371 replies to this topic

[Thorstine]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

But what about other mechs that make good use of SRMs or LRMs without boating them? The HBK-4SP, or the Centurion chassis as a whole? Heavy/Assault hunting light mechs who pack an SRM6 or an SRM4 or two. Are these builds too powerful and in need of a nerf? No. The problem is the Cat chassis.

Well, the HBK and Centurion have their missile mounts in the torso. The Cats missile mounts are in the arms making them way more vulnerable. Plus there is a role difference between the med mechs you mentioned so I'm not sure why you bring them up. An ammo nerf(ammount/ton) or small dmg nerf to the SRM's and LRM's would go a long way towards not boating them as much. 90+ point alphas are a bit silly imho.

[Josef Nader]

Thorstine, on 30 January 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Well, the HBK and Centurion have their missile mounts in the torso. The Cats missile mounts are in the arms making them way more vulnerable. Plus there is a role difference between the med mechs you mentioned so I'm not sure why you bring them up. An ammo nerf(ammount/ton) or small dmg nerf to the SRM's and LRM's would go a long way towards not boating them as much. 90+ point alphas are a bit silly imho.

Because nerfing the amount of ammo I can get from my one ton in my JR7-D would seriously hurt the build. Nerfing the damage I can put out from my primary weapon in an SP or a CN9-A would make a fun and viable build depreciate in the meta. Oh, and Cats will still be able to pile 6 launchers on and obliterate things at close range.

Boats can take multiples of any weapon and make it powerful. One or two SSRM 2s isn't very powerful, but 6 of them is very good. One AC20 is scary. Two AC20s is blistering. An LRM20 will knock a bit of armor off. An LRM 80 will melt your mech into a puddle of goo. It's just the nature of boats. You live with it in BT.

Again, I don't think that the best boat in the game should also be one of the most maneuverable mechs in the game.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Yokaiko, on 30 January 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

They have, before streakcats there was a fair amount of whining about 6pack cats. Of course there were no double heatsinks at the time, so they only got a volley or two before they over heated.

That's my point though, there have been cheese builds of Gauss Cats, Streak Cats, Whoosh Cats, SRM Cats. One has never remained dominant over the others completely.

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

The entire point of this argument is that the Catapult's chassis itself is overpowered due to the advantages its incredible torso twist gives it. Focusing on whatever weapons it's boating is missing the point.

I see your point Super, I'm not in total disagreement. But if it were truly dominant for that reason why are people playing other mechs? Cat's have a variety of HP layouts that are very good, but ultimately they are specialty builds. Their advantages in weapon HP's are the downfall that makes their torso twist only a small advantage to the chassis on a consistent basis. Each Cat is a specialty build, with the difference of the C1. Specialty builds are never going to truly dominate because their weaknesses are blatantly obvious.

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

My point is that if that's the sort of thing that you'd believe about the game balance, then we won't find an understanding even if I typed the equivalent of a new "War and Peace", with 3/4 of "Ulysses" here.

Hey, at least give me credit for not using that* when I first read your words, okay? Because that's exactly how I felt, and now I feel it's a bit of a waste.

I have been open to your argument the entire time, as I've hoped you've been to mine. One small thing like Torso Twist does not make the mech, it just gives it a small advantage. Boating a mech gives it an advantage, but if it were such a glaring advantage it would be the only thing used in game. Am I always successful against an SRM Cat? No, but I don't die by their hand in every match either. I get killed by an array of mechs using different weapons and tactics. if you break it down this game is more akin to Chinese Checkers and not Chess, that seems to be the basis of your argument and the OP as well.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 January 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

I see your point Super, I'm not in total disagreement. But if it were truly dominant for that reason why are people playing other mechs?

Because people don't know any better. Just like they buy Death's Knells and Fangs for actual money, only to get steamrolled by the more metagame-savvy players in 3Ls and Catapults.

