455 replies to this topic

[Greyfyl]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Have you read what phase 3 does? The inclusion of 12v12, matching premades with and against pubbies, ranking system to try and balance out who's facing who so the matches are possibly more 'fair'. You only saw that last bit huh..ranking system and fair..that's what you got from phase 3 and you totally missed the rest.

You see, PGI has actually looked at the numbers, unlike you Grey, and they know exactly how badly the premades are bending the pubbies over, so badly that it's not happening enough to be an actual issue by any measure, so badly that they are going to continue letting premades and pubbies face each other in phase 3. Yeah, the problem with premades roflstomping pubbies is SO bad that it doesn't actually exist and hasn't existed all along, at least, that's what the actual data from the servers is showing according to PGI.

Let me guess..PGI is lying...

You know what, I tried having a civil debate with you on the issue. Yes, of course I have looked at what has been posted about phase 3. I have yet to read that there won't be any situations where one team has a premade and the other doesn't. Maybe I missed that, and you know what I really don't care anymore. People like you are convinced you are playing the game the 'right way' whatever the hell that means and you will defend to your last breath the ability to play on an uneven playing field because that is what you have become accustomed to.

You need to go back and look at Garth's post again, because he was bashing on the premade players just as much if not more than he was bashing on the 'oh no I lost - it must have been a sync drop' crowd.

I don't remember Garth posting any NUMBERS that showed one way or another what percentage of US primetime matches include a premade on just one team. Point them out to me, I would like to see them.

And one last time for you since you obviously can't freaking read any better than a 1st grader. I don't have a problem at all with pugs facing premades, as long as both teams have premades and are filled out with pugs. Putting premades on one team only is what I have an issue with - it makes no sense at all from a balancing standpoint. If you can't understand this basic concept then you really are a simpleton.

I end this by saying again, I premade more than I pug at this point. Get Garth to show you the numbers if you will. I am asking for the mode that I most play to be nerfed. So get off your damn high horse, grow some balls, and play the game on a level playing field.

Edited by Greyfyl, 30 January 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I'm sorry, let's not 'cherry pick' that particular portion of the quote, let's instead include EVERYTHING he said on that paragraph:

So apparently, Garth's quote was specific to the new player, not the hard core lone wolf who refuses for some reason to join a group.

So what did you do? You made a whole post based upon cherry picking 'new player'.

Good job.

[Dimento Graven]

Greyfyl, on 30 January 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

You know what, I tried having a civil debate with you on the issue. Yes, of course I have looked at what has been posted about phase 3. I have yet to read that there won't be any situations where one team has a premade and the other doesn't. Maybe I missed that, and you know what I really don't care anymore. People like you are convinced you are playing the game the 'right way' whatever the hell that means and you will defend to your last breath the ability to play on an uneven playing field because that is what you have become accustomed to.

You need to go back and look at Garth's post again, because he was bashing on the premade players just as much if not more than he was bashing on the 'oh no I lost - it must have been a sync drop' crowd.

I don't remember Garth posting any NUMBERS that showed one way or another what percentage of US primetime matches include a premade on just one team. Point them out to me, I would like to see them.

And one last time for you since you obviously can't freaking read any better than a 1st grader. I don't have a problem at all with pugs facing premades, as long as both teams have premades and are filled out with pugs. Putting premades on one team only is what I have an issue with - it makes no sense at all from a balancing standpoint. If you can't understand this basic concept then you really are a simpleton.

I end this by saying again, I premade more than I pug at this point. Get Garth to show you the numbers if you will. I am asking for the mode that I most play to be nerfed. So get off your damn high horse, grow some balls, and play the game on a level playing field.

Actually go reread ALL of Garth's post, never mind, I'll post the relevant portion where he supposed 'bashes' pre-mades:

Garth Erlam said:

on 29 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

The ELO in matchmaking phase 3 should help with to start - everyone being matched against similar skilled opponents will be a good start. Also, we'll keep adding to it as time goes on and we see what needs to be done/changed/added/etc. Also, while I do agree with you it's very sad when larger corps/clans will run 4 mans to intentionally beat up on newer players. It sucks, but maybe the fact we can see them doing it will change their mind, I dunno. People often talk a big game and then realise what it entails, and well...

