455 replies to this topic

[Bryan Kerensky]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Oh hopefully it will die, but it wont until some fairness is added to the game.

Balance premades across each team and most of the complaining goes away. Increase the sides to 12v12 and limit to maximum 4 man premades like WoT and things improve greatly.

While one side is getting screwed and the other is reaping the benefit, what exactly do you expect to happen? Shall we bend over, smile and plead that you use a bit more lube next time?




Frankly, if the match maker simply put a premade on each team, the vast majority of PUGs wouldn't really give a damn why you are playing againsts PUGs instead of 8manning.

Plus, if you were guaranteed to face another premade when you dropped with pugs, it would actually be more valuable experience training for 8man matches.


Win. Win.

Everyone sees this, except pugstompers and sadly, PGI.

Fair point... I agree.

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I actually read your profile a while back.

Contrary to the fact I think you are wrong all the time... I do like you.

For the record, when I do make disparaging comments towards premades, especially in the context of asshats on these forums, I am not referring to you, or Murphy's Law from everything I have heard. Hell, I was almost to the point of "if you cant beat 'em, join 'em" and was going to reach out to you about joining Murphy's from everything I have heard.

Unfortunately, these is a demographic on incredibly vile people on these forums that are ruining the reputation of the rest of you premade folk.

I kinda read this in your responses.

I can't stand these people either.

[Serapth]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

So, your excuse to not take the time to join a community, install FREE VOIP, and learn to play as a team, AS THE GAME WAS DESIGNED for, and has been stated in all descriptions of this game is that Garth, talking out his *** yet again, said it was an 'unfair' advantage.

Really...

The hard core, dedicated PUGs think they're SO good, that they should be able to beat any other 8 PUGs essentially by themselves, the other 7 people on their team being nothing but cannon fodder for them so that they can use their "l33t sk|11z" and get 8 kills so they can watch their epeen grow, EXCEPT, when they come across 2 or more enemies in a pre-made.

Nah, not buying it. Your deaths are due to the fact that you can't coordinate with the rest of your team as well as those who are playing the game intended. It's not an 'unfair' advantage because at any point in time you can also do exactly the same things as the premade are doing.

Nothing needs to be done to "hep dose poor widdle pugs" who occassionally get beat, not by other pugs, but by teams of people, PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED.

I really couldn't give a damn about my KDR, I suppose that is my definition of casual in the end.

I do however care about skill, and games of skill. In such games I expect a fair match, with balanced game mechanics. Would you play a game of chess if the other player started with two queens?

Truth told, most of the time I think the game is doing OK, even with the current horrible matchmaker. It is only during evenings that it becomes... drudgery to play. I dont care if I lose, I care when I cant win. There is a massive difference there. There are match after match during the evenings where I am the best player on my team, often by a fair margin, and it is still a lopsided match.

More to the point, I care about the survival of this game. I am not stroking my e-peen, but I am not horrible at this game, but I tend to be substantially better than the people I am matched with, as evidenced by end of round scores. These people... their experiences have to be awful... and those people are the future of this game.

I dont want to change the way you play... I know there are going to be a hardcore core that want to dedicate hours to the game, and see that dedication rewarded. Hell, I want the game to cater to this demographic in the future.. I want to see tournaments, guild/corp vs guild/corp matches in the future.

For now though, in the state the game is in, I simply want them to balance the premades, who do get an advantage, across each side of the match.

[Dimento Graven]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

That is all.

I'm sorry, let's not 'cherry pick' that particular portion of the quote, let's instead include EVERYTHING he said on that paragraph:

Quote

So if nothing else, maybe invite a new player into your 4man and show him the ropes. Keep rotating people through every week. I understand the vast majority of 4man groups are just doing it to play with their friends, but I think you also know, if in the back of your mind, you have an unfair advantage. So help the newbies out and show them the ropes.

So apparently, Garth's quote was specific to the new player, not the hard core lone wolf who refuses for some reason to join a group.

Yes, if a NEW player identifies himself as a NEW player, most 'decent' minded folks will talk to him, make suggestions, maybe even invite them to view their merc's web site to see if they'd like to join, or at the very least refer them to one of the public VOIP servers and steer them there.

