371 replies to this topic

[Alex Wolfe]

Gaan Cathal, on 30 January 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Sorry but this, and I'm not a catty pilot, is a major exaggeration. Those ears are huge, and vulnerable. It's probably the easiest mech in the game to disarm and the most obnoxious variant has no backup weapons in the torso.

It's not like most mechs have many weapons left after a 90-point opening salvo, is it now? With another helping coming in 4 seconds.

You can only play at shooting ears if the enemy waddles out in the open and you get it at long range, because in the time you shoot ears up close, A1 shoots your torso, a bigger target, and actually kills you. If you're a short ranged brawler as well... welp, you just got Darwin'd by a superior predator. Hf being extinct.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 January 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Gregore]

The issue is not with the cat, the issue is with how powerful SRM's are.
They need to put a limit on the amount of ammo, or make it so that only so much can be protected by your armor.
Or reduce the qty. I mean 100 SRM's is equal to 10 gauss rounds? LRM's are even worse.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ahahahaha.

Yeah, the counter to a mech is not engaging the mech. Just hide and hope it goes away. Stall and hope the dinosaurs won't find you. Prayer optional.

And it's SO hard for catapults to reach SRMs effective range with a mech running 80 kph, on this game's tiny, cover-overflowing maps.

Your suggestion to "get help from teammates" only shows even you know how Catapults are. What you say basically suggests that a Catapult is worth at least 2 other mechs. Basically, by picking a cheesepult variant you attain a level boss status, and need a tank, healer and DPS to down if piloted semi-competently? You suggest to engage catapult with 2 mechs, what if there are 4 catapults? That's 8 people to engage them all, at least! What if there are eight? You don't get 16 on your team. Should you type "gg" and walk out of bonds?

It's not like there are brawlers that can engage SRM36cat in the game currently, besides maybe Stalker 3F. Shouldn't there be? Shouldn't you be able to go toe-to-toe with brawler cat in, say, a brawler Cataphract? Guess what: due to hitboxes and twist, you're not. There's a reason A1 earned the moniker "raidboss" few patches back. That was the streak version, SRM36 doesn't aim for you, but it 2shots most mechs up close so you get the idea.

One I never pray that I'll get ignored by a cheese build as an effective way not to get killed by it. But if I can use cover to avoid getting slammed by said build until I can get to my teammates and help kill it then that's what I'm going to do.

Alex you are aware that there can never be 1 thing that counters another 1 thing in any MMO. If that were the case then what's the point of having anything else? Cheese builds like the StreakCat getting sent to the wayside by ECM. Or the A1 LRM boat getting countered by getting a light in close because it couldn't defend against it. The only way to stay alive in one was to keep a brawler close to you to come and save your butt. It took 2 mechs to keep one alive and made little point to keep around.

Cover is an effective way to counter many things, you can't deny that, neither is teamwork.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 January 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Gregore, on 30 January 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

The issue is not with the cat, the issue is with how powerful SRM's are.
They need to put a limit on the amount of ammo, or make it so that only so much can be protected by your armor.
Or reduce the qty. I mean 100 SRM's is equal to 10 gauss rounds? LRM's are even worse.

We've had LRM, twingauss, ssrm12, and now we're enjoying the company of SRM36 and AC40 catapults.

As long as there are weapons, the chassis will be broken because the chassis is broken with its agility and protected sides. You can nerf weapons (and should do so, if they're overpowered), but it ends up hurting other mechs more than Catapult, which just switches to the next best cheese.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 January 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

That's really the core of it. People just keep swapping from cheesecat build to cheesecat build because the Catapult itself is an incredibly good chassis that nothing else can really hold a candle to. It is chock full of hardpoints that can take full advantage of the most powerful weapons in the game better than almost any other mech currently implemented can. Sure, that's fine. I don't mind the Cat having it's awesome hardpoints. I just feel like it shouldn't have awesome hardpoints and still have a wider torso twist than every other mech in the game by 20 degrees or more, and just shy of the widest reach in the game (an honor currently held by the Hunchback, but with 4 lasers at most compared to the Cat's twin ballistics or truckload of SRMs).

