371 replies to this topic

[Tarman]

Zylo, on 29 January 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

It's only dangerous if you let it surprise you since it has very high burst damage. A good team won't rush up to brawl with the A1, but a very disorganized pug team might have more problems being jumped by a sneak A1 pilot.

The ballistic weapon loads of many cataphract builds can pick apart the A1 before it can get in range. Many A1 pilots also like to strip leg armor, so if you don't have a good line of sight to the head, hitting the legs that are often filled with ammo can quickly drop the A1 before it has a chance to do any serious damage.

The stalker can be deadly against slower targets due to it's firepower but it's easily outmanuvered. Usually I see stalker brawlers picked apart from long range so they generally aren't a serious threat unless they manage to sneak up on you.

This. The Cat and the brawling Stalker are evil up close because that's their thing, but have exploitable weaknesses, one of which is them requiring to get that close to you in the first place. In a game where there are weapons that can blow open their cockpits and strip their weapons from over a klick out. You gotta GET those killers to the line for them to work their dark arts, otherwise they are usually food. I hate hate hate getting murdered by 6Cats, but it's because I let myself get in a spot where I was already doomed to failure. Move too far out off your flank, lose track of your team movement in a dustup, blindly rush that building cluster and anything is probably going to get you, not just the kitties.

[Khobai]

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It's only dangerous if you let it surprise you since it has very high burst damage

Conversely, a good A1 wont get picked apart by a Cataphract at range because theyll stay behind cover until its safe to close the distance. Ultimately the A1 has to rely on the rest of its team to create an opening for it to get within range. If its team cant create that opening then the A1 will be ineffective.

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The ballistic weapon loads of many cataphract builds can pick apart the A1 before it can get in range.

We call that sniping. Not brawling. The Cataphract is certainly a better sniper. But when it comes to brawling, which is generally 270m or less, an A1 is going to crush a Cataphract most of the time.

[Super Mono]

Tarman, on 30 January 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

This. The Cat and the brawling Stalker are evil up close because that's their thing, but have exploitable weaknesses, one of which is them requiring to get that close to you in the first place. In a game where there are weapons that can blow open their cockpits and strip their weapons from over a klick out. You gotta GET those killers to the line for them to work their dark arts, otherwise they are usually food. I hate hate hate getting murdered by 6Cats, but it's because I let myself get in a spot where I was already doomed to failure. Move too far out off your flank, lose track of your team movement in a dustup, blindly rush that building cluster and anything is probably going to get you, not just the kitties.

This is a downside that's shared by all short-range mechs. This is worthless to bring up as we're talking specifically about the catapult.

[Tarman]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

This is a downside that's shared by all short-range mechs. This is worthless to bring up as we're talking specifically about the catapult.

So if it has the weakness of all short-ranged mechs then it doesn't need nerfing. It's good at what it does, really good. It's not invincible or the only choice for all occasions.

[Funkin Disher]

OP, you present a reasonable argument.

Have voted in favor of reducing torso twist.

[Super Mono]

Tarman, on 30 January 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

So if it has the weakness of all short-ranged mechs then it doesn't need nerfing. It's good at what it does, really good. It's not invincible or the only choice for all occasions.

Wow, ok, so I guess the fact that the Catapult still overheats like other Mechs makes it balanced as well, right? Is this the logic you're going with?

[Khobai]

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So if it has the weakness of all short-ranged mechs then it doesn't need nerfing. It's good at what it does, really good. It's not invincible or the only choice for all occasions.

The issue is that the A1 is not supposed to be a close-range mech. Canonically its supposed to be a long-range support mech thats completely defenseless at close range. So it really goes against the spirit of the mech to have it equip six SRM6s. Catapults have never been considered frontline mechs so its just a little silly to see so many brawler Catapults. Mech roles need to be enforced better in this game.