[xRatas]

Alex Wolfe, on 30 January 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Because people don't know any better. Just like they buy Death's Knells and Fangs for actual money, only to get steamrolled by the more metagame-savvy players in 3Ls and Catapults.

How about people who have mastered catapults in their mechbays, but choose to drive a mastered cataphract instead? I know quite a few. IMO cataphracts are horrible, but quite a few seem to disagree.

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Thorstine]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Because nerfing the amount of ammo I can get from my one ton in my JR7-D would seriously hurt the build. Nerfing the damage I can put out from my primary weapon in an SP or a CN9-A would make a fun and viable build depreciate in the meta. Oh, and Cats will still be able to pile 6 launchers on and obliterate things at close range.

Boats can take multiples of any weapon and make it powerful. One or two SSRM 2s isn't very powerful, but 6 of them is very good. One AC20 is scary. Two AC20s is blistering. An LRM20 will knock a bit of armor off. An LRM 80 will melt your mech into a puddle of goo. It's just the nature of boats. You live with it in BT.

Again, I don't think that the best boat in the game should also be one of the most maneuverable mechs in the game.

I still have to disagree. The damage potential you get from the amount of ammo you can carry for LRM's and SRM's are much, much higher than any other weapon that uses ammo. And because of that they should be brought into line. And again, there are severe trade offs for boating the 4xLRM 20 or 2xAC20. Mainly seen in the use of a smaller engine. Using a smaller engine means slower turning/twisting speeds and making them more vulnerable.

Boating 6 SSRM's means the mech is vulnerable to ECM. Again its a trade off. Do you want to go into a match knowing that 1 ECM mech could shut you down completely?

[Jel]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

The comments on the Cat being a "second line fire support mech" are more from a canon perspective and have little to do with the gameplay balance. I just think it's a little silly that a mech that is essentially an MLRS can traverse like an MBT, but that is neither here nor there as far as game balance.

Why would you mention it if you didn't think it should apply? In any case, it's pretty clear that MWO is contrary to canon in numerous instances, and that's not likely to change.

[Alex Wolfe]

xRatas, on 30 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

How about people who have mastered catapults in their mechbays, but choose to drive a mastered cataphract instead? I know quite a few. IMO cataphracts are horrible, but quite a few seem to disagree.

Yeah, well, in general - reasons like that.

Point is, they don't take those other chassis because they're GOOD. They do it because they don't know, or they want a change, or a challenge, or don't care, or anything.

If RHOD happened today though, you could bet your shiny metal butt that 2 heavy slots for every team that knows its stuff would be Catapults, just as certain as light slots being ECM Ravens. Just like the first one was all Jenners and... well... Catapults.

[Josef Nader]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

But if it were truly dominant for that reason why are people playing other mechs?

1) Because playing the same mech over and over again ad nauseum is boring. I'm a dedicated Atlas jockey and I rarely drop in my Atlas nowadays. I'm tired of playing it all the time. I want to mix it up.
2) Some people play for reasons other than WINNING AT ALL COSTS, and in PuG, 4 man, or casual 8 mans you can get away with not bringing a catapult if you know what you're doing.
3) Some people just don't like the feeling of playing cheese. I play the mechs I want to play and wholly accept the pros and cons of each chassis, learning to work around them.

As for the rest of your post, yes, you're right that specialty builds struggle in many situations. This thread isn't about Cats OMG ROFLROLLING TEAM ERRY TIME W/ 4+ KILLS OMG NERF NERF NERF. This thread is about breaking down a very popular mech to it's core components and analyzing why it's so wildly popular in comparison to other, comparable mechs (either in weight class or in role), and trying to come up with a way to tweak the Cat to, as the thread title says, bring it into line with the other heavy chassis and comparable role chassis in the game.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with boats. Boats have obvious, exploitable weaknesses. The Stalker is a primo example. An insanely powerful boat chassis with several built-in weaknesses that make mechs with a lower firepower rating but more maneuverability and build flexibility a serious contender with it. I'd like to do something similar with the Cat.