If a NEW player doesn't identify themselves as a NEW player, hard to help him out. Some of the more worthwhile people are those that think, "Why am I getting my *** kicked repeatedly? What am I doing wrong?" and then go to the MWO forums and do a bit of research. "Oh, there's pre-made teams? Cool! Let's go find one of those that I might like and see what I can do to improve my skill and find like minded friends to play with!"

"Oh wow!", says the NEW player after only a few moments on the form, "Look here! They have a forum DEDICATED to 'merc groups at http://mwomercs.com/...um/60-outreach/, NEAT! Isn't PGI a grand company looking out for their customer base like that!"

[Bryan Kerensky]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I dont want to change the way you play... I know there are going to be a hardcore core that want to dedicate hours to the game, and see that dedication rewarded. Hell, I want the game to cater to this demographic in the future.. I want to see tournaments, guild/corp vs guild/corp matches in the future.

The RHOD tourny is in the fourth week of matches. Depending on how the ELO system is implemented and how the competitive scene is managed, organized tournaments will be put on hold which may or may not cause an influx in the number of premades in the 4 man queue.

Speculation at best, but we should probably brace ourselves.

[Serapth]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I'm sorry, let's not 'cherry pick' that particular portion of the quote, let's instead include EVERYTHING he said on that paragraph:



So apparently, Garth's quote was specific to the new player, not the hard core lone wolf who refuses for some reason to join a group.

Yes, if a NEW player identifies himself as a NEW player, most 'decent' minded folks will talk to him, make suggestions, maybe even invite them to view their merc's web site to see if they'd like to join, or at the very least refer them to one of the public VOIP servers and steer them there.

If a NEW player doesn't identify themselves as a NEW player, hard to help him out. Some of the more worthwhile people are those that think, "Why am I getting my *** kicked repeatedly? What am I doing wrong?" and then go to the MWO forums and do a bit of research. "Oh, there's pre-made teams? Cool! Let's go find one of those that I might like and see what I can do to improve my skill and find like minded friends to play with!"

"Oh wow!", says the NEW player after only a few moments on the form, "Look here! They have a forum DEDICATED to 'merc groups at http://mwomercs.com/...um/60-outreach/, NEAT! Isn't PGI a grand company looking out for their customer base like that!"

I am curious if you realize that pretty much everyone one of your posts basically translates to

"If you want to enjoy the game, play like me".

You seem unable, or perhaps, unwilling, to realize a large percentage of the community ( the majority according to both polls done here and discussions with PGI ) do not want this, for a variety of reasons?

[Joseph Mallan]

Bryan Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

The RHOD tourny is in the fourth week of matches. Depending on how the ELO system is implemented and how the competitive scene is managed, organized tournaments will be put on hold which may or may not cause an influx in the number of premades in the 4 man queue.

Speculation at best, but we should probably brace ourselves.

Oh My!

[Zolaz]

The problem is that you expect people to not act in their own self interest as they see it. Would you stop putting gas in your car to stop global warming? Would you invite a family of homeless people to come stay with you? Professional athletes use drugs, human growth hormone and anything else they can think of to gain an edge over the competition.

Competitive gamers will do the exact same thing. Im also pretty sure that PGI will fix this problem. An ELO system,a more robust Match Maker and more options for game play will make you happy. The only problem is that you will have to wait a bit. I dont think the sky is falling.

Get better, get in a group, master your mechs. Expect people to want to play together in a team game.

[Bryan Kerensky]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Oh My!

By that I mean brace yourselves for another wave of complaints. As it is the 8man queue is taking a beating due to the fact that unless, you are scrimming another team, there is a high chance you will meet up with Atlas totting teams or a light mech bonanza causing some premade teams to get a little tired of it.

The matchmaker fix is needed as much in the 4man/solo queue as the 8man one.

Sorry if my earlier comment somehow seemed out of place.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yes Zolaz but at what point does it become Unfair? My position is that a four man in the random que is not unfair on grounds that most players can use the advantage if they want to. Trying to drop as a full 8 man in the random Que is Unfair.

[Serapth]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Yes Zolaz but at what point does it become Unfair? My position is that a four man in the random que is not unfair on grounds that most players can use the advantage if they want to. Trying to drop as a full 8 man in the random Que is Unfair.

Once ELO drops, this will certainly be more true. As it stands right now, even eliminating 4 spots of randomness is a huge advantage, especially in the face that trial mechs and newbies are tossed in the same queue as everyone else.

As to how much of an advantage comms make, we wont know until ELO, then C3 are implemented.

