258 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

What was popular about the Clans was they were vastly more powerful than the Inner Sphere. So there will be much crying from the player base if the Clans are a)as powerful as they are written and b] If they are not made "balanced' for casual players. no win situation anyone?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 31 January 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

What was popular about the Clans was they were vastly more powerful than the Inner Sphere. So there will be much crying from the player base if the Clans are a)as powerful as they are written and b] If they are not made "balanced' for casual players. no win situation anyone?

Indeed. The poll about balancing (i.e nerfing) Clantech had a lot of opposition, but there was also a lot of opposition about balancing Clans through C-Bills or MC.

But I speak through experience when I say sometimes companies simply don't care if a minor amount of P2W enters their games. As long as it's easily excused or camouflaged.

[Sug]

Is anyone really looking forward to the Clans coming? I'm looking forward to more mechs, more maps, better netcode, optimized graphics, balance weapons, etc....

It seems like a huge waste of development time to balance the game with IS tech and then make everything obsolete. I would be less disappointed if they just rolled back the timeline to the Succession Wars than if they broke their game with the Clans.

Also....unless there's like a secret team of developers how are the people that bring us one new mech every 2 months going to suddenly patch in the Clans..

[Bishop Steiner]

DeeSaster, on 31 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

I am missing "currently the game is fine, clan tech will add a new layer" option.

option 5: "Insert random answer into your post "here".

Would seem to have that covered.. but thank you for proving that no matter how open one makes it, someone will always find a way to QQ about a poll.

Even when they the did just what the option asked without even knowing it.

[Tornado Dash]

Brilig, on 30 January 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

I don't know about the mechs themselves, but there is a lot they can do to balance the technology.

They could make all clan weapons run a bunch hotter than their IS counterparts. More damage, better range with a heat penalty. That could help keep them from being OP.

For the most part that was the deal regarding Clan Weapons. they might have high damage or better range or less weight, but you better have the heat sinks to manage it.

[Splinters]

The only real balance would be via numbers, it would something like 4 Clan Mechs vs 8 IS Mechs by default and then the second factor for Clan vs IS would be limit the number of Clan drops vs IS drops so that it would promote IS chassis as something worth upgrading and running. Otherwise why wouldn't the whole community just switch to clan mechs and make it a inter-clan warfare game?

-S

[Bishop Steiner]

MustrumRidcully, on 31 January 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

I have strong doubts that it will be implemented in a manner that will immediately satisfy most players. I expect the results to be broken in some way. Most likely in my estimation is that "stock" Clan mechs will be much too hot, but customized Clan mechs will be extremely powerful and the match-making system will not yet handle this. It is also not unlikely that the way Clan tech becomes available to players will be unsatisfactory for many. I doubt a bit it will require MC expenditure, this would likely cause accusations of P2W and all that, and it will kinda violate the point of F2P if such an essential content element is still behind a paywall.

the question being, though (playing devils advocate here) is access to the Clans "essential" content. Yes many people obviously see Mechwarrior and think "MADCAT!!!!!!!" but was that the mission objective for this game? Hey, people are crying for Clan MEchs on Mechwarrior Tactics.. a game set 25 years before the invasion. Just because people want it doesn't mean they should necessarily GET it. If the game designers decide it should be US vs the Clans, you know.. it's their game?
(not that I think this is the actual plan, just saying that with the advent of forums, it seems too many people will go into a game meant to accomplish A, and decide that they want it changed to accomplish B, and that their crying and whining to make a game into something it was never meant to be should hold some sort of weight).


Would their be epic crying and rage quits if people never got to play as the Clans? Oh yeah. Would it (technically) break the game? Well... we've played for 6 months or more without the Clans and survived despite all the apocalyptic predictions.

Just sayin (and stirring the pot a little.... discussion is good, and as long as people don't turn this into a Flame PGI fest, hopefully will be the type that the Devs DO read and consider)

[Kdogg788]

Sug, on 31 January 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Is anyone really looking forward to the Clans coming? I'm looking forward to more mechs, more maps, better netcode, optimized graphics, balance weapons, etc....

It seems like a huge waste of development time to balance the game with IS tech and then make everything obsolete. I would be less disappointed if they just rolled back the timeline to the Succession Wars than if they broke their game with the Clans.