[ihateharriers]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

more inane nonsense about OP Catapults because he still hasn't figured out that they have cockpits the size of Texas, and if you shoot them there, they die.

The reason I bring SRMs into this is because it's the source of all this "OMG NERF CATAPULTS THEY'RE SO OP OMG" BS that's been cropping up in the forums like a weed infestation lately; since nobody seems to be catering to their whining about SRM Cats the complaints are now evolving into the Catapult chassis as a whole is "OMG SUPER OP" and needs to be nerfed.

It's the basic trend of "If we whine enough about this, and make as big an issue out of this as we can, maybe we can get our way if throw this stupid argument around enough."

A lie will become the truth if the lie is said more often than the truth.

There is nothing wrong with this chassis, plain and simple. The weaknesses of this chassis balance out it's advantages when people stop complaining and start exploiting them.

1. Giant cockpit - it's huge. Absolutely huge, and easy to hit if you've ever used a mouse before. Oh, and that "super advantageous torso twist" you complain about? It let's you hit that massive cockpit from any angle if you're not too busy crying and bother to aim for it.

2. Weak rear armor - most of a Cats armor is up front because our arms don't move laterally, so we have to be face front to hit anything, so most of the armor is there to soak up the damage we can't avoid taking. Oh, and did I mention that its head is about 50% of the CT when facing front?

3. XL engines - all of these "OMG SUPER OP NERF IT" builds use XLs - SRM cats, Gauss cats, LRM boat cats - the only one that doesn't is the AC/20 cat, and that build caters more to the weaknessess of the chassis than it does strengths. So, rather than flailing your reticules around like a methhead having a siezure next time you see a Cat, try aiming for the side torsos. Gauss rifles explode for damage btw.

And once again, this thread was started because of SRM Cats. Fact. That's why I made my post above.

Stop whining and start actually aiming, and you'll see that Cats aren't as bad as everyone wants to make them out to be.

[ak12546]

i feel that the reason that the cat seems OP is because that its current SRM of death build is catered to the map sizes and how some people play this game. I for one like to get in close with pretty much every mech even though some mechs would be better suited at range, and im trying to change that playsyle. Sure the cat has some awesome features like a large number of missle hardpoints and good torso twist but it like the hunchback has a serious flaw that i feel balances it out. It has two square shaped arms that stick out and are easy to hit. pretty much every cat except the Kay tu has this weakness. if we all could try to train ourselves to focus the boxes on the cats they would become nearly useless regarding missles. do any of you remember how mediums that could go 90 KPH were the flavor of the month before engine restrictions? The cat is just one of the most suited mechs to the current game enviroment. until the enviroment or the mech changes it will stay that way.

[Volthorne]

Is everyone forgetting that the CT of the Catapult is so obnoxiously large that it can be shot when your opponent is BEHIND you? How about the massive Cockpit the screams "Shoot me!" if you have even mediocre accuracy? And as people have said time and time again, without proper acknowledgement: the "ears" are bigger than a Jenner and half as fast!

So it has the best torso-twist and arm-pitch of all Heavies? Do the inherent chassis design flaws not deserve SOME compensation?

[Josef Nader]

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

And once again, this thread was started because of SRM Cats. Fact. That's why I made my post above.

Stop whining and start actually aiming, and you'll see that Cats aren't as bad as everyone wants to make them out to be.

The thread was started when I realized that throughout the entirety of my time playing the Beta, there has -always- been at least one, usually more, Catapult build that completely dominated the metagame. It started with the Gaussapult, moved to Streak cats, LRM cats for a while, back to Streak and Gauss cats, the first run or so of the Splat cat, back to Gauss and Streak Cats, back to Gauss and Splat cats with the introduction of ECM, over to KC20s and Splat cats with the gauss rifle nerfs, etc. etc. etc.