Once ELO and C3 are in the game, then it becomes a wash. But ive become cynical enough to believe that is a long long long ways way.

[Dimento Graven]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I really couldn't give a damn about my KDR, I suppose that is my definition of casual in the end.

I do however care about skill, and games of skill. In such games I expect a fair match, with balanced game mechanics. Would you play a game of chess if the other player started with two queens?

Actually I was taught to play chess without my queen, knights, or rooks. The person (my father) teaching me wouldn't let me play until I could survive 50 moves without them, so...

But, in this case, go get your "other queen", join a merc group, get VOIP, and play at the game as it has been intended.

Quote

Truth told, most of the time I think the game is doing OK, even with the current horrible matchmaker. It is only during evenings that it becomes... drudgery to play. I dont care if I lose, I care when I cant win. There is a massive difference there. There are match after match during the evenings where I am the best player on my team, often by a fair margin, and it is still a lopsided match.

So you're saying in the evenings you do nothing but lose to what you believe are pre-made. I make that distinction because, unless the pre-mades ADVERTISE themselves, you don't really know WHO or HOW MANY pre-mades there are. Considering that if you're playing during the day, that's typically when most of the US base players are at work or school. In the evenings, when we off work and out of school we come on and play. Isn't it possible for the sake of argument that during the day when the game is "not" a drudgery, that in fact the LESS THAN BEST players, OR, the players with the highest ping rates (read: NOT NORTH AMERICAN based) are online and in the evenings all the BEST players and/or players with the LOWEST ping rates are now online and in fact, THAT is the actual cause of your 'drudgery' NOT that it's pre-mades but in fact you're just facing a higher quality of PUG?

Every time you lose, do you see anyone stating you got beat by such-and-such merc group/clan?

I've only seen that a handfull times, usually AFTER I've advertised my merc group. So I doubt you're seeing anything like that.

Your issue is based off your assumption it's pre-mades, not on any actual known fact.

Quote

More to the point, I care about the survival of this game. I am not stroking my e-peen, but I am not horrible at this game, but I tend to be substantially better than the people I am matched with, as evidenced by end of round scores. These people... their experiences have to be awful... and those people are the future of this game.

I kind of doubt you're being all that altruistic, otherwise, step up to the plate as Garth suggests and invite newbs to group with you in pre-mades. Apparently, it's assumed those that play in pre-mades are the trainers/nurse maids/baby sitters of newbs...

So step up as Garth says:

Quote

So help the newbies out and show them the ropes.

Quote

I dont want to change the way you play... I know there are going to be a hardcore core that want to dedicate hours to the game, and see that dedication rewarded. Hell, I want the game to cater to this demographic in the future.. I want to see tournaments, guild/corp vs guild/corp matches in the future.

Yes you do. You don't want me to be in a pre-made, or use VOIP. I've seen nothing in these arguments, but for a few exceptions, that provide any alternative that allows me to play the way I like to, having a choice of pug'ing or grouping with friends, and allows you to play the way you apparently want, only against the worst of the other pugs.

Quote

For now though, in the state the game is in, I simply want them to balance the premades, who do get an advantage, across each side of the match.

Then what, after you're still losing at a painfull rate? With the QQ be on ping rates? We should only allow players of the same ping rate play against each other?

What's next?

[roflplanes]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I am curious if you realize that pretty much everyone one of your posts basically translates to

"If you want to enjoy the game, play like me".

You seem unable, or perhaps, unwilling, to realize a large percentage of the community ( the majority according to both polls done here and discussions with PGI ) do not want this, for a variety of reasons?

And your posts all boil down to

"So *I* can enjoy the game, I need all of you to play like ME. On MY level. So *I* can have fun playing MY way."

Simply childish.

[Serapth]

roflplanes, on 30 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

And your posts all boil down to

"So *I* can enjoy the game, I need all of you to play like ME. On MY level. So *I* can have fun playing MY way."

Simply childish.

Actually 95% of my posts boil down to

"Why cant they simply balance a premade on each side"

So then... why? Or you just going to go ahead with an ad hominem attack? This doesn't change a single thing about your game, other than curbing pug stomping.


Oh, and I suppose -1 towards my thoughts towards Murphy's Law. Too bad that.

Edited by Serapth, 30 January 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I am curious if you realize that pretty much everyone one of your posts basically translates to

"If you want to enjoy the game, play like me".