Also....unless there's like a secret team of developers how are the people that bring us one new mech every 2 months going to suddenly patch in the Clans..

So very true.

It's an absolute waste of time to fret over the canon details, and a waste of time for most players to go up against tech that is ridiculously superior in a game where they've paid real money for some of their equipment. Clan tech if and when it gets here will be toned down whether the TT diehards like it or not.

-k

[Sadistic Savior]

Sug, on 31 January 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Is anyone really looking forward to the Clans coming?

I am. They are a core part of Battletech IMO. The "real" Battletech did not start until the Clan invasion.

They can be easily balanced with Mech ratios. I really think people blow it out of proportion.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sug, on 31 January 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Is anyone really looking forward to the Clans coming? I'm looking forward to more mechs, more maps, better netcode, optimized graphics, balance weapons, etc....

It seems like a huge waste of development time to balance the game with IS tech and then make everything obsolete. I would be less disappointed if they just rolled back the timeline to the Succession Wars than if they broke their game with the Clans.

Also....unless there's like a secret team of developers how are the people that bring us one new mech every 2 months going to suddenly patch in the Clans..

I so agree with most of your post. I really wish they had gone with the original 3015 Storyline, but I think the test marketing must not have been strong enough without having Madcats and other toys availible. Heck, I'm the guy that wants a Mechwarrior Game set during either the ReUnification Wars, Age of War or Amaris Coup though, so what do I know?

One thing I will say though is ...why do you think so much has been so "slow" in coming? I can all but guarantee that Alex has been cranking out Clan designs, and the Modelers modeling them (along with balance testing and other stuff) in parallel to the IS stuff we are seeing as the Beta progresses. I would bet you my last Commando that they have been internally designing and testing Clan Tech at a 1 for 1 rate to the Inner Sphere stuff.

[Zaptruder]

Here's an idea:
Give IS players a back up mech ready to drop after their first mech is killed off (i.e. players can ready upto 2 IS mechs per game, or 1 clan mech per game).

So essentially IS players get 2 lives, clan players get one.


The difference between this and the 4 clan or 5 clan vs 8 IS mech is

You can keep everyone in the same queue. Clan mech players can play with IS players, which helps if the matchmaking queue isn't large enough to be split up into too many categories.

Also you can still have full 8v8 or 12v12 games.

And you don't have the focus fire and double armor advantage of 8 IS players vs 4 clan players... instead you just get double armor advantage as IS player (in the sense that you get two mechs, but can only use one at a time).

Edited by Zaptruder, 31 January 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sug, on 31 January 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Is anyone really looking forward to the Clans coming? I'm looking forward to more mechs, more maps, better netcode, optimized graphics, balance weapons, etc....

It seems like a huge waste of development time to balance the game with IS tech and then make everything obsolete. I would be less disappointed if they just rolled back the timeline to the Succession Wars than if they broke their game with the Clans.

Also....unless there's like a secret team of developers how are the people that bring us one new mech every 2 months going to suddenly patch in the Clans..

I signed up to be in the 10th Lyran Guard and be on Huntress when the Clans fall. So yeah, i'm here to fight Clanners.

[Kdogg788]

It wouldn't work because your reinforcements would be coming in piecemeal as players die off in their first mech, therefore minimizing the benefit of ever having a second mech because the clan force can focus the new mechs as they come on the field.

-k

[Kelb]

the crying will happen no matter what PGI does. So bring it and we will make the best of it.

[Sadistic Savior]

Termius, on 30 January 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

If they implement clans where IS have the number superiority then people will need to focus fire. Just because our tech is obsolete doesn't mean it can't kill.

I don't know why people think of it as obsolete. Slightly longer ranges makes it better than previous tech...does not make previous tech "obsolete". An enemy AC/20 is still going to hurt just as much even if yours can hit slightly farther out.

The IS was already recovering Lostech at the start of the Clan invasion. IS already has some ER and Ultra and Pulse and Streak weapons. Clans just have more variety of them. Clans have Omnimechs, but IS has variants of each mech model too. The differences are not as dramatic as they seam IMO.