Plain and simple, this has nothing to do with losing to catapults, or dying to catapults, or wah wah wah cat cheese nerf nerf nerf. I don't mind cheese. I don't have trouble beating cheese. This has nothing to do with Cats being "unbeatable" or "OP" or whatnot. This is looking at Cats from a number crunching perspective, a minmaxers perspective, and a long-time player's perspective. I know almost every cheese cat can be beaten with some tactics and thought. I still think that the chassis itself is too good, and the reason that everyone runs to the Cat for the FotM builds is because it's got everything going for it. It needs to get toned down a touch if we want other heavy mechs to be seriously considered. The 'Phract needs to have an advantage in having mobile arms. The Dragon needs to have an advantage in it's speed and manuverability. The Cat can't be just as fast, just as armored, with better hardpoints and better maneuverability and still have the other heavies be viable options. There just isn't any comparison.

Let the Cats have their awesome hardpoints. There's nothing wrong with those. Tone down the torso twist so it's less far-and-away better in a brawl than other mechs and you'll start to see that the other heavies start to shine a bit more.

When was the last time you saw a team field nothing but Cats? Because in those numbers they become ineffective.

[Alex Wolfe]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

When was the last time you saw a team field nothing but Cats? Because in those numbers they become ineffective.

Better question: when was the last time you saw a (competent/competitive) team fielding something but Cats in all of their alloted heavy slots?

[Fenix0742]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Alex you are aware that there can never be 1 thing that counters another 1 thing in any MMO. If that were the case then what's the point of having anything else?

Lol, what? Hard and soft counters bring balance and diversity. If you don't want counters, you should start a league where all 16 players just bring SRM6 A1's, "cause what's the point of having anything else?" You can call it Run Catapult or Die.

[Gregore]

Also keep in mind this will all change once collision is back in. If you weren't in closed beta then you might not know that the cat can be knocked over by the gust of wind created by a commando running by within 100m of you.

[xRatas]

Am I just running around eyes closed, or why I rarely see a catapult to dominate games? I agree they are good mechs, but really, how often you guys see a SRM/Streak/AC/Gauss-Cat dominating in game? I see them every now and then, but it is rare that I see them killing lot of mechs. I get lucky sometimes in my K2, and might even get 4 kills. Maybe I should bolt on twinAC20 instead of my PPCs and get 7-8 kills constantly...? (I generally kill more mechs in my Awesome than in my K2 though.)

Btw, I liked your solid and informative post up there Josef. While I do not agree with you, it was a well written post!

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Better question: when was the last time you saw a (competent/competitive) team fielding something but Cats in all of their alloted heavy slots?

Are we talking about a true team? One that uses 3rd party comms to communicate? My team does all the time, I use my Ilya over a Cat every time. It fields 2 LL's and 2 LBX's, I shred thru armor on most mechs that my teammates have difficulty with and use them to help kill the things like the RaidCat you mentioned earlier. I think the only heavy mech my team doesn't use at all is the Dragon. The Jagermech will also be an effective counter to almost any Cat at distance, made more effective by either harassing lights or my Ilya. We're all smart enough to stay close enough to cover one another, or fast enough to get back to said cover if needed.

[Josef Nader]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

When was the last time you saw a team field nothing but Cats? Because in those numbers they become ineffective.

Why is it that teams need to be made up of nothing but the same mech for the mech to be considered too effective?

From my very opening argument, I stated that there is very little reason to bring something not a catapult to fill the heavy slot on a coordinated team. With teams that can work with the Cat and protect it, the Catapult is far and away the best choice as no other heavy (indeed, almost no other mech) can blow off the side torso of an Atlas with a single shot from the front. This is made especially silly as it can be done while the Catapult is running almost directly away from the Atlas.

I feel like the best solution to this is not to make the Catapult a worse boat, but to make it so that it can't hit everything within a 280 degree arc with a full alpha which is more than likely to make a large chunk of the opposing mech evaporate into thin air. I'm okay with them making large chunks of mechs evaporate into thin air. I'm not okay with them doing it to any mech outside of a narrow 80 degree window directly behind their legs.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Fenix0742, on 30 January 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Lol, what? Hard and soft counters bring balance and diversity. If you don't want counters, you should start a league where all 16 players just bring SRM6 A1's, "cause what's the point of having anything else?" You can call it Run Catapult or Die.