You seem unable, or perhaps, unwilling, to realize a large percentage of the community ( the majority according to both polls done here and discussions with PGI ) do not want this, for a variety of reasons?

No, your translation skills have done you wrong, though you were close. What you should have gotten out of it was:

"If you want to enjoy the game to it's fullest, play it as intended."

Again, from http://mwomercs.com/game

Quote

How does gameplay work?

MechWarrior Online puts MechWarriors into a first-person, team-based, tactical battlefield where the victors swim in the spoils of war and are rewarded with the almighty C-Bill (in-game currency).

Each team has 8 players and the two teams are pitted in combat in an enclosed battlefield. Communication is key, be it in-game chat, integrated C3, or a third party VOIP solution, keeping in constant communication with your teammates will drastically increase your team’s chances of success.

The various weight classes of BattleMechs help create their own evolving roles on the battlefield. Fast moving scouts can feed target and tactical information back to the main battle group and the team commander. This information allows the support and assault role pilots to decide where to put their resources to work. Long-range fire support and heavy hitting assault class Mechs will use this invaluable information to finish the job at hand. It is up to you, the pilot, to customize your BattleMech’s loadout and electronic systems to fulfill the role you want to take.

I realize that there is "some portion" (we can debate all day as to how big it is, because either the PUGs are so large in number that PGI shouldn't care about pre-mades, but then that would call into question the whole premise of your complaint, OR, pre-mades are of such number, that really, the hardcore PUGs should reconsider their position and maybe play the game as intended) of the player base are hard core dedicated PUGs, and of those, there is some number that are being very noisy about not being able to do as well while not playing the game as intended.

Those people, I don't care about 'em, I just want 'em to stop crying...

[Bguk]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Actually 95% of my posts boil down to

"Why cant they simply balance a premade on each side"

So then... why? Or you just going to go ahead with an ad hominem attack? This doesn't change a single thing about your game, other than curbing pug stomping.

Oh, and I suppose -1 towards my thoughts towards Murphy's Law. Too bad that.

The majority of your posts do state that, yes. They also contain the evil premade boogeyman beat you more often than not(not so much lately, thank you Garth). You perpetuated that boogeyman.

On the attack, let's not get all sanctimonious here, pot/kettle et al.

[Serapth]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Actually I was taught to play chess without my queen, knights, or rooks. The person (my father) teaching me wouldn't let me play until I could survive 50 moves without them, so...

.... that, is disturbing. Explains a lot though.

Quote

Yes you do. You don't want me to be in a pre-made, or use VOIP. I've seen nothing in these arguments, but for a few exceptions, that provide any alternative that allows me to play the way I like to, having a choice of pug'ing or grouping with friends, and allows you to play the way you apparently want, only against the worst of the other pugs.

Please... cite a source please. I've been pretty damned consistent in my request, even people "on your side" will agree with this. I want premades balanced across each side of a group, nothing more. Considering I have said this again, and again and again, I cant help but assume you simple aren't listening, or are only hearing what you want to hear.

Bguk, on 30 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

The majority of your posts do state that, yes. They also contain the evil premade boogeyman beat you more often than not(not so much lately, thank you Garth). You perpetuated that boogeyman.

On the attack, let's not get all sanctimonious here, pot/kettle et al.

My request/argument, is remarkably consistent.

My tolerance level or to put it in less polite terms, degree of pissyness varies from post to post.

To once again beat that dead horse, boogeyman's a loaded term that I am unwilling to cede. This is where the fundamental divide between you and I come in. You think something is so uncommon as to be insignificant... thus a boogeyman. I obviously disagree, either with the amount that it happens, or the amount of times it needs to happen/not happen before becoming insignificant.

Edited by Serapth, 30 January 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

Edited by Cuthbert Allgood, 30 January 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

.... that, is disturbing. Explains a lot though.

I don't think so, I think it's a great way to teach basic movement and strategy for a very complex game by eliminating some of the complication on my side, allowing me to focus on the movements of only 3 types of pieces vs. 6. Kind of like training wheels, only in reverse.

Quote

Please... cite a source please. I've been pretty damned consistent in my request, even people "on your side" will agree with this. I want premades balanced across each side of a group, nothing more. Considering I have said this again, and again and again, I cant help but assume you simple aren't listening, or are only hearing what you want to hear.