[Xenosphobatic]

Honestly, I've not seen any indication that there's ANY way to introduce ANYTHING in this game (or at least, in the forums) without massive QQing for a good long while. Can they balance it? Absolutely. I truly believe that PGI is actually trying to balance the game and make people happy, the problem is that so many players started with the Streakcat/missleboat game, and they assume that tactics is putting the yellow circle in the red square.

[Sadistic Savior]

Another idea: Once the ELO system is in place, they could give players the option to fight on even terms with Clan mechs. 12 green Clan mech pilots vs 12 Advanced IS mech pilots for example.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kdogg788, on 31 January 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

So very true.

It's an absolute waste of time to fret over the canon details, and a waste of time for most players to go up against tech that is ridiculously superior in a game where they've paid real money for some of their equipment. Clan tech if and when it gets here will be toned down whether the TT diehards like it or not.

-k

At which point, aside from cosmetics, what point would their be to introducing an enemy force so advanced they were originally thought to be Aliens?

This only works one way.....

1) Clans are the Steamroller from Hell they are supposed to be. Their weapons are 250-300 years more advanced than the IS right off the bat (although they actually have gotten lazy in development over the last 50 years), and absolutely MUST reflect that. They are faster, run cooler, hit harder and better armored than their IS counters.

2)They work the Metagame to "encourage" the Clans to invade and fight "properly". Meaning that Clanners are encouraged through the rewards to adhere to Zellbrigen, and accrue bonuses for so doing, and serious penalties when they do not. The Matchmaker will have to be set specifically to include a Clan/Inner Sphere set up, and Clanners will have to be dropped into numerically smaller teams, which only works if.....

3) There is a hard line drawn between Clan and Inner Sphere, and one simply cannot equip Clan Tech on to Inner Sphere Mechs (which they actually could not do initially, with the exception of Wolfs Dragoons, whom no one gets to play anyhow) and Clan Mechs CANNOT drop in a Inner Sphere Team. (At least initially).

and yeah, there will be lots of angst. A few other not "mandatory" ideas, but that I think would work and help maybe integrate stuff.......

Eventually Clan Weapons do start making it over to the IS, and that is easily addressed in the future with the Module system, by making a nice, really expensive Module called "Clan Tech Enabler". Mechs with that can NOW equip Clan Tech. And at some point, possibly make a "Victor Steiner Davion" and "Hohiro Kurita" Daishi twins Hero Mechs. The upside being access to Clan Weapons and such, the down side, would be, that since they don't have access to Clan Technicians and Weapons Logisitcs, the Hard Points would probably be fixed, or VERY limited, whereas a traditional Omni supported by Clan Logistics, would be totally open on Hard Points.

Even with Clanners though, the rank and file don't get to gussy their Omnis anyway they want. That is why almost all Pilots drove the "canon" stock variants of each chassis. You could drive a Prime, or an A, B, C variant, but most pilots didn't get to mix and match. That is again, easily addressed in the Pilot Tree, as one "ranks" up their Mech, it would allow for "open customization)

I have an inkling that we will find that there has been a lot of Double Blind work going on from PGI, and that the Pilot Trees and Module Slots and such will play a very large part in balancing the Metagame come launch.

[Taemien]

Alright, I love the fiction just like any other Btechie out there. But even I will say I don't want my Clan opponents following Zelbrigen. That would be ridiculous. I would toast 4 of them before they could even react. Thats if you can even encourage them to play like that.

No, they need to play like we do to stay competitive. I've played against Clans in Planetary Leagues where I was forced to use IS tech before. Its possible to do and very possible to succeed. In fact my unit was one of the few to annihilate a clan in that particular league.

All that needs to be done is like I said before:

Reduce their torsotwist and arm movements in comparison to their IS counterparts. Forcing them to use the strengths of their weapons in long range direct fire and fast skirmishing roles. This way IS mechs will have a better range of movement and will be better at brawling which is an Inner Sphere tactic anyway.

In addition, IS will have access to indirect fire from LRMs. Clan LRMs cannot indirect fire (they are direct fire, hence the lack of minimum range).

To add to this, do not allow Clan to share targeting info (no C3).


This would balance the two techs and make them play differently. Not simply have one side have better tech.

[Kylere]

I will worry about this, and MC pricing and such when it happens. This is pre-whining.