Exactly Fenix, you have to have both hard and soft (multiple) counters in any MMO to keep the game viable. If mech A can only be countered by mech B (and in reverse) then what's the point of using anything else but those two. You might as well go play chess if that's the type of balance you want in a game.

[Alex Wolfe]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I use my Ilya over a Cat every time. It fields 2 LL's and 2 LBX's, I shred thru armor on most mechs

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

It fields 2 LL's and 2 LBX's, I shred thru armor

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

2 LL's and 2 LBX's, I shred

Oh. Ooooooooh.

I think we're done here then.

[psihius]

Don't touch the torso twist. In fact leave all the stats as they are!
The only thing needed is somehow to restrict builds like dual AC/20, dual Gaus and 6 x SRM6 builds. As a pro in riding an LRM + MPL catapult - I need that torso twist! It gives me a unique to catapult ability to keep my distance by running away from target and shooting it at the same time. It makes a lot of difference when making a light not beeing able to catch up with you before he get's wasted by my missiles.

So, DON'T TOUCH THE TORSO TWIST! IT'S ALMOST IRRELIVANT TO THE BUILD PROBLEM. SRM build comes with maxed out engine, so it's manurvability is high anyway.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Why is it that teams need to be made up of nothing but the same mech for the mech to be considered too effective?

I feel like the best solution to this is not to make the Catapult a worse boat, but to make it so that it can't hit everything within a 280 degree arc with a full alpha which is more than likely to make a large chunk of the opposing mech evaporate into thin air. I'm okay with them making large chunks of mechs evaporate into thin air. I'm not okay with them doing it to any mech outside of a narrow 80 degree window directly behind their legs.

If a SRM boat is doing nothing but concentrating then the Atlas and getting in an Alpha strike then what do you think I'm going to do to counter it? As that Atlas pilot I'm going to twist my torso so that my arms take the brunt of the damage. As a supporting pilot in another mech I'm going to try and get behind that SRM Cat and shred either it's mouse ears or it's back armor.

[Super Mono]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

One downside on the chassis is entirely negated, the other two can be mitigated by skillful twisting of the Catapult pilot to reduce hits on certain locations. With the wide range of motion the twist has the catapult pilot should be making full use of it.

I'm still waiting for someone to counter my point about how the Catapult's chassis itself has very little in the way of an actual downsides, and not change the subject by bringing up unrelated nonsense about SRMs.

[xRatas]

In our group, Muromets is quite common sight (3x UAC5), and I would pick my dragon instead of K2 when I'm serious about trying to wrestle a win for my group. Reasoning: Dragon survives longer and can redeploy much faster to aid others where needed. Need other reasons?

I'm pretty much the only one in our group, who even bothers to drive a Catapult in competitive game.

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Super Mono]

psihius, on 30 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Don't touch the torso twist. In fact leave all the stats as they are!
The only thing needed is somehow to restrict builds like dual AC/20, dual Gaus and 6 x SRM6 builds. As a pro in riding an LRM + MPL catapult - I need that torso twist! It gives me a unique to catapult ability to keep my distance by running away from target and shooting it at the same time. It makes a lot of difference when making a light not beeing able to catch up with you before he get's wasted by my missiles.

So, DON'T TOUCH THE TORSO TWIST! IT'S ALMOST IRRELIVANT TO THE BUILD PROBLEM. SRM build comes with maxed out engine, so it's manurvability is high anyway.

As I suspected, people don't want to give up the Catapult's easy mode when it comes to having to manage maneuvering and torso-twisting.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Oh. Ooooooooh.

I think we're done here then.

So your point is to pick apart my statement into individual words and then pull a childis comment like that? Wow, what effective debate skills you have Alex. IF SRM Cats are so effective why haven't they been boated far longer than Streak Cats?

[Thorstine]

I don't think the problem is with the Catapult. If its the SRM boats or LRM boats that are the problem, then nerfing the missile damage would be a better solution. If its the K2, there are other drawbacks. For the Gauss cat, you must use an XL engine or the mech is just to slow. If its the AC20 build you must use a small STD engine giving up a lot of speed. If you know what you are facing than you know what its weakness is and you should be capitalizing on it.