It has nothing to do with OMG SPLAT CAT IS TOO POWERFUL WAH WAH WAH. I'll take a splat cat over a streakapult's cockpit **** and homing CT seeking ammo (pre-ECM) any day of the week. I'll take a Splat cat over a pre Endo/Ferro/DHS Gausscat any day. The Splat cat is actually pretty tame as far as Cats are concerned.

No, the complaint is that the Catapult throughout the entirety of my time with the Beta has been the best heavy mech. It still is the best heavy mech. The gap between the Cat and other heavies has narrowed quite a bit, but it's still there significantly enough to warrant yet another nerf, I think. Not a big one. A little one. I think it'd go a long way to making the Cat less amazing.

[xRatas]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

As for the rest of your post, yes, you're right that specialty builds struggle in many situations. This thread isn't about Cats OMG ROFLROLLING TEAM ERRY TIME W/ 4+ KILLS OMG NERF NERF NERF. This thread is about breaking down a very popular mech to it's core components and analyzing why it's so wildly popular in comparison to other, comparable mechs (either in weight class or in role), and trying to come up with a way to tweak the Cat to, as the thread title says, bring it into line with the other heavy chassis and comparable role chassis in the game.

Well, nerf the looks and I stop playing it instantly. This is finally a game, where catapult actually looks badass. Just let it be one too... : ) It is fun to play and looks good, If it is reason enough for me, it might be for others too? I actually kept the PPCs because switching them off makes the Cat look castrated. There you have reasons for popularity through the eyes of someone else. Missile arms look too boxy, so I won't drive those.

Only other mechs I happily drive are Dragon, Awesome and Hunchback. They look damn good too. Rest are way too ugly to be played seriously.

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

If you don't give small advantages to each mech and simply bland out every mech chassis in each weight class then this game would have closed shop a long time ago. If the speed cap is lifted then how will people deal with Jenners and the like?

If JJ's are buffed so that a Cat can bounce around like a Spider how will we deal with that? Each chassis is supposed to have a small advantage over other chassis and other classes, it creates diversity we all need to take full advantage of our individual play styles.

I too have mastered many chassis (6 so far) between 4 classes and am now working on others. Not only does it dissuade making this game boring, I don't believe 1 mech will be able to win at all costs in any situation. Nor can I stand cheese builds like yourself.

Ultimately it is other things like true teamwork/ adaptation and communication that will consistently beat (not dominate) any match or build on the field. I recognize that and use it to my advantage.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 January 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Again, the Catapult has several innate advantages over other chassis:

1) High mounted weapons, meaning it can fire it's weapons with a minimum of exposure, especially when sniping
2) Excellent, symmetrical hard points that support a huge, flexible variety of builds making it one of the most versatile chassis in the game.
3) Multiple jumping variants (hopefully, they'll do something to make jump jets less terrible, but that's another story.)
4) Narrow torso hit profile, especially face on.

It also has several inbuilt cons:
1) Large ears are the easiest arms to hit in the game
2) Large cockpit hitbox that can be picked off pretty easily if the Cat pilot gives you the opportunity
3) It's the most hated chassis in the game, and most people start focus firing it the minute it comes into view

It doesn't need the ability to mimic an owl to still be an awesome and viable chassis with lots of interesting pros and cons.

[Suki]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Because nerfing the amount of ammo I can get from my one ton in my JR7-D would seriously hurt the build. Nerfing the damage I can put out from my primary weapon in an SP or a CN9-A would make a fun and viable build depreciate in the meta. Oh, and Cats will still be able to pile 6 launchers on and obliterate things at close range.

Boats can take multiples of any weapon and make it powerful. One or two SSRM 2s isn't very powerful, but 6 of them is very good. One AC20 is scary. Two AC20s is blistering. An LRM20 will knock a bit of armor off. An LRM 80 will melt your mech into a puddle of goo. It's just the nature of boats. You live with it in BT.

Again, I don't think that the best boat in the game should also be one of the most maneuverable mechs in the game.

An LRM80??? Give us that thing you're smoking. Even LRM-Stalkers don't use it becose of terrible heat and weight management.