On the other hand though, virtually every post about a 'loss' here claims it was against a premade - but when I check the logs, I find it wasn't (and if it was, it was a pair or friends or something.)

To sum though, I challenge those who do drop in 4mans to try solo dropping for awhile. See how the other side lives. Yes you'll RUN back to TS3 when you're done, sure, but I hope you also see why they complain about it. Being in a 4man doesn't guarantee a win, just like being a lone wolf doesn't guarantee you'll lose. However, a 4man guarantees that team DOES NOT have four new players, and makes it more likely the opposing teams will.

So if nothing else, maybe invite a new player into your 4man and show him the ropes. Keep rotating people through every week. I understand the vast majority of 4man groups are just doing it to play with their friends, but I think you also know, if in the back of your mind, you have an unfair advantage. So help the newbies out and show them the ropes.

So... Either EVERY pug is a newbie, or he's just referring to the NEW player experience, and how pre-mades might stomp a group of newbs, which, pre-made or not, you put in a group of brand new players into this game and put any number of pre-made or dedicate pugs who've been playing more than a few weeks, and it's going to be a sever stomp, period.

Now, I think Garth talks out his *** when he states that pre-mades are dropping in 4-man groups to stomp new players intentionally. No. We're just playing the game as intended and some NEW players are getting caught in the cross file, that includes experience pug and pre-made.

So in light of the ACTUAL post, given its entire content and context, I think reality boils down to:

NEW PLAYER pug vs. OLD pug = stomp
NEW PLAYER pug vs. pre-made = stomp
OLD pug vs. pre-made = ???

Edited by Dimento Graven, 30 January 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Thirdstar]

Greyfyl, on 30 January 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

I end this by saying again, I premade more than I pug at this point. Get Garth to show you the numbers if you will. I am asking for the mode that I most play to be nerfed. So get off your damn high horse, grow some balls, and play the game on a level playing field.

I hate being proved right sometimes. Major negative points to Garth for this......again.

[Greyfyl]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

And I do agree that putting premades on both sides would be good, but that still won't change a damn thing, you will still lose just as often as you do now, that is due to YOU wanting to play something that MWO isn't, a solo game where you can be Rambo in the movies, not Rambo in the book(he died).

Freaking hilarious, that whole long post full of nothing but drivel. But this portion is a keeper. You just agreed that what most of us are asking for is a good idea. The fact that you then state that it wouldn't change a damn thing just contradicts the fact that you said it would be good.

From Garth:

"To sum though, I challenge those who do drop in 4mans to try solo dropping for awhile. See how the other side lives. Yes you'll RUN back to TS3 when you're done, sure, but I hope you also see why they complain about it."

It sure sounds to me like he's admitting at the very least that he understands where the complaints are coming from. I'm sure you and your team of lawyers won't see it that way, but the post he made very much admits that this is an issue for PGI. You don't want it to be an issue, but it is.

[Dimento Graven]

Greyfyl, on 30 January 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

So what did you do? You made a whole post based upon cherry picking 'new player'.

Good job.

<sigh> Lord give me strength to deal with the obstinantly ignorant:

Quote

on 29 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

The ELO in matchmaking phase 3 should help with to start - everyone being matched against similar skilled opponents will be a good start. Also, we'll keep adding to it as time goes on and we see what needs to be done/changed/added/etc. Also, while I do agree with you it's very sad when larger corps/clans will run 4 mans to intentionally beat up on newer players. It sucks, but maybe the fact we can see them doing it will change their mind, I dunno. People often talk a big game and then realise what it entails, and well...

On the other hand though, virtually every post about a 'loss' here claims it was against a premade - but when I check the logs, I find it wasn't (and if it was, it was a pair or friends or something.)

To sum though, I challenge those who do drop in 4mans to try solo dropping for awhile. See how the other side lives. Yes you'll RUN back to TS3 when you're done, sure, but I hope you also see why they complain about it. Being in a 4man doesn't guarantee a win, just like being a lone wolf doesn't guarantee you'll lose. However, a 4man guarantees that team DOES NOT have four new players, and makes it more likely the opposing teams will.

