to sync-drop?

You're still cheating in 30% of the games when you sync-drop on the same team.


I also call BS on your claims of seeing players on the other team in other drop channels to defend your sync-dropping by saying the other team has a 4-man so your sync-drop really isn't so bad...

first let me say that the last time I tried to sync drop it was in the twitch event.
I succeeded 2x very proud of that fact. once was on garth's team once was against it.
I have often dropped in a four man and both found myself on the same side as another four man and against another four man from house steiner. when we are loading up I see the names of the players if they are on our side I go join their com channel and we have an eight man pug. if they are on the other side I go and say good game to them after the match. nothing wrong with this we even sometimes tell the other side that we have an 8 man against them so they know what they are facing and can plan accordingly if they have the brains to work together but our coms will certainly give us an advantage that typing cant match.

I play eight man whenever I can because I prefer the challenge. 8 man is not broken tho I have noticed that I rarely get caustic valley when doing 8 man drops I suspect that is because people have removed it from their maps list on the other side but I cant prove it so I dont try (very hard) to make it an issue. however I am not on a dedicated 8 man team you could say we have a house pug (pick up group within the house) of whomever is available and willing. while many times the teams we are playing are dedicated 8 man teams that play exclusively with the same team mates. dedicated 8 man teams have a huge advantage over our 8 man house pugs no question about it but I dont suggest that dedicated 8 man teams be banned.

I have in many posts suggested that there needs to be a sand box of some sort that would allow new single players or teams to adjust to the competitive nature of this game and to practice both mech control and team skills in a manner that is not under fire from another team that does not care about who or what the other team is trying to accomplish. the addition of a global chat in the predrop interface would help to alleviate the problems discussed in this thread by allowing new players easier access to premade teams. those that choose intentionaly to drop as lone wolves and go their own way well they deserve to be creamed but I can relate to new players that have no idea how to get in a premade group, have no friends to add to a premade group, and / or have not found the team speak servers that are abundantly advertised in the forums.

sync dropping trully is not an issue worthy of a thread of this length. wether you are fighting two premade four man teams that have sync dropped on to the same team, two four man groups that randomly have dropped together on the same team, or some other combination of 8 players that have dropped to good effect the true issue is how to keep new players from feeling disenfranchised and not how to level a playing field in a war that is designed to be fought by companies of mechs not single mechs.

[Serapth]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Isn't he also the guy who is trying to call Double Heat sinks Dual Heat sinks so we don't fixate on the 2x as good... even though Dual also means two of the same or like items? It isn't an Unfair advantage if it is available to all/ or most players. It is just an advantage. There is nothing unethical or wrong using something most opponents can use.

Well, I believe he is the lead designer of the game.

Not really sure where the semantic argument comes from that you mentioned ( I missed it first time around I guess ), but dual and double should equate to the same thing when the base number is 1.

As is, 2x1 is the same as 1+1. So far as I know, the DHS argument is more the fact that DHS outside the engine arent doubled.

Granted, that is sending things down a terrible tangent.


On topic, the word of Garth, so far as PGI representatives go, is the second most authoritative voice on these forums... I believe anyways.

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Why, because I find this situation frustrating?

Of course I do. In most of these threads it's people with the advantage, telling the disadvantaged that everything is fine. More to the point, the pragmatic in me... the guy that replays MW4, BM and MW4:Mercs on an annual basis ( and doesn't really play all that many games beyond that ) realizes that MWO is pretty much the last hope I've got left for a solid MW game, so obviously I am invested in it, more so than most games.

That said, my emotional attachment to these forums ends when I put down the keyboard, trust me, if I let the frustration of this forum actually get to me... my god I would have a breakdown. This place is full of people that ... well frankly, make me feel pretty damned good about my daughters autism. Caustic is certainly a good word.

I do however enjoy a good debate, even if my opponents often have the IQ of a rotten turnip.

For the record, you aren't included in that list. You are actually a reasoning and well spoken individual, which is why you liking the posts of ... turnips ( ) actually does manage to draw me ire to a certain degree. Take that as a compliment.


Oh, and it's daughter, not son. And frankly, I play games to get away from her. I love her dearly, but my god, kids are exhausting.

I was only able to like this post... But I want you to know I love this post.The bold are things I have in common with you!

[Bguk]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Oh, and it's daughter, not son. And frankly, I play games to get away from her. I love her dearly, but my god, kids are exhausting.

Sounds fair enough. Apologies for calling she a he.

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Well, I believe he is the lead designer of the game.

Not really sure where the semantic argument comes from that you mentioned ( I missed it first time around I guess ), but dual and double should equate to the same thing when the base number is 1.

As is, 2x1 is the same as 1+1. So far as I know, the DHS argument is more the fact that DHS outside the engine arent doubled.

Granted, that is sending things down a terrible tangent.


On topic, the word of Garth, so far as PGI representatives go, is the second most authoritative voice on these forums... I believe anyways.

And still prone to making human mistakes. I looked up Unfair Advantage and the quote I am using is from the legal definition of Unfair Advantage.

[Dimento Graven]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Amazing how far the skillless will go to save their crutch while being too cowardly to face real competition in the form of 8 mans.

You know what else PGI stated... in this thread?

That premades due have an unfair advantage and are a bunch of cowardly peons, who have the ability to face proper competition but instead choose to abuse pugs.

Once again, does it even matter?

If premades are dropping and stomping by the simple fact they are premades and nothing more, this needs to be addressed, even if its only 25% of matches.

So, your excuse to not take the time to join a community, install FREE VOIP, and learn to play as a team, AS THE GAME WAS DESIGNED for, and has been stated in all descriptions of this game is that Garth, talking out his *** yet again, said it was an 'unfair' advantage.

Really...

The hard core, dedicated PUGs think they're SO good, that they should be able to beat any other 8 PUGs essentially by themselves, the other 7 people on their team being nothing but cannon fodder for them so that they can use their "l33t sk|11z" and get 8 kills so they can watch their epeen grow, EXCEPT, when they come across 2 or more enemies in a pre-made.

Nah, not buying it. Your deaths are due to the fact that you can't coordinate with the rest of your team as well as those who are playing the game intended. It's not an 'unfair' advantage because at any point in time you can also do exactly the same things as the premade are doing.

Nothing needs to be done to "hep dose poor widdle pugs" who occassionally get beat, not by other pugs, but by teams of people, PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

So, your excuse to not take the time to join a community, install FREE VOIP, and learn to play as a team, AS THE GAME WAS DESIGNED for, and has been stated in all descriptions of this game is that Garth, talking out his *** yet again, said it was an 'unfair' advantage.

Really...

No His reason for not doing this is He loves his daughter (& wife) more than this game, and she needs his attention more than 7 other people pretending to be gods gift to war!

Other than the member who is deaf. There is no better reason to avoid Headphones and a Mic than I love my family and they need me!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 January 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Serapth]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I was only able to like this post... But I want you to know I love this post.The bold are things I have in common with you!

I actually read your profile a while back.

Contrary to the fact I think you are wrong all the time... I do like you.

For the record, when I do make disparaging comments towards premades, especially in the context of asshats on these forums, I am not referring to you, or Murphy's Law from everything I have heard. Hell, I was almost to the point of "if you cant beat 'em, join 'em" and was going to reach out to you about joining Murphy's from everything I have heard.

Unfortunately, these is a demographic on incredibly vile people on these forums that are ruining the reputation of the rest of you premade folk.