[Kurshuk]

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

A game that uses managing torso and leg positions as a primary skill and Catapult is like putting in easy mode, there is no skill needed for a Catapult as there's very little dead-zone where you can't use your weapons that you have to worry about. For a heavy mech that should be a big concern and a large part of learning to use a particular chassis.

I don't disagree that learning the advantages and disadvantages of a chassis is a big part of playing heavy. I know you don't want to talk about srms, but that's really the issue here. That or AC20s or Gauss, but mostly SRMS. This all goes back to the OP and how he was disadvantaged in a brawl. The OP was tactically ignorant and wound up in a turning fight with someone that has a distinct advantage when it comes to moving that torso. I don't see this chassis OP as I've died a lot in it and know how to counter it. I havent died to a SRM catapult in forever because they have to get close and battles now are a little more of a stand off. Gauss cats and AC20s can be a pain, but most people focus fire on them as soon as they crop up and they're dispatched easily. I think this post and poll are trying to create a problem where there just isn't one.

Super Mono, on 30 January 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Mitigated by the incredible torso twist as I pointed out. The Catapult should be able to twist and present fresh armor to take shots on to prevent the enemy from focusing on one component. This damage mitigation is a huge part of brawling and this is why the Catapult excels in this role.

This does work, but even twisting one of those ears is always an easy shot and once de-eared a SRM cat is useless. The gauss cats and AC20s present more of an issue using this tactic, but gauss is vulnerable and if you pop one the mech goes down. AC20 also seems fragile, but I've never run them in the K2 so I don't know. But even if they're using an AC20, shoot the feet. That's one of the only places for ammo other than the arms, most pilots wouldn't use arms because they're easily lost.

[ihateharriers]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

More senseless whining because he still hasn't figured out how to skin a Cat, even though he's been playing since CB.

ak12546 said it best - they are the best suited 'Mechs for the current state of this game, which is in your face brawling. End of story.

Dragons are a good example of a great 'Mech that just doesn't have a place yet, because skirmishers currently have no real place in the all-out-brawl, glorified deathmatches of Assault and Conquest. Therefore, Dragons aren't nearly as popular nor as powerful as they should be.

Whoop-de-do, Cats are the best heavy 'Mech for the current state of the game. If they weren't the best right now, something else would be, and you would be whining about that too.

I think we should nerf the whining powers of all these whiners, and maybe the forums would be someplace to get informed, not someplace to pick a fight and wreck stupid logic when you're bored.

[Super Mono]

ihateharriers, on 30 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

1. Giant cockpit - it's huge. Absolutely huge, and easy to hit if you've ever used a mouse before. Oh, and that "super advantageous torso twist" you complain about? It let's you hit that massive cockpit from any angle if you're not too busy crying and bother to aim for it.

You brought up one actual weakness of the catapult that's not shared by every other mech, and as I've pointed out repeatedly this is easily negated by a the player making good use of the Catapult's great torso twist. So what's the point of having a weakness if you give it an huge advantage that neutralizes it?

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

If you don't give small advantages to each mech and simply bland out every mech chassis in each weight class then this game would have closed shop a long time ago. If the speed cap is lifted then how will people deal with Jenners and the like?

If JJ's are buffed so that a Cat can bounce around like a Spider how will we deal with that? Each chassis is supposed to have a small advantage over other chassis and other classes, it creates diversity we all need to take full advantage of our individual play styles.

I too have mastered many chassis (6 so far) between 4 classes and am now working on others. Not only does it dissuade making this game boring, I don't believe 1 mech will be able to win at all costs in any situation. Nor can I stand cheese builds like yourself.

Ultimately it is other things like true teamwork/ adaptation and communication that will consistently beat (not dominate) any match or build on the field. I recognize that and use it to my advantage.

Torsotwist is such a vital component to using mechs that the Catapult having the torso twist that it does is like having one mech dissipate heat 50% faster than every other mech. That's not creating variety, that's having one chassis just plain better than all the others.