So if nothing else, maybe invite a new player into your 4man and show him the ropes. Keep rotating people through every week. I understand the vast majority of 4man groups are just doing it to play with their friends, but I think you also know, if in the back of your mind, you have an unfair advantage. So help the newbies out and show them the ropes.

He mentions NEW players 4 times, but doesn't mention experienced pugs once.

You tell ME what his post was ACTUALLY about, and how so many are taking his words OUT OF CONTEXT to attempt to prove that PGI believes the experienced pugs have it oh so bad?!?!

[Kristov Kerensky]

Actually Grey, I drop solo a lot more then I drop in a premade, rather funny that you tell me you drop in premades now and that I should grow a pair and play on a level playing field. As someone that actually does drop more solo than in a premade, I'm fully aware that I am NOT getting roflstomped by premades all the times, probably because I don't get roflstomped all the time? And the times I do get roflstomped, I can look at what I and the other 7 guys on my team did and go 'oh, that's it, right there, that's where the canine got molested!' and put the blame right where it belongs, me and the others on my team, WE screwed up and that's how you lose, cause if you do everything right, that canine stays pristine and you win.

See, it's called personal responsibility, I know, totally unfathomable concept for some people, but basically, it means that if things go wrong, it's probably my fault, cause if I had done the right thing, it wouldn't have happened. For a team, same thing, only it's OUR fault, not just mine, cause there's multiple people who all share the responsibility for things going right/wrong. Sports teach you this as does military training, if you've done neither, it's possible, especially in this day and age, that you have no idea what I'm talking about as it's not something that most cultures seem to like these days, it's ALWAYS someone ELSE that's at fault, it's never mine! Corporations, schools, lawyers, politicians, religious leaders, even celebrities use this fallacious logic all the time, it's everywhere, so it's really no surprise to see it here. Sad, but not a surprise.

I'm all for them putting premades on both sides, said that many times over, but it won't change a damn thing and we all know it, people will STILL blame others for their misfortune, they'll never accept that it's them that is at fault. What do you want to bet that if MM3 has full balanced premades on both teams that we'll see just as much QQ as we do right now about this exact same subject? I'll even give you good odds..but I must admit, I'm cheating, I know it'll be the same because it's been the same since closed beta when we couldn't even do teams..yeah..funny huh?

[Thirdstar]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

<sigh> Lord give me strength to deal with the obstinantly ignorant:

Oh that's rich. Bet the irony is lost on you. Oh well.

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

WE screwed up and that's how you lose, cause if you do everything right, that canine stays pristine and you win.

Oh that post had me laughing for ages.

Like reading something on FB written by the crazier family I have in the states. Thank you good Sir for the laugh.

Edited by Thirdstar, 30 January 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Actually go reread ALL of Garth's post, never mind, I'll post the relevant portion where he supposed 'bashes' pre-mades:


So... Either EVERY pug is a newbie, or he's just referring to the NEW player experience, and how pre-mades might stomp a group of newbs, which, pre-made or not, you put in a group of brand new players into this game and put any number of pre-made or dedicate pugs who've been playing more than a few weeks, and it's going to be a sever stomp, period.

Now, I think Garth talks out his *** when he states that pre-mades are dropping in 4-man groups to stomp new players intentionally. No. We're just playing the game as intended and some NEW players are getting caught in the cross file, that includes experience pug and pre-made.

So in light of the ACTUAL post, given its entire content and context, I think reality boils down to:

NEW PLAYER pug vs. OLD pug = stomp
NEW PLAYER pug vs. pre-made = stomp
OLD pug vs. pre-made = ???

OMG - how can this many people be this dense. Of course the new players in the pug queue are the issue. Freaking duh. When I'm pugging and get thrown into a match with 7 players that don't even know how to group their weapon yet of course I'm going to lose regardless of whether the other team is a premade or not (unless by some favor of the gods my opponents are actually 8 players still in trial mechs).


"However, a 4man guarantees that team DOES NOT have four new players, and makes it more likely the opposing teams will."

Funny how you just skipped over this whole part since your post was mainly focused on the 'new player' issue.

I also love how you state that Garth is talking out his *** them moment he even thinks to bash the premade players who are 'playing the game the way it's meant to be played'.

You know, one more thing. How many times do you guys seriously think Garth has read a post and then pulled that players game log to see if he was facing premades? I'm sure he's done it here and there, but I pray to god he's not taking the time to look at things like that on a regular basis, and I highly doubt that he is.

[Bryan Kerensky]

Greyfyl, on 30 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

"However, a 4man guarantees that team DOES NOT have four new players, and makes it more likely the opposing teams will."

I would just like to add that this may not always be the case. It is likely that there might be one or two experienced players in that group coupled along with 2 or 3 newer players. This is from my experience helping out new members by giving them instructions and also actively answering their questions on voice chat. It gives me a good idea on their train of thought as well as their performance in battle and helps develop tactical thinking.

New players who would like active consultation on their playing should join a Merc Corp or join the education center on the MWO NA TS server or the various rooms available on the NGNG server. It would be easier to remedy problems when there is another person watching you and telling you what is wrong.

[Thirdstar]

Greyfyl, on 30 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

OMG - how can this many people be this dense. Of course the new players in the pug queue are the issue. Freaking duh. When I'm pugging and get thrown into a match with 7 players that don't even know how to group their weapon yet of course I'm going to lose regardless of whether the other team is a premade or not (unless by some favor of the gods my opponents are actually 8 players still in trial mechs).

You Sir are WRONG! I don't understand why you won't take personal responsibility for the other 7 randoms on your team. Damn, kids these days with your Corporations, schools, lawyers, politicians, religious leaders, even celebrities. Make me wanna puke. Degenerates ALL of you.

Greyfyl, on 30 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

You know, one more thing. How many times do you guys seriously think Garth has read a post and then pulled that players game log to see if he was facing premades? I'm sure he's done it here and there, but I pray to god he's not taking the time to look at things like that on a regular basis, and I highly doubt that he is.

Too late now. Genie's out of the bottle. Expect this 'factoid' to be trotted out regularly from now on, despite my concerns about its veracity upthread.

Edited by Thirdstar, 30 January 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Serapth]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Serapth, you and the others who are so vocal about this non-existant problem(see PGI's on remarks on it!) seem to think that ALL pubbies feel the exact same way and that new players are being driven away from this game due to getting stomped on by premade teams.

First, as already pointed out multiple times, premades aren't doing the pubbie stomping, it's more pubbies. So that kind of destroys that whole stance about premades being the issue due to the simple fact that they aren't.

Second, who tells these new players that a premade just stomped them? I know when I look at the teams, I can't tell you who's in a premade and who isn't, there's nothing at all to indicate this status. Or do you just look for the Founders tags and automagically make them into a premade? That is rather amusing, my own tag isn't shown, I got tired of the BS from whiners claiming I was in a premade when I was dropping solo just because I had that tag. You see me in a game prior to 10pm Central Time, I'm probably dropping by myself, no premade, as most of the rest of SRM live further west then I do and get on later in the evening for me. When my side loses in these situations, I do NOT automagically assume it was a premade that was the cause, I look at what I did or didn't do and what my teammates did or didn't do and assign the blame where it belongs, me and the team, WE screwed up and didn't do things right, obviously, as we lost and when you do things right, you don't lose.

I know, it's hard to admit you aren't any good at something you love, but there's no shame in admitting that you aren't the god of MechWarrior when you aren't. And further, there's no shame in not being able to carry 7 other random people in a TEAM based game that doesn't allow you to do that in the first place...unless the 8 people you are facing aren't people but AI controlled targets, then you should be able to carry the team, but alas, we're talking about MWO and the odds of facing a team of AI is pretty low..I won't discount it totally because..well...I've talked with some of the pubbies, I have created scripts with more personality so...

See Serapth, you and others seem to think you should be able to single handedly win any round you drop in, you show this clearly when you complain about doing more damage then anyone else on your team but still being unable to win. Herein lies the problem because, and this is a big deal here, MWO is not designed to let you single handedly win any round you drop in. This is NOT CoD or BFBC on the console, you can't Rambo your way to victory. You really do need to have team work, regardless of communication, team work is a must if you want victory. You don't need to join a unit, you don't need to get on voice comms, you don't even need to learn to type, you just need to learn to watch your teammates and support them, because if you won't communicate, then you are limited in what you can do and supporting your teammates is pretty damn easy. This is obviously a problem for some of you, since you claim that premades are ruining the game and they are the reason you can't win. What do premades have that you don't? Teamwork. As others have stated, I can sit on TS with my teammates and we won't discuss the game at all while we're blazing away at targets, we're bsing about work, talking about our kids(or my grandkids), the SO, the weather..hell last night we were talking about that guy in Alabama who shot the bus driver while we were dropping, trying to find updated info on that story for the few hours we were playing, oh yeah, we're calling out..news flashes..not targets. But we can type just fine ingame, Y key, team chat, amazing teamwork tool, included in the game no less, no need to d/l anything or learn how to use some other piece of software, just hit Y and type! Or, you know, you could hit B, assume command, and give orders via the Combat Map..just saying...

Sorry Serapth, but I ain't buying it, lack of ability to Rambo your way to victory doesn't make for a broken game, nor does it mean that premades are the problem, it means that YOU don't really grasp that this is NOT MW4, you are NOT playing against a really dumb AI, and you will lose due thinking that.

And I do agree that putting premades on both sides would be good, but that still won't change a damn thing, you will still lose just as often as you do now, that is due to YOU wanting to play something that MWO isn't, a solo game where you can be Rambo in the movies, not Rambo in the book(he died).

Oh, just in case you missed it(evidently you did), phase 3 match making..it will mix premades and pubs together to reach 12 v 12, and it won't matter if you are a 2 man or an 11 man, it'll grab pubs to fill out your side then match you against another group of 12 composed of whatever mix of pre and pubs the MM deems appropiate. So the premade and pubbies mixing issue, it's not one, not according to PGI at least, because they just made clear in the AtD30 how this will work.

... just so I can get the measure of the community....


Does anyone, on either side of the argument, think this post is worth responding to?

[Thirdstar]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

... just so I can get the measure of the community....


Does anyone, on either side of the argument, think this post is worth responding to?

I wouldn't get my hopes up if I was you.

[Dimento Graven]

Serapth, on 30 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

... just so I can get the measure of the community....


Does anyone, on either side of the argument, think this post is worth responding to?

I love the debate.

[Thirdstar]

Dimento Graven, on 30 January 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

I love the debate.

There's no debate in that wall of rant. Just TONS of ad hominem attacks and barely coherent frothing.

Like reading the politics threads on FARK.

Edited by Thirdstar, 30 January 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[N0MAD]

Ilwrath, on 29 January 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

There is absolutely nothing pubs can learn by getting rolled over by a premade. Nothing at all.
Apart from possibly learning that it may be time to try some other free to pay game. They are all free right?

Or maybe they can learn to find a team or possibly play as a team instead of doing a Rambo.

[Thirdstar]

N0MAD, on 30 January 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Or maybe they can learn to find a team or possibly play as a team instead of doing a Rambo.

This is a new and interesting idea that has never been suggested before.

[CrashieJ]

you really want to know how to balance this out?



look at it... the strong will make headway and come across enemies worthy enough to defeat them, as the cycle of destruction turns.

the weak will chose their battles and their plans, and fight when the enemy is (literally in real life) asleep.

mercs corps and merc loners (PUGS) will pick up contracts to fight for others based on skill/rank/allegience.

hundreds of worlds to chose to fight on and against...

THAT, is balance.

[Serapth]

Thirdstar, on 30 January 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

This is a new and interesting idea that has never been suggested before.

My god, it completely changed my view of MWO! I've been doing it wrong all along... apparently the key to enjoying this game is to join a group and exploit the advantage it grants you.


/DOH How could I be so blind.

My thanks to you Nomad, for such an insightful and illuminating post! You've changed the way I view this game and the world in general.

[Dimento Graven]

Thirdstar, on 30 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

There's no debate in that wall of rant. Just TONS of ad hominem attacks and barely coherent frothing.

Like reading the politics threads on FARK.

Your opinion. You have to ignore HOW someone says, and read what they actually say.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 30 January 2013 - 07:01 PM.