All right, granted on that point, I was carefull to make sure and include the words, "...but for a few exceptions..." because I knew that there were a few suggestions here and there that were along actual usable working solutions.

I totally agree that, that, would be a great thing for PGI to try and implement, and let's say that PGI agrees, and decides to do it.

Between now, and let's be optimistic, the next 8 weeks of development and testing before it's released to us, what are you and the other dedicated pugs going to do?

My recommendation: Play the game as intended.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Serapth, you and the others who are so vocal about this non-existant problem(see PGI's on remarks on it!) seem to think that ALL pubbies feel the exact same way and that new players are being driven away from this game due to getting stomped on by premade teams.

First, as already pointed out multiple times, premades aren't doing the pubbie stomping, it's more pubbies. So that kind of destroys that whole stance about premades being the issue due to the simple fact that they aren't.

Second, who tells these new players that a premade just stomped them? I know when I look at the teams, I can't tell you who's in a premade and who isn't, there's nothing at all to indicate this status. Or do you just look for the Founders tags and automagically make them into a premade? That is rather amusing, my own tag isn't shown, I got tired of the BS from whiners claiming I was in a premade when I was dropping solo just because I had that tag. You see me in a game prior to 10pm Central Time, I'm probably dropping by myself, no premade, as most of the rest of SRM live further west then I do and get on later in the evening for me. When my side loses in these situations, I do NOT automagically assume it was a premade that was the cause, I look at what I did or didn't do and what my teammates did or didn't do and assign the blame where it belongs, me and the team, WE screwed up and didn't do things right, obviously, as we lost and when you do things right, you don't lose.

I know, it's hard to admit you aren't any good at something you love, but there's no shame in admitting that you aren't the god of MechWarrior when you aren't. And further, there's no shame in not being able to carry 7 other random people in a TEAM based game that doesn't allow you to do that in the first place...unless the 8 people you are facing aren't people but AI controlled targets, then you should be able to carry the team, but alas, we're talking about MWO and the odds of facing a team of AI is pretty low..I won't discount it totally because..well...I've talked with some of the pubbies, I have created scripts with more personality so...

See Serapth, you and others seem to think you should be able to single handedly win any round you drop in, you show this clearly when you complain about doing more damage then anyone else on your team but still being unable to win. Herein lies the problem because, and this is a big deal here, MWO is not designed to let you single handedly win any round you drop in. This is NOT CoD or BFBC on the console, you can't Rambo your way to victory. You really do need to have team work, regardless of communication, team work is a must if you want victory. You don't need to join a unit, you don't need to get on voice comms, you don't even need to learn to type, you just need to learn to watch your teammates and support them, because if you won't communicate, then you are limited in what you can do and supporting your teammates is pretty damn easy. This is obviously a problem for some of you, since you claim that premades are ruining the game and they are the reason you can't win. What do premades have that you don't? Teamwork. As others have stated, I can sit on TS with my teammates and we won't discuss the game at all while we're blazing away at targets, we're bsing about work, talking about our kids(or my grandkids), the SO, the weather..hell last night we were talking about that guy in Alabama who shot the bus driver while we were dropping, trying to find updated info on that story for the few hours we were playing, oh yeah, we're calling out..news flashes..not targets. But we can type just fine ingame, Y key, team chat, amazing teamwork tool, included in the game no less, no need to d/l anything or learn how to use some other piece of software, just hit Y and type! Or, you know, you could hit B, assume command, and give orders via the Combat Map..just saying...

Sorry Serapth, but I ain't buying it, lack of ability to Rambo your way to victory doesn't make for a broken game, nor does it mean that premades are the problem, it means that YOU don't really grasp that this is NOT MW4, you are NOT playing against a really dumb AI, and you will lose due thinking that.

And I do agree that putting premades on both sides would be good, but that still won't change a damn thing, you will still lose just as often as you do now, that is due to YOU wanting to play something that MWO isn't, a solo game where you can be Rambo in the movies, not Rambo in the book(he died).

Oh, just in case you missed it(evidently you did), phase 3 match making..it will mix premades and pubs together to reach 12 v 12, and it won't matter if you are a 2 man or an 11 man, it'll grab pubs to fill out your side then match you against another group of 12 composed of whatever mix of pre and pubs the MM deems appropiate. So the premade and pubbies mixing issue, it's not one, not according to PGI at least, because they just made clear in the AtD30 how this will work.