Edited by Khobai, 30 January 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

xRatas, on 29 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Ac20 doesn't do that much damage from over 270m, and with decent Awesome or Stalker, you should be well able to disable AC20cat form 500m. It can not mount XL engine to go with those cannons, so it won't be that fast, just don't panic before it is inside 270m, and rotate your torso and keep moving. AC20 is not the easiest weapon to hit reliably on same spot if enemy moves.

who fights with those weapons at that range!?!?!? every brawl comes under 100m easy. and that's what the catapult can do best rush in, strike hard and pull out. some lights have uber speed for this but mediums are too fragile and assults are too slow. the catapult is a perfect negotiater of terraign and giving it stackable weapons ability beyound the scopes of many mechs it is an ez mode for brawling.

folow the ecm and no one will tell what k2 type you have, in town it's a killer, it's only subpar on the caustic valley map.

give us some more range play on the maps and brawler mechs will have to work at being sneaky to catch people out. at this point in time it doesn't take a genius to take a covered route and suddenly spring on someone.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 30 January 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[Tarman]

Khobai, on 30 January 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Right but the issue isnt that is has a weakness. The issue is that the A1 is not supposed to be a close-range mech. Canonically its supposed to be a long-range support mech thats completely defenseless at close range. So it really goes against the spirit of the mech to have it equip six SRM6s.

I'd agree with you on some type of hardpoint tweaks but I'm not sure how you'd split that up. Would you go full-on LRM boat with six LRM-only slots? It'd cut its driving numbers drastically if the meta stays this flavour. Nobody will want it if all it can do is park. Look how much flak guys get for doing that now; that will make the mech reviled. Canon at this point is so far changed you may as well roll with it, and make what's best for this game. The ride needs to be viable here.

[xRatas]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

What downsides? Other than someone being too stupid to not twist away from an enemy mech to keep the cockpit out of sight of the an enemy's weapons? Something that's incredibly easy to do because of the best torso-twist in the game?

It is quite easy to hit Catapult's cockpit from side. And if you do not shoot wildly, you can wait until he turns back to face you. He can not shoot the arm mounted guns with free look to avoid this.

Some downside are:
-Can't move arms (countered by good torso twist range)
-Lot of weapons in single location (eggs are always in 2 baskets on those boat builds)
-Almost always severe heat problems (excluding gausscat, but that has exploding guns)
-Usually severe compromising in build: stripped armor, not much ammo, low speed. Or any mix of those.
-Torso armor not much shielded by arms, always easy to hit in torsos (dies fast)

That's a few without much thinking.

[Super Mono]

Tarman, on 30 January 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

I'd agree with you on some type of hardpoint tweaks but I'm not sure how you'd split that up. Would you go full-on LRM boat with six LRM-only slots? It'd cut its driving numbers drastically if the meta stays this flavour. Nobody will want it if all it can do is park. Look how much flak guys get for doing that now; that will make the mech reviled. Canon at this point is so far changed you may as well roll with it, and make what's best for this game. The ride needs to be viable here.

You really are completely all over the place.

Read the poll, read the opening post, please try to understand what is actually being discussed here.

[Zylo]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

So your argument breaks down to "I wouldn't post your observations as to the game's balance unless I was just terrible and wanted a nerf to make up for my lack of skill." Sure. Makes perfect sense.

I don't need to struggle to beat Cats to notice that they're just a little too good in the game's overall meta. I'm sorry that you think that balancing decisions need to be made in broad nerfs, or that the desire for balance is strictly because I get roflstomped by something and omg nerf nerf nerf. I posted a long, clearly defined list of observations about the current state of MWO and why I feel the Catapult is still the go-to choice for heavy mechs. Nowhere in there do I complain about dying to catapults, or that the catapults are "OP" and need major nerfs. All I said was that the Cat is still a better choice than a Dragon or a Phract (or, indeed, a Jagermech) to fill a heavy slot on everything from a solo pug to an 8 man competitive, and I offered a very simple solution to make the Catapult less dominant. It does nothing to hurt the Cat's firepower potential, or it's ability to be awesome in a brawl. All it does is make it so that other mechs compare to the Catapult and expand the number of desirable or viable choices in the game.

I'd like there to be a serious toss-up between a gaussaphract or a gaussapult, but right now there just isn't. 5 extra tons just doesn't make up for the 'Phract's weaknesses in the face of the Cat. There's no other heavy chassis that can hold a comparable 90 point alpha strike. Do I think it's wrong that the Cat can do that? Not a bit. Do I think that it's wrong that the Cat can do that and also turn better than mechs who lack the Cat's firepower but supposedly make up for it in maneuverability (like our current mediums)? Yes. It's a little silly that a second-line fire support chassis can out-twist main-line infighter mechs, and it's a big part of what makes the Cat so good.

None of this has to do with my personal ability to take down Catapults, nor, indeed, does it really hinge on anyone else's. The fact of the matter is that I feel like people still choose the Cat over any other mech because the Cat is just better than any other mech, and it's massive torso traverse is a big part of that. Tone that down a few shades and the Cat stops being the the undisputed king of the heavyweight chassis.

In MWO the catapult has been around longer than the cataphract. Pilots have spent lots of time testing and perfecting their catapult builds while the cataphract is a more recent addition to the game. When it comes to competitive play do you take something you have extensive experience with vs something you don't have as much experience with? Over time as more players test they will see more reasons to choose the cataphract like the arm mounted ballistic weapons allowing the pilots to hit targets that would be too high or too low for a catapult K2 to hit.

In terms of missile boating capabilities the other heavies are lacking the hardpoints of the catapults. THIS is the primary reason you see so many A1 or C4 SRM brawlers. It has nothing to do with twist, it has everything to do with hardpoints. You see the same thing with the stalker. Players like missiles right now, LRM, SRM, SSRM and if the mech has the hardpoints it WILL be a popular choice.

If missiles get nerfed and ballistics get a boost you will see fewer SRM based catapult brawlers and more cataphract 4x builds running around.

[Tarman]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

You really are completely all over the place.

Read the poll, read the opening post, please try to understand what is actually being discussed here.

He was talking about changing the hardpoints, IDC enough about the mech to think they're sacrosanct the way they are but I'd rather leave them the way they are than change them to something as restrictive as the original canon design.

The thread is about Kitties being too powerful which by pointing out weaknesses I believe they're not, and the torso twist reduction is pointless.

Is that easier for you to grasp or would you like to devolve into complete snarking instead?

[GalaxyBluestar]

Tarman, on 30 January 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

I'd agree with you on some type of hardpoint tweaks but I'm not sure how you'd split that up. Would you go full-on LRM boat with six LRM-only slots? It'd cut its driving numbers drastically if the meta stays this flavour. Nobody will want it if all it can do is park. Look how much flak guys get for doing that now; that will make the mech reviled. Canon at this point is so far changed you may as well roll with it, and make what's best for this game. The ride needs to be viable here.

i agree don't make hardpoints weapon/range specific. but as someone mentioned making them size restrictive would be good. no more 6ppc stalkers no more gauss/ac20 cats. they are silly builds fitting gunnery the model profile clearly can't do.

[Adrienne Vorton]

same discussion now about the catapult, but this time caused by the A1?

people wanted to nerf the cat to death just because the dual gauss "is sooo goddam OP"...
now it´s the A1...

i drive neither of both, and i will not accept a nerf to one of my favoured chassis.... the catapult is NOT the most powerful heavy mech, it´s a rather "multi purpose" platform and allows alot of variety over all it´s variants... it´s the currently 2nd heaviest heavy mech, buut in some cases gets outclassed by dragons, believe it or not... other chassis are more specialized, but the cat is a papermech...

the huge twist radius just helps with situational awareness, it doesn´t make the mech less a papermech...

SRM cat? snipe it... LRM cat? get up close... especially the A1 is limited to it´s ears... play as a frakkin team, and it´s not more of a threat than any other mech...

[xRatas]

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 January 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

who fights with those weapons at that range!?!?!? every brawl comes under 100m easy. and that's what the catapult can do best rush is strike hard and pull out. some lights have uber speed for this but mediums are too fragile and assults are too slow. the catapult is a perfect negotiater of terraign and giving it stackable weapons ability beyound the scopes of many mechs it is an ez mode for brawling.

I've driven quite a bit of Awesomes, and a few times I've been jumped with a catapult and died. Most of the time I watch them run for cover, or charge towards me while taking huge amounts of damage. If I was paying attention, when it reaches me, there should be at least 2 team members nearby. Even in PUGs.

Seriously, why are you fighting brawlers from brawling distance? Did you mount your Assault full of close range weapons, and then cry when you have to brawl them? If you're slow, engage from far (every map has places to be for that). If you're fast, pick your distance. Sometimes you get suprised by brawler, that's fine. They did well then.

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[Super Mono]

xRatas, on 30 January 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

It is quite easy to hit Catapult's cockpit from side. And if you do not shoot wildly, you can wait until he turns back to face you. He can not shoot the arm mounted guns with free look to avoid this.

Some downside are:
-Can't move arms (countered by good torso twist range)
-Lot of weapons in single location (eggs are always in 2 baskets on those boat builds)
-Almost always severe heat problems (excluding gausscat, but that has exploding guns)
-Usually severe compromising in build: stripped armor, not much ammo, low speed. Or any mix of those.
-Torso armor not much shielded by arms, always easy to hit in torsos (dies fast)

That's a few without much thinking.

Twist to make him waste that shot and then unload on him. The cat pilot should always be able to give a choice on what armor to take that hit on with it's great torso twist.

-Can't move arms (countered by good torso twist range)

Entirely negated as you pointed out.

-Almost always severe heat problems (excluding gausscat, but that has exploding guns)

All mechs overheat, we're talking specifically about how the Catapult's inherent characteristics are balanced against other mechs.

-Usually severe compromising in build: stripped armor, not much ammo, low speed. Or any mix of those.

Same as above, anyone can design any chassis to have this weakness.

One downside on the chassis is entirely negated, the other two can be mitigated by skillful twisting of the Catapult pilot to reduce hits on certain locations. With the wide range of motion the twist has the catapult pilot should be making full use of it.

Tarman, on 30 January 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

He was talking about changing the hardpoints, IDC enough about the mech to think they're sacrosanct the way they are but I'd rather leave them the way they are than change them to something as restrictive as the original canon design.

The thread is about Kitties being too powerful which by pointing out weaknesses I believe they're not, and the torso twist reduction is pointless.

Is that easier for you to grasp or would you like to devolve into complete snarking instead?

The thread is about Catapults being overpowered because of their torso-twist. I would like to spend more time focusing on that rather than having people think "Well the mech still overheats and can't ravage me with SRMS from the 1KM out!" are valid arguments that the Catapult is fine.

[Zylo]

Adrienne Vorton, on 30 January 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

same discussion now about the catapult, but this time caused by the A1?

people wanted to nerf the cat to death just because the dual gauss "is sooo goddam OP"...
now it´s the A1...

i drive neither of both, and i will not accept a nerf to one of my favoured chassis.... the catapult is NOT the most powerful heavy mech, it´s a rather "multi purpose" platform and allows alot of variety over all it´s variants... it´s the currently 2nd heaviest heavy mech, buut in some cases gets outclassed by dragons, believe it or not... other chassis are more specialized, but the cat is a papermech...

the huge twist radius just helps with situational awareness, it doesn´t make the mech less a papermech...

SRM cat? snipe it... LRM cat? get up close... especially the A1 is limited to it´s ears... play as a frakkin team, and it´s not more of a threat than any other mech...

The problem is that people lose to a specific mech that happens to sneak up on them (or a played by a better pilot) and cry "OMG!!! NERF TEH CAT!!!" as a result. This thread seems no different other than the way the nerf cry was concealed in the post.

I play Atlas, Stalker, Cataphract, Catapult, Centurion, Hunchback and Raven and I have no complaints about any specific chassis being too strong. Weapon balance is off a bit with some weapons but PGI is working on that.

[Khobai]

Quote

people wanted to nerf the cat to death just because the dual gauss "is sooo goddam OP"...
now it´s the A1...

uh PGI nerfed gauss because it was OP. derp.

[GalaxyBluestar]

xRatas, on 30 January 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

I've driven quite a bit of Awesomes, and a few times I've been jumped with a catapult and died. Most of the time I watch them run for cover, or charge towards me while taking huge amounts of damage. Seriously, why are you fighting brawlers from brawling distance? Did you mount your Assault full of close range weapons, and then cry when you have to brawl them? If you're slow, engage from far (every map has places to be for that). If you're fast, pick your distance. Sometimes you get suprised by brawler, that's fine. They did well then.

cause sniping is a split second oppotunity [i run them usually but sometimes the brawler awesome is most recomended by people *sigh*}, that is if the enemy want a shoot out which a k2 never does. a brawl takes a second for the mech to rush you and you won't shake em off. you have to stick it out, in a stalker i fight them all. atlas, not bother, awesome, good for a laugh, cataphract good fight, dragon so-so depending on pilot and loadout not bothered, mediums hmmmm tasty, light's SWAT THE FLIES SOMEONE! lights are a counter to assaults so i accept being beaten by them. but i fear the k2 most of all cause once a pilot sees me he know i'm not an srm boat and thus i'm smothered to death, you can't run and you're out gunned unless you headshot. it's manditory with those cause you certainly won't have time to do much else against one.

the a1 is managable shoot an ear half the firepower gone another he's toast it's a fair war of attrition. k2's have stronger harder to hit torso's and considering it's speed it's still outdoes a stalker and can keep up with an awesome, maybe not so a 9m but an awesome is so wide how could he miss. k2 is just the best brawler beside the a1 and it's just.... ifey for a fire support mech to be as such.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 30 January 2013 - 12